IOWA vs YAMATO

[Kilo 2-3]

I think this is very subjective, the 18.1" from what I have read the Guns of Yamato are the most powerful gun ever put on a warship (Iowas 16/50's being a close second), it is her fire control that is subject. Now if Iowa's radar is out (Ala Scharnhorst at North Cape), then we are dealing with optical Rangefinders and the Mk I Eyeball... And in that case Yamato had superior optics and firepower. If Iowa could not run for any reason and had to stand her ground and engage the fight would be very much less one sided.

"Power" can be multiple things here. It can be range or the explosive power of the shell. Which do you mean?

As for the loss of radar and a forced visual fight. There's the possibility that the Iowa would be able to use the radar of an escorting vessel to help reduce this disadvantage. Also its Kingfisher spotters would be busily helping spot the fall of shells.

Plus, the Iowa's (relatively) nimbleness and speed would allow it to conduct maneuvers such as chasing the salvos, and if need be, quit the engagement.

 

[GPWASR10]

"Power" can be multiple things here. It can be range or the explosive power of the shell. Which do you mean?

As for the loss of radar and a forced visual fight. There's the possibility that the Iowa would be able to use the radar of an escorting vessel to help reduce this disadvantage. Also its Kingfisher spotters would be busily helping spot the fall of shells.

Plus, the Iowa's (relatively) nimbleness and speed would allow it to conduct maneuvers such as chasing the salvos, and if need be, quit the engagement.

I mean basic ballistics...

16"/50:
2700 lbs
2500 Ft/s
16" Cross section

18.1"/45:
3219 lbs
2559 ft/s
18.1" Cross section

A round that is faster, heavier, and bigger around is a more powerful round, I don't care if it comes from a pistol, or a naval battery.

Without radar the edge goes to Yamato in a 1v1, it is larger so it is safe to assume that it could absorb more punishment, it had larger and more powerful guns, thicker armor (even if it was an inferior quality, it made up for that in sheer volume...

Conning tower: 19"
Turret Faces: 25.6"
Barbette: 21"
Deck: 9.1"
Bulkheads 11.5"
Belt 16.1" at 20 deg

This ship was made for a visual range engagement with multiple badguys in mind, not a fast escort. Iowa was more powerful as long as her systems were up and running, without those... she would have her plate full...

 

[AAWolverine]

Are there any simulations that would allow us to try these scenarios out?

 

[Thiel]

Are there any simulations that would allow us to try these scenarios out?

There's Eagle Studios' "Jutland"

 

[USSwisconsin64]

Try WW2 iowas.

IOWA by far. It has a few harpoon lauchers, tomahawk and not to say sea sparrow anti air. With phanlanx ciws komakazi japs won't even a issue

Try the WW2 versions of the Iowas. That my friend would be huge.

 

[idiana]

Yamato is my idol , without american nuclear bombs, he´d become Napoleon of Asia

 

[Thiel]

Yamato is my idol , without american nuclear bombs, he´d become Napoleon of Asia

Except for that little fact that he died before the nuke was dropped on Hiroshima.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Yamato is my idol , without american nuclear bombs, he´d become Napoleon of Asia

Yamamoto (most emphatically NOT "Yamato." which was a name for a province in ancient Japan), was a Navy Admiral. At the time, Army factions lead by Hideki Tojo were far more influential in the Cabinet and Yamamoto would never have become a Napoleon. Political jealousies were too high and there were other leaders (most notably some Army generals like Yamashita) who would have stolen some of his thunder.

Plus, he died in 1943, shot down by USAF P-38s, almost 2 years before the first atom bomb was even tested, much the less dropped in combat.

Nukes had nothing to do with his dying or with his legacy.

 

[golden]

New here - don't know if this has been done. USS IOWA vs. IJN YAMATO. Assume crew proficiency, command, etc to be good representions of their respective services. No other vessels involved (fantasy-land, I know). Who wins, and Why?

I think several important points are being missed.

