The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Hambo]

I hate to say it, but we had 3 Invincible class carriers. 'Vince is in 'deep storage' (effectively she'll never go to see again, unless we spend about £50 - £100 M on her). Lusty is at sea, because of spares robbed from Vince & the Ark is only still going because she's had the least use (till now) out of all 3.

Invincible class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The likelyhood is that we'll be left with just the Ark beyond 2014, until QE / PoW come on stream, putting more strain on Albion & Bulwark in the command & control role.


On the back of your comments about Eagle & Hermes, well part of the issue comes down to ability & support.

India, at the time she recieved Hermes, was able to fully run & support her, as most of her Navy was WW II relics & cast off's from many other nations, with little indigenious ships. In the last 25 years, she's systematically dragged her navy into the latter end of the 20th century, slowly replacing ships as time progressed, modernising as she goes, updating her shipbuild facilities & producing her own vessels.

She now has one of the largest navies across the globe & is still progressing the change to a 21st century navy, by upgrading older ships with new weapons systems & equipment, at a pace that suits her economy & growing capability. I'm also sure that if a similar ship to Hermes was on offer right now, she'd bite the hand off of the country that was offering it !

We (the UK, have always went down the road of replacing & redesigning 'the wheel' every 15 - 20 years. We now consider ships like Ark & Lusty, as dinosaurs.

Why ?

Because we have tecnologically advanced in such a way that we cannot support equipment that's 20 - 25 years old, as we don't have the parts, don't have the money to start reproducing the parts & don't have a technological facility / technological knowledge within our armed forces to maintain these parts.

We have out grown our roots & moved on. This become all apparent when we look at things like coal / steel & other heavy industries. In 1979 we had about 150 - 200 coal mines producing coal across the country, feeding about 50 steel mills & demand for domestic fossil fuels.

In 2010, we're lucky if we've got 5 - 10 active coal mines & our steel mills are all but closed.

We are therfore driven to continue head-long down the route we're going, until 'an event of historical importance' hits our nation & makes as 'think outside the box'.




We have nationally, shot ourselves in the foot many times doing just that.

#1 govt decides to spend money designing & developing a 'weapons system'. 4 years go by until an election takes place & #1 govt becomes the opposition, leaving #2 govt to come in & kill the development of said system, to save money.

Don't believe me ? Have a look at the TSR 2 fiasco.

BAC TSR-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It maybe 50 years ago, but If Mr Cameron & his cronies don't get their acts together, CVF (ship 02) / Trident replacement / Type 26 could go the same way as CVA...

SA :gun

So SA, for a technophobe like me, could you help please?

I assume on an Invincible the GT''s drive the turbines which are linked to those huge gearboxes, that drive the shafts, that propel the ships? So there is a large spare part and engineering branch designed to support those type of ships. I assume the T42 andT22 had the same? Does the T23?

But....The Type 45 and CVF will have GT's that provide electricity that powers electric motors that drive a shorterned shaft directly by electric power? So therefore there are specialisms and sailors that you dont need for T45 and CVF and there is a whole supply chain and support network that you dont need from the earlier generation but you do need to procure new technologies and suppliers for your 2 CVF, 6 T45'S and (hopefully) at least 15 T26's when the T23'sgo?

So I assume that in effect the UK will expect industry to support less than 25 ships over the next three decades, so we will have a devils job trying to keep companies going when there are no more than 50 RR GT's, electric motors, heat exchangers, pumps, gear linkages etc in use or required at any one time. Does that mean that the MOD will order the minimum numbers of spare parts as possible on cost grounds, and when certain companies go to the wall, get merged, sold or move overseas we will reach the same problem servicing our new "cutting edge technology"?? Thats very depressing.

So perhaps in 20 years we will have these six T45's eating up maintenance pounds and someone will say that its too expensive to remanufacture the parts and they will be culled? .

If that is the dismal state of UK industry , is there a workable alternative? Less technologically risky programmes? Buy foreign?

 

[1805]

So SA, for a technophobe like me, could you help please?

I assume on an Invincible the GT''s drive the turbines which are linked to those huge gearboxes, that drive the shafts, that propel the ships? So there is a large spare part and engineering branch designed to support those type of ships. I assume the T42 andT22 had the same? Does the T23?

But....The Type 45 and CVF will have GT's that provide electricity that powers electric motors that drive a shorterned shaft directly by electric power? So therefore there are specialisms and sailors that you dont need for T45 and CVF and there is a whole supply chain and support network that you dont need from the earlier generation but you do need to procure new technologies and suppliers for your 2 CVF, 6 T45'S and (hopefully) at least 15 T26's when the T23'sgo?

