Nowadays..Israel and Turkey.
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What next?
I ask myself why this had to happen at this time. It already enough stuff going on in the Middle East. Seem like they were trying to get attention to Gaza again. It's one thing after another, when will it stop who know? Both side got a reason to be upset about this. Since there was Turkey citizens killed and you have Israelis military personel wounded also. This is a tough position for both countries.
I ask myself why this had to happen at this time. It already enough stuff going on in the Middle East. Seem like they were trying to get attention to Gaza again. It's one thing after another, when will it stop who know? Both side got a reason to be upset about this. Since there was Turkey citizens killed and you have Israelis military personel wounded also. This is a tough position for both countries.
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GermanHerman
Active Member
It was a horrible stupid move by the Israeli goverment...
first it was not very smat to board the ship in international waters instead of just waiting a little bit more, maybe escorting the convoy into a harbour of their choice and searching the cargo then.
Secondly I don't understand the boarding anyway... what did they expect those few guys to find? Some one please explain this to me, I'm sure here is someone around who knows about the sense of this procedure.
But also I have to say the reaction of some of the activists was realy stupid too, everyone knows israel and it's armed forces have quite some reputation for their tough responses on hostile behaviour.
I realy don't understand both sides in this, I just think it is another sad chapter in this whole drama called middle east.
first it was not very smat to board the ship in international waters instead of just waiting a little bit more, maybe escorting the convoy into a harbour of their choice and searching the cargo then.
Secondly I don't understand the boarding anyway... what did they expect those few guys to find? Some one please explain this to me, I'm sure here is someone around who knows about the sense of this procedure.
But also I have to say the reaction of some of the activists was realy stupid too, everyone knows israel and it's armed forces have quite some reputation for their tough responses on hostile behaviour.
I realy don't understand both sides in this, I just think it is another sad chapter in this whole drama called middle east.
Bergerpollm
New Member
They were protecting the blockade.
I recommend you go to Youtube and watch as the Commandos(WHO WERE CARRYING PAINTBALL GUNS) boarded the ships. On the Turkish ship especially, they were attacked. The purpose of the commandos was to redirect the ship to Ashdod and than allow these people to port at Gaza City BUT THERE WAS WEAPONS ON THE SHIP, SO THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED TO ENTER!
I recommend you go to Youtube and watch as the Commandos(WHO WERE CARRYING PAINTBALL GUNS) boarded the ships. On the Turkish ship especially, they were attacked. The purpose of the commandos was to redirect the ship to Ashdod and than allow these people to port at Gaza City BUT THERE WAS WEAPONS ON THE SHIP, SO THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED TO ENTER!
Mavi Marmara has been thoroughly searched by the Israelis. The weapons they have shown consisted of a few knives (mostly kitchen knives, several pocket knives, & a couple of daggers), four pepper spray canisters (three still in their blister packs), several catapults & a bag of marbles, a collection of tools which could be used as weapons (hammers, picks, large spanners, a small axes of the sort I use for splitting kindling) & (mostly) a number of improvised weapons: metal bars & sticks. None of those posed the slightest threat to the security of Israel, & they were not cited by Israel as justification for barring it from docking in Gaza. That is a separate issue.They were protecting the blockade.
I recommend you go to Youtube and watch as the Commandos(WHO WERE CARRYING PAINTBALL GUNS) boarded the ships. On the Turkish ship especially, they were attacked. The purpose of the commandos was to redirect the ship to Ashdod and than allow these people to port at Gaza City BUT THERE WAS WEAPONS ON THE SHIP, SO THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED TO ENTER!
The commandos were carrying pistols, as well as non-lethal weapons.
Bergerpollm
New Member
The soldiers were attacked by the people on Mavi Mara, and on two other ships. However, on the other two ships I'm not to sure what happened. Keep in mind had this been the U.S., this wouldn't have even been news. This is simply fueling the Arab cause, which is to wipeout Israel. However, (off-topic) militarily it's difficult for the Syrians to conquer the Golan Heights.Mavi Marmara has been thoroughly searched by the Israelis. The weapons they have shown consisted of a few knives (mostly kitchen knives, several pocket knives, & a couple of daggers), four pepper spray canisters (three still in their blister packs), several catapults & a bag of marbles, a collection of tools which could be used as weapons (hammers, picks, large spanners, a small axes of the sort I use for splitting kindling) & (mostly) a number of improvised weapons: metal bars & sticks. None of those posed the slightest threat to the security of Israel, & they were not cited by Israel as justification for barring it from docking in Gaza. That is a separate issue.