1. FUEL----The IOWA class of fast battleships could serve the U.S. Navy so well because they were not only very fast (faster than many destroyers), they had great range. They could have easily run from or too battle at their choosing.

The Yamato on the other hand, rarely sailed out of her anchorage because she literally used as much fuel as an entire squadron. Admiral YAMAMOTO had stated he was against the building of this ship and other admirals did not bother to take it with them on manuevers or attacks. It did not go to PEARL HARBOR because of the fuel situation! That alone made her an white elephant.

2. Also, her damage control was primitive. A U.S. born sailor of Japanese decent was aboard one of the YAMATO class and after WWII spoke about the poor damage control and ALL OR NOTHING philosophy of Japanese naval design.

During the night battle off SAVO ISLAND, between Japanese and U.S battleships (the SOUTH DAKOTA and WASHINGTON I believe), the SOUTH DAKOTA was pummelel by Japanese battleship rounds until the WASHINGTON slipped past her unseen and wrecked the Japanese battleship KRISHIMA with close range fire. The SOUTH DAKOTA was damaged and reportedly hit 48 times by heavy caliber shells, but she survived.

3. The immense effort needed to build, man and use the YAMATO meant that if she ever did get into a surface battle with the U.S Navy, she would have almost certainly been facing three or four U.S. battleships.

The Japanese Imperial Navy was a strange mixture of medevil tradition such as suicide weapons like the KAMIKASE and first rate people and technology. The highly trained pilots flying advanced aircraft like the ZERO and very well trained sailors using the LONG LANCE torpedoes caused havoc with the U.S. and its allies.

When the YAMATO was sunk, she was on a one way suicide mission hoping to beach herself and then use her crew as infantry.

Please note that the Japanese only LOST TWO SURFACE BATTLES TO THE U.S. By this, I mean ship against ship and not involving aircraft. The waters around GUADALCANAL were thick with sunken U.S Navy vessels and dead sailors.

 

[chihuahuense87]

Well i think the Yamato, it was a monster

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Well i think the Yamato, it was a monster

chihuahuense87, please don't post one liners. They lack detail and they don't add to the discussion. Your opinions are welcome, but they must be backed.

Using good evidence and valid support, please say why the Yamato would have won a duel with an Iowa-class BB.

 

[A.Mookerjee]

The Yamato was made, perhaps, before the concept of Carrier Aviation had percolated into the Imperial Japanese Navy.

 

[Marc 1]

That accusation could have been levelled at all the combatants at the start of WWII. All combatants pursued heavy battleship designs well after 1942 when it was clear the battleships days were numbered. Most designs were scrapped or converted.

 

[Belesari]

That accusation could have been levelled at all the combatants at the start of WWII. All combatants pursued heavy battleship designs well after 1942 when it was clear the battleships days were numbered. Most designs were scrapped or converted.

Eh that is kinda debate able. The Iowa were fleet battleships made to support and protect the fleets they were with and did both admireable. The Yamatos were from the old school navy veiw.

Let us both travel to the field of battle........slowly....then meet and smash each other.

The iowa's were good at pretty much everything they were needed for they were outstanding firesupport platforms. In vietnam the VC demanded that the Iowa be moved inorder for talks to commence becasue the moment it entered fireing range it could begin lobing shells....and continue this for awhile.

Anyways prepare for the days of the battleships again. The age of the railgun isnt to far around the corner.:type

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Belesari, the points you make are more or less accurate. The Iowas did do sterling service as fire-support platforms during World War II, Vitenam, etc. However, this was not their primary envisioned role. The Iowas were built to be ship-killers, able to take on and disable, damage, and destroy enemy capital ships in a Jutland-type naval engagement.

Shooting at islands in the middle of the Pacific was a job they were able to do with a degree of success (I'm hard-pressed to think of a major US amphibious operation in the Pacific where naval bombardment, however impressive, was entirely effective in destroying enemy beach defenses). But the shore bombardment mission was intended simply as a means of making the Iowas less of an answer looking for a question.