So I assume that in effect the UK will expect industry to support less than 25 ships over the next three decades, so we will have a devils job trying to keep companies going when there are no more than 50 RR GT's, electric motors, heat exchangers, pumps, gear linkages etc in use or required at any one time. Does that mean that the MOD will order the minimum numbers of spare parts as possible on cost grounds, and when certain companies go to the wall, get merged, sold or move overseas we will reach the same problem servicing our new "cutting edge technology"?? Thats very depressing.

So perhaps in 20 years we will have these six T45's eating up maintenance pounds and someone will say that its too expensive to remanufacture the parts and they will be culled? .

If that is the dismal state of UK industry , is there a workable alternative? Less technologically risky programmes? Buy foreign?

I don't think these are ordered in such volumes that they are mass production line items. When originally constructed they are fairly bespoke items. The T45 & CVF actually use very different engine. The WR21 is very expensive and advance and sadly it looks now like it will not be built in very large numbers, but will probably be very influential on future design.

The MT30 is very powerful and cheaper, but 2 are installed in each LCS so production should be healthy for RR. GT design/construction is a real lead for UK and we should support. Everytime we buy kit abroad we should push for countertrade deals for RR GTs. Concentrated export orders are key to a healthy future for our defence industry.

 

[Troothsayer]

Reports at the moment in the press suggest that whilst nothing is off the table, the Royal Navy may not come out of the SDR that badly. i.e - getting CVF and at least something to fly off them.

However, in the mail there's a suggestion that a number of SSN's may be mothballed, I wasn't aware we had that many currenty anyway!

 

[swerve]

In 2010, we're lucky if we've got 5 - 10 active coal mines & our steel mills are all but closed.

In the depths of the recession, we're still producing a million tons of steel a month. We produce much less low-value bulk steel, & more high-value high-grade steel than in 1979.

 

[MrQuintus]

In the depths of the recession, we're still producing a million tons of steel a month. We produce much less low-value bulk steel, & more high-value high-grade steel than in 1979.

Lets just hope forgemasters gets that loan so we can become world class at large casting again.

 

[AndrewMI]

Lets just hope forgemasters gets that loan so we can become world class at large casting again.

That is they key. We cannot compete on cost, but we can compete on quality.

I believe that the same principle applies to the RN. there is no huge problem having a small (ish) navy provided the ships can influence events.

I await the SDR with baited breath. the only area i see the RN possibly losing out on is JSF - and that i believe will be a postponement, delay rather than a cancellation. RN will likely be key in future and may even gain significantly in the long run.

 

[harryriedl]

That is they key. We cannot compete on cost, but we can compete on quality.

I believe that the same principle applies to the RN. there is no huge problem having a small (ish) navy provided the ships can influence events.

I await the SDR with baited breath. the only area i see the RN possibly losing out on is JSF - and that i believe will be a postponement, delay rather than a cancellation. RN will likely be key in future and may even gain significantly in the long run.

It helps that Fox has made many statements which are pro navy.

 

[MrQuintus]

I don't see the Navy losing it's F35s, however their is a good chance the the RAF will get a big chunk taken out of its fast air capabilities, we're due 7 squadrons of Eurofighter and I think those will come on stream (replacing F3 and Jaguar) but when it comes to replacing the GR4 and Harrier squadrons they'll be lucky to replace those 9 squadrons. any Purchase will be delayed until the airframe hours on the GR4s start running out, and then they'll be lucky to get 4 squadron in replacement. The bulk of RAF aircraft procurement for the future will be UCAVs.

 

[riksavage]

I don't see the Navy losing it's F35s, however their is a good chance the the RAF will get a big chunk taken out of its fast air capabilities, we're due 7 squadrons of Eurofighter and I think those will come on stream (replacing F3 and Jaguar) but when it comes to replacing the GR4 and Harrier squadrons they'll be lucky to replace those 9 squadrons. any Purchase will be delayed until the airframe hours on the GR4s start running out, and then they'll be lucky to get 4 squadron in replacement. The bulk of RAF aircraft procurement for the future will be UCAVs.

I hope the UK decides to focus on maintaining a strategic raiding capability to deal with scenarios akin to A-Stan and what we witnessed in Sierra Leone. This will ensure the amphib fleet and strike are guaranteed. F35B's bring so much capability and flexibility to the table (both CAS & CAP), they can deploy from land and just about every single existing or planned flat-top in NATO's inventory. I would be happy in these austere times to see Typhoon restricted to (UK/Falklands CAP) and F35B's used for expeditionary CAS/CAP, supplemented by UCAV. Adapt the MR4's to carry Stormshadow, these assets coupled with the long range strike of the seven Astute's and Britain maintains a balanced adaptable force, which can strike anywhere.