The commandos were carrying pistols, as well as non-lethal weapons.
I've actually been to the Golan Heights, and the Israelis have setup massive fortifications of Anti-Aircraft weapons and Anti-Tank Canals so if the Syria and Iran want to invade they'd have to bomb the crap out of the Golan Heights.
This entire "Freedom Flotilla" Operation was to make the Israelis look like murderers. They aren't, and they've done an incredible jobs of avoiding civilian casualties. I standby the Israelis because they were in their full right to stop the flotilla.
By the way, Two Israeli Soldiers were killed on Mavi Mara. Where are you getting your information of "light weapons"
Bergerpollm
New Member
1. Paintball markers are not a weapon.Mavi Marmara has been thoroughly searched by the Israelis. The weapons they have shown consisted of a few knives (mostly kitchen knives, several pocket knives, & a couple of daggers), four pepper spray canisters (three still in their blister packs), several catapults & a bag of marbles, a collection of tools which could be used as weapons (hammers, picks, large spanners, a small axes of the sort I use for splitting kindling) & (mostly) a number of improvised weapons: metal bars & sticks. None of those posed the slightest threat to the security of Israel, & they were not cited by Israel as justification for barring it from docking in Gaza. That is a separate issue.
The commandos were carrying pistols, as well as non-lethal weapons.
2. The Flotilla was dangerous because chances are these men(like some UNRWA people) would sign rockets and send them into Southern Israel firing them at like Sderot and causing Israeli civilian casualties
3. Israel, (although I disagree with the blockade) were in their full legal right to intercept the ship
4. The only illegal thing about this was intercepting the ship in International Waters. The Commandos killed the "activists" in self-defense.
5. Sorry for the double post. This issue makes me very emotional.
From official Israeli press releases.By the way, Two Israeli Soldiers were killed on Mavi Mara. Where are you getting your information of "light weapons"
One (maybe two - there's been some inconsistency in the reports) Israeli commando had his pistol seized & used against the commandos. That is the only firearm (or firearms) reported by the Israeli government as being used by the activists on the ship. The Israeli account is that the guns were recovered empty, thus proving the activists had fired them - but that is evidence, not proof. I've not found any accounts of bullet wounds to any commando.
The weapons I described are those shown by the Israelis to the press, & shown in photographs released by Israel. There are no heavier weapons: no guns, no rockets, not even any swords. Tools which can be used as weapons, & weapons improvised from materials to hand, apart from a couple of daggers (one of them ornamental) & the pepper spray canisters.
If you want to say the Israeli government is lying, & there were actually heavier weapons, go ahead. I doubt you'll be taken seriously, though.
Where do you get your information, e.g. on Israeli deaths? Could you please provide your source for that? All I can find is accounts of two 'critically' injured, one of who has since been reported as having brain damage, from blows to the head.
I suggest you get someone to shoot you in the face with one at short range. Then come back here & give us your impressions. The Shayetet (per their own accounts) also used stun grenades & tear gas.1. Paintball markers are not a weapon.
Had to comment here.1. Paintball markers are not a weapon.
2. The Flotilla was dangerous because chances are these men(like some UNRWA people) would sign rockets and send them into Southern Israel firing them at like Sderot and causing Israeli civilian casualties
3. Israel, (although I disagree with the blockade) were in their full legal right to intercept the ship
4. The only illegal thing about this was intercepting the ship in International Waters. The Commandos killed the "activists" in self-defense.
5. Sorry for the double post. This issue makes me very emotional.
1.They didnt just have paintball guns, and the fact is how where the activists to know what the IDF had? If a commando was being dropped from a helicopter right infront of me firing something ide either run or start hitting him just like they did.
2.UNRWA signing rockets? Your joking right? And even if they did big deal, signing rockets isnt illegal, i think the IDF was more worried about them bringing rockets which turned out to be complete rubbish.
3. Israel had no legal right, the UN has ruled there blockade illegal, meaning they had no reason for any of it.
4.Self defence? First off it was them attacking, the activists had every right to attack pirates/terrorists illegally boarding there boat in International water and why cant trained IDF commando's stop a bunch of activists with sticks without killing a bunch of them?