However, the Iowas played another largely role that was probably more important . The Iowas were effectively giant floating anti-aircraft batteries bristling with 5-inch DP guns, 40mm Bofors, and 20mm cannons, all in all more AAA firepower than a semi-dedicated anti-aircraft cruiser like the Atlanta-class.

The Iowas had the speed to keep up with the carriers; but almost as importantly, they had the sophistication and magnitude of firepower to help protect them, hence the reason many US Navy task forces at points in the war included carriers and battleships.

As for the second coming of the battleship...

 

[FischerDude]

Yamato would win, but just.

I know all of you know Yamato's armor, Iowa's armor, guns, ect. And I am not going to add anything in that respect. My meager inention is to give a few details on what people are saying.

First, Iowa's seeming godly radar fire control for her 16 inch guns. It is a huge aid in ship engagements, but it is not a fool proof, I have and I win, tool. Iowa used the same fire control system as the South Dakota, and (though i forget where) South Dakota was struck by a 5 inch shell, and the fire control was disabled. So, in an engagement with Yamato, Iowa would (eventually) get hit by Yamato and the HE shell would utter disable the FCS. Forcing Iowa to either run away, or close range to use their woefully painful optical range finders, which the Japanese outclassed.

Second, the myth that Yamato could not a barn from the inside all due to one incident when Yamamoto was doing a fleet inspection. It is true and well documented, but when I was 9 I shot my first rifle, I was terrible, but after the past 11 years of use and training, I got better! Wow! What a concept! So to say Yamato could not hit anything due to a post launch mishap is unfair. And just for your consideration, Gambler Bay was struck by something that made a much larger hole than any 14 inch or lower could make, and the closest Yamato ever came to GB was about 30 000 yards, so...... Yamato could hit Iowa, maybe after a few rounds but, hey.

Third, that Yamato's guns were actually less powerfull than the iowa's. This is simply not true, Yamato's recorded Shell velocity was close to Iowa's and about 20% heavier (Yamatos shells varied in actual wheight a bit) Also, Yamato did have excellent AP shells. (not as good quality as Iowa, but very close) Also, every one says that based on an experiment done by the US on a turret to see if Iowa could penetrate Yamato's armor is full of holes, I read in a book that the author put alot of time at working the degrees of the armor (a turret) vs the degree of the actuall impact vs how high Iowa's guns could aim. He pointed out that for the turret armor peice tested, the Yamato would have to have had a 30 degree list towards Iowa and Iowa have a 5 degree list away from Yamato. But, I am dubious if Yamato could survive a list of that caliber.

So, here is how I see the battle playing out. Yamato and Iowa cross paths alone. (some how) Iowa detects Yamato and opens fire. First volley is folley as the FC is not as great as modern systems. This obviously alerts the Yamato who sends up a recon plane and aims at the muzzle flashes on the horizon of the next volley which a few shells hit Yamato and do minor deck damage. Using the Spotter plan and he own rader range finders, Yamato manages to score a hit (by the 5th volley) Which takes out the Iowa's FC system. Now is pivitol, does Iowa close range to use her Optics, or run away? Well, iowa turns tail and runs, yamato has a 10% chance of killing Iowa with a few shells to the stern profile while Iowa can not harm Yamato at this range. Congrats Iowa fled. But, if iowa closed range, her fate would be sealed. Iowa would still have to get close enough for her Optics, letting Yamato get in a few volleys, easily killing Iowa here, and as Iowa closes the range, the more favor I have to Yamato. This play out, I give Yamato 65% chance for victory, Iowa 25% and the rest for sinking each other or fleeing.

They are both very good battle ships, and both demand respect, but, there is an old saying in the Automotive world and Battleship world: "There is no replacement for displacment."

P.S Some one mentioned Yamato shooting her guns at planes. This was not foolish, the Japanese had developed Flak guns for the 18.1 inch, the developement stage was really focused on making a shell explode mid air in semi equal parts (like all Flak). Yamato could not "train" her guns to follow planes (the turrets moved too slow) but you aim the guns to let planes fly in a kill zone and than let em have it. The Japanese proved it usefull, but waiting for the planes to go where you want them is not a good way to go I think.