The UK needs to pull out of Germany and leave the defence of mainland Europe to continental powers. Germany with it's well equipped heavy formations and political issues limiting to out of area war-fighting operations should focus on that role. Let the UK focus on out of area expeditionary warfare ideally suited to an island nation, we must put to bed the cold war mentality and move on.

I'm more and more confident the carriers + F35B will scrape through at the expense of RAF fast air and heavy armoured formations.

 

[kev 99]

I don't see the Navy losing it's F35s, however their is a good chance the the RAF will get a big chunk taken out of its fast air capabilities, we're due 7 squadrons of Eurofighter and I think those will come on stream (replacing F3 and Jaguar) but when it comes to replacing the GR4 and Harrier squadrons they'll be lucky to replace those 9 squadrons. any Purchase will be delayed until the airframe hours on the GR4s start running out, and then they'll be lucky to get 4 squadron in replacement. The bulk of RAF aircraft procurement for the future will be UCAVs.

There is no guarantee that the RAF will get 7 squadrons of Typhoons, I'd say at the moment it's looking more and more like it will be 5 squadrons at best as there's a good chance that the Government will not order Tranche 3b.

 

[harryriedl]

There is no guarantee that the RAF will get 7 squadrons of Typhoons, I'd say at the moment it's looking more and more like it will be 5 squadrons at best as there's a good chance that the Government will not order Tranche 3b.

I think that the Euro consortium will offer the partners a very good deal and just where them down and get the 3B bought because they are already offering a 10b deal on the last aircraft.

I agree that F35 and carriers will come through the review. Deferment and slowing down on some programs I think will be the order of the day as Fox has said that equipment programs cuts aren't worth it as most of the money has been spent.

The F35 will be a revelation for Harrier Pilots Supersonic, stealthy and a good war-load (now a buddy refueling pack would increase their usefulness on the CVF)

 

[kev 99]

I think that the Euro consortium will offer the partners a very good deal and just where them down and get the 3B bought because they are already offering a 10b deal on the last aircraft.

Well that's what I'd like to happen but I'm not really convinced, plus of course there's also potential for selling off early production aircraft as well, I think things are far less set in stone for RAF Typhoon numbers than they appeared just a couple of years ago.

 

[harryriedl]

Well that's what I'd like to happen but I'm not really convinced, plus of course there's also potential for selling off early production aircraft as well, I think things are far less set in stone for RAF Typhoon numbers than they appeared just a couple of years ago.

they managed to do it over T3 by splitting it and offering i think a financing deal to to push the pain into the distance. They can do something similar i.e not the split but financing so that it can push the Euro nations to complete the percheses.

I would be surprised that the Germans wouldn't their want their full allocation as unlike other members they aren't buying another jet

 

[swerve]

The UK needs to pull out of Germany and leave the defence of mainland Europe to continental powers.

Because of past blunders by the MoD & government, starting in the 1980s but carried on by both Tories & Labour, it would cost a lot of money to withdraw from Germany. We lack anywhere to put the troops in the UK! The bases to which they might have been withdrawn, the housing, etc. have been sold off. And since being sold, the value of the land & remaining buildings have greatly increased.

Relocating all the units now in Germany would cost a fortune. Partial relocation could be done, but it would need a considerable improvement in the efficiency & financial management of the MoD to avoid vast expense. We'd have to identify currently under-used facilities in the UK, be prepared to transfer facilities between services & mix units from different services on the same sites, undertake some refurbishment without the usual waste & overpaying, & take account of relocation needs of all three services when planning reductions of numbers.

I suspect such a programme would be impossible unless several senior officers & civil servants were shot.

 

[FluffyThoughts]

Because of past blunders by the MoD & government, starting in the 1980s but carried on by both Tories & Labour, it would cost a lot of money to withdraw from Germany. We lack anywhere to put the troops in the UK! The bases to which they might have been withdrawn, the housing, etc. have been sold off. And since being sold, the value of the land & remaining buildings have greatly increased.

Relocating all the units now in Germany would cost a fortune. Partial relocation could be done, but it would need a considerable improvement in the efficiency & financial management of the MoD to avoid vast expense. We'd have to identify currently under-used facilities in the UK, be prepared to transfer facilities between services & mix units from different services on the same sites, undertake some refurbishment without the usual waste & overpaying, & take account of relocation needs of all three services when planning reductions of numbers.

I suspect such a programme would be impossible unless several senior officers & civil servants were shot.

RAF Cottesmore and Kinloss?