Yeah ! You got a point on that why they couldnt stop a bunch of activists with sticks. That why when conducting operation you just dont know what going to happen. Anyone that go on a mission has some kind of worry about the mission. You never think you going have a simple mission thing can go wrong. Israel kind of look bad on this one. Sometimes when you say never again you can overeact to things. I pray Israel dont over react and start a big war that will make the middle east a hell zone. If it was in international water that dont help Israel case. You can't stand up for someone in the wrong. They should have waited for it to hit there waters.Had to comment here.
1.They didnt just have paintball guns, and the fact is how where the activists to know what the IDF had? If a commando was being dropped from a helicopter right infront of me firing something ide either run or start hitting him just like they did.
2.UNRWA signing rockets? Your joking right? And even if they did big deal, signing rockets isnt illegal, i think the IDF was more worried about them bringing rockets which turned out to be complete rubbish.
3. Israel had no legal right, the UN has ruled there blockade illegal, meaning they had no reason for any of it.
4.Self defence? First off it was them attacking, the activists had every right to attack pirates/terrorists illegally boarding there boat in International water and why cant trained IDF commando's stop a bunch of activists with sticks without killing a bunch of them?
I would like to see the source of this information too... otherwise this looks too much like somali pirates, only more deadly.By the way, Two Israeli Soldiers were killed on Mavi Mara. Where are you getting your information of "light weapons"
toastonrye
New Member
According to the unbiased news and some of the videos released by the IDF, it seems as if the "activists" were not really activists, in the videos you can clearly see the commandos being mauled and attacked right as they boarded the ship. The Mavi could have shipped the "aid" to the israeli port of ashdod for inspection and they have it transported to gaza.
Oh and the weapons they used are a lot worse than paintball guns. a paintball gun cannot kill you and a knife can. and paintball cant kill you but a metal chain can. a paintball gun cant kill you but a butcher knife can. a paintball cant kill you but getting bludgeoned in the head with a bat can. a paintball gun cant kill you but being thrown of a ship can.
a paintball gun cant kill you but disarming a israeli commando of his live-fire sidearm can bring on some self-defense on the part of the israelis.
--If you were to board a ship to only be mauled by a group of people and then have your side-arm stolen off of you, would you think twice before defending yourself and in the worst case having to disable or kill a attacker? i wouldn't, i would want to get home to my family that night
the question i ask is.
Why if your humanitarians would you pass up on transporting the goods with ease and without confrontation to gaza through a israeli port? If the people of gaza needed the aid so much why didnt the activists do the right thing and just go through the correct protocols?
It seems as if the turkish aid vessel was just trying to start a fire with israel and sway the public opinion of israel to the bad side.
Oh and the weapons they used are a lot worse than paintball guns. a paintball gun cannot kill you and a knife can. and paintball cant kill you but a metal chain can. a paintball gun cant kill you but a butcher knife can. a paintball cant kill you but getting bludgeoned in the head with a bat can. a paintball gun cant kill you but being thrown of a ship can.
a paintball gun cant kill you but disarming a israeli commando of his live-fire sidearm can bring on some self-defense on the part of the israelis.
--If you were to board a ship to only be mauled by a group of people and then have your side-arm stolen off of you, would you think twice before defending yourself and in the worst case having to disable or kill a attacker? i wouldn't, i would want to get home to my family that night
the question i ask is.
Why if your humanitarians would you pass up on transporting the goods with ease and without confrontation to gaza through a israeli port? If the people of gaza needed the aid so much why didnt the activists do the right thing and just go through the correct protocols?
It seems as if the turkish aid vessel was just trying to start a fire with israel and sway the public opinion of israel to the bad side.
Your looking at it backwards, the IDF are the ones who illegally boarded there vessel and the people on board where defending themselves.If you were to board a ship to only be mauled by a group of people and then have your side-arm stolen off of you, would you think twice before defending yourself and in the worst case having to disable or kill a attacker? i wouldn't, i would want to get home to my family that night
I also dont believe alot of the "official" stories as its strange the IDF have only released short edited clips and havent released the whole thing showing what happened before they where attacked or what happened after the initial attack.
They also confiscated or destroyed most of the footage taken by the people on the boats. That to me says they are hiding something especially when some of those people on board where journalists.
First if Israel's blockade is illegal (as the UN has said many times it is) then the correct protocol is to take it straight to Gaza yourself.Why if your humanitarians would you pass up on transporting the goods with ease and without confrontation to gaza through a israeli port? If the people of gaza needed the aid so much why didnt the activists do the right thing and just go through the correct protocols?