 

[EmperorNortonII]

So, here is how I see the battle playing out. Yamato and Iowa cross paths alone. (some how) Iowa detects Yamato and opens fire. First volley is folley as the FC is not as great as modern systems. This obviously alerts the Yamato who sends up a recon plane and aims at the muzzle flashes on the horizon of the next volley which a few shells hit Yamato and do minor deck damage. Using the Spotter plan and he own rader range finders, Yamato manages to score a hit (by the 5th volley) Which takes out the Iowa's FC system. Now is pivitol, does Iowa close range to use her Optics, or run away? Well, iowa turns tail and runs, yamato has a 10% chance of killing Iowa with a few shells to the stern profile while Iowa can not harm Yamato at this range. Congrats Iowa fled. But, if iowa closed range, her fate would be sealed. Iowa would still have to get close enough for her Optics, letting Yamato get in a few volleys, easily killing Iowa here, and as Iowa closes the range, the more favor I have to Yamato. This play out, I give Yamato 65% chance for victory, Iowa 25% and the rest for sinking each other or fleeing.

Hold the phone! How is it the Yamato's first hit destroys the FC on the Iowa, but you've not mentioned the reverse possibility- the Iowa manages to knock out the Yamato's FC before return fire can knock out the Iowa's FC- leaving the faster Iowa in a position to pound the Yamato into dust with little chance of being hit in return? Given the superiority of the Iowa's FC, and the odds of Iowa getting the opening shot, it seems far more likely the Iowa will blind the Yamato.

 

[My2Cents]

Here is how I see this scenario:

1. Penetration for the main guns on the 2 ships is about equal. Surprisingly the bursting charge of 16”AP rounds was 70kg, while the 18” only have a 34kg bursting charge, and the Iowa has a slightly higher rate of fire. Edge Iowa.

2. The Yamato has more armor, and it is thicker is some locations. The Iowa has a better armor layout and construction. Neither ship can expect to penetrate the belt or turret face of the other except at close range. Deck armor is another matter, both are vulnerable to the others weapons in plunging fire. Edge Yamato.

3. Fire Control Systems are about equal on a clear day below about 20,000 yards. The Iowa’s radar range finders give her a major advantage at longer ranges over Yamato’s stereoscopic range finders, and an overwhelming advantage at night or in conditions of limited visibility.
The Japanese FCS has 3 subsystems, each with a sets of highly trained operators that pass data to the other subsystems using pointers, which results in a significant drop in accuracy during prolonged engagements as fatigue sets in. The use of a pointer system to relay between the various systems and to pass the resulting directions to the gun turrets, resulting in significant delays that make it difficult to hit a maneuvering target, or maintain aim when the ship is maneuvering. It also lacks a gyroscope for vertical stabilization when the ship is pitching or rolling due to maneuvers or heavy seas.
The USN systems uses direct inputs to the FCS computer without additional operating inputs, requiring a much smaller crew. It also includes a gyroscope and system directly controls the turrets electrically, in effect producing in effect a stabilized system that is largely unaffected by the ships maneuvers and sea state.
Tie in direct fire range. A clear win for the Iowa at longer ranges.

4. Speed is a clear win for the Iowa with a 5 knot advantage.

Therefore Tactics
If the Iowa should encounters the Yamato in the open sea, and cannot be forced into an engagement (to protect an vital convoy or amphibious landing, for examples) it should maintain a position outside the Yamato range until nightfall or weather intercedes (hopefully both), then close and hammer the Yamato with plunging fire from 30,000 yards or more where it will have difficulty successfully replying.

Victory Iowa.

 

[Dannavy85]

I'll be brief...and stay within reality of World War II

Gunnery: Iowa.

Yamato's crew had limited drilling experiance with the 18 inch guns. The Iowa crews carried out extensive gunfire practice all through WWII.

Radar and Targeting: Iowa

The analog computer on the Iowa