If cuts are going to happen then - at least - these facilities can be utilised to mothball excess CR2 and AS90s. I'd also have to agree with Kev that Tranche 3B is a likely cut - along with FRES - as Germany, Italy and Spain are cutting defence spending simultaneously.

Something I picked-up at Military Photos - which may be no more than a rumour, but... - is the possibility of the Dutch disposing of HrMS Rotterdam. Could we pick this up on the cheap as a replacement for RFA Reliant/Argos...?

 

[AndrewMI]

The F35 will be a revelation for Harrier Pilots Supersonic, stealthy and a good war-load (now a buddy refueling pack would increase their usefulness on the CVF)

That is a major question - the other aircraft due to fly from QE and PoW.

What sort of AWACS craft will be available (is this MASC?)
What sort of onboard delivery aircraft?
What sort of (if any) air to air refueling craft will be available?

The Osprey could perform some or all of these tasks, but it would not be cheap....

 

[harryriedl]

That is a major question - the other aircraft due to fly from QE and PoW.

What sort of AWACS craft will be available (is this MASC?)
What sort of onboard delivery aircraft?
What sort of (if any) air to air refueling craft will be available?

The Osprey could perform some or all of these tasks, but it would not be cheap....

MASC is what I imagine would be initially AEW aircraft replaced by what will be the intersting question as it could be anything from UAV based (questions on workload and reliability ect with that solution) or Merlin or Osprey.

COD I imagine would be the same what ever helo's aren't on ASW or AEW again I imagine Osprey would be the Gucci solution or again UAVs could be very useful for the task (such as the USMC and Army programs for logistic UAV's)

Air to Air tankers would be very desirable F35 with buddy packs im sure that Ive seen some images of Ospreys tanking JSF's.

Sadly all very expensive programs

 

[Moonstone]

There is no guarantee that the RAF will get 7 squadrons of Typhoons, I'd say at the moment it's looking more and more like it will be 5 squadrons at best as there's a good chance that the Government will not order Tranche 3b.

If we cancel the Tranche 3B Typhoon order then we will have to make some pretty expensive penalty payments to the Eurofighter partners in compensation - at least that's what Eurofigther claim . I would have thought It would be better to buy the planned total in full and then sell any surplus Typhoons abroad .

With the benefit of hindsight around 250 Typhoons would have been just about the right number for the RAF & FAA combined had the latter batches been built as the proposed 'Sea Typhoon' variant . While the Sea Typhoon would not offer 'UK PLC' the potential long term industrial benefits having a slice of the enormous F35 programme will give us I'm quite confident the aircraft itself (suitably modified) would be perfectly adequate for the FAA's needs .

Another example of the lack of long term planning within the MOD ?

 

[harryriedl]

If we cancel the Tranche 3B Typhoon order then we will have to make some pretty expensive penalty payments to the Eurofighter partners in compensation - at least that's what Eurofigther claim . I would have thought It would be better to buy the planned total in full and then sell any surplus Typhoons abroad .

With the benefit of hindsight around 250 Typhoons would have been just about the right number for the RAF & FAA combined had the latter batches been built as the proposed 'Sea Typhoon' variant . While the Sea Typhoon would not offer 'UK PLC' the potential long term industrial benefits having a slice of the enormous F35 programme will give us I'm quite confident the aircraft itself (suitably modified) would be perfectly adequate for the FAA's needs .

Another example of the lack of long term planning within the MOD ?

maybe but Sea Typhoon was completely unworkable desgin and would have cost a fortune to work (and the UK if it was going down that route should have bought and anglicized Rafal right when the split happen in past)

 

[swerve]

If we cancel the Tranche 3B Typhoon order then we will have to make some pretty expensive penalty payments to the Eurofighter partners in compensation - at least that's what Eurofigther claim .

Depends. If the other partners also don't want T3B, then we're off the hook.

T3B won't start being delivered until 2016 or so, so there's time for public finances to improve. Fingers crossed.

I would have thought It would be better to buy the planned total in full and then sell any surplus Typhoons abroad .

Could be done. Sell T1 to anyone who wants very high performance aircraft for air defence, but is content with secondhand.

RAF Cottesmore and Kinloss?

If cuts are going to happen then - at least - these facilities can be utilised to mothball excess CR2 and AS90s.

Good idea. Mothballing is the best thing to do with them. Much better than scrapping, or selling for peanuts. They could come in handy someday.

I'd also have to agree with Kev that Tranche 3B is a likely cut - along with FRES

FRES has been a money sink for years, without producing any hardware. We need to overhaul the procurement process. It gobbles up vast amounts of money, & far too often (as with FRES) all the money is spent on the process, & none on the equipment. We could have bought a few hundred Boxer, for example, for the money we've spent not buying them.