It seems as if the turkish aid vessel was just trying to start a fire with israel and sway the public opinion of israel to the bad side.
And secondly the UN and plenty of NGO groups has said there aid is often not allowed to pass through Israeli checkpoints so why would the activists trust there's to be allowed in?
toastonrye
New Member
where have you read that the IDF destroyed these tapes. this is common bias that the media as portrayed.They also confiscated or destroyed most of the footage taken by the people on the boats. That to me says they are hiding something especially when some of those people on board where journalists.
let me turn the table real quick. -- Where have you seen the footage of the IDf being mauled and attacked by the activists--- nowhere because the "aid workers" didnt show that for a reason.
On the issue of the blockade being illegal. - i believe that protecting your countries citizens from a threat (weapons being shipped to hamas) is totally legitimate.
Furthermore- do you think it is right to condemn israel over there blockade when TURKEY the source of the aid vessel has a complete blockade on armenia. this is being completely hypocritical.
-p.s thanks for ur input
Basically everywhere, There where Australian journalists and a camerawomen on board one of the ships who have also said there footage and camera's where taken.where have you read that the IDF destroyed these tapes. this is common bias that the media as portrayed.
I dont know what country you live in but here in Aus every major news network has shown the IDF's footage. Perhaps its just your country that is biased.let me turn the table real quick. -- Where have you seen the footage of the IDf being mauled and attacked by the activists--- nowhere because the "aid workers" didnt show that for a reason.
I believe that Hamas is fighting a legitimate fight (not that they always do it in ways i respect) and have every right to have weapons. No matter what you personally think of Hamas they are the democratically elected leader's and are fighting against a country who is illegally occupying 95% of Palestinian territory.On the issue of the blockade being illegal. - i believe that protecting your countries citizens from a threat (weapons being shipped to hamas) is totally legitimate.
Before you dispute the occupation, both the UN and the Hague have ruled it illegal and not a single country in the world (including the US) recognizes Israels claims on it.
I totally agree Turkey itself shouldnt comment, i also have issues with how they treat there Kurdish population, but that doesnt change the fact what Israel did is wrong and mean that we should just ignore it.Furthermore- do you think it is right to condemn israel over there blockade when TURKEY the source of the aid vessel has a complete blockade on armenia. this is being completely hypocritical.
Just because Turkey shouldnt comment doesnt mean other countries cant.
AFAIK it's been shown in all the Western media. Here in the UK, certainly, & I've heard from people in the USA, Canada, Germany - oh, too many countries to list - who've seen it aired.let me turn the table real quick. -- Where have you seen the footage of the IDf being mauled and attacked by the activists---
Claiming bias on the basis of false statements about what has been published, & by who, is a common propaganda tactic. It identifies those who use it as dishonest.
Get it right. Turkey closed the border during the Armenia-Azerbaijan war, & it's remained closed since. But Turkey makes no attempt to interfere with traffic across Armenias other borders, or with Armenias air traffic. Israel blockades Gaza by air & sea. It bombed the only airport in 2001, broke up the runway with bulldozers in 2002, & forbids any light aircraft which might be able to land on the short intact stretches of taxiway from flying over Gaza.Furthermore- do you think it is right to condemn israel over there blockade when TURKEY the source of the aid vessel has a complete blockade on armenia
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it is totally unfair to compare these two situations, every country has right to close its own airspace and border. It is crystal clear that israil is not closing only its own borders also cutting gaza's all other options of communicating with the rest of the worldFurthermore- do you think it is right to condemn israel over there blockade when TURKEY the source of the aid vessel has a complete blockade on armenia. this is being completely hypocritical.
-p.s thanks for ur input
Would you like to clarify that please? Which Arab countries have the aim of 'wiping' Israel out? I have no problems with you being pro-Israeli but at least get your fact rights.This is simply fueling the Arab cause, which is to wipeout Israel. H
Tell that to the thousands of Arab civilians killed over the years in Lebanon and the 'occupied territories'... All the parties involved have blood on their hands.they've done an incredible jobs of avoiding civilian casualties. "
A way around the blockade would be for Eqypt to open its border and ensure, together with UN or other inspectors, that aid entering Gaza is indeed humanitarian aid that does not include any weapons or materials that can be used for explosives, ammo, etc.
For all intents and purposes the blockade has been broken. It's been proven to be politically untenable and there is no way for Israel to maintain it without suffering substantial negative consequences.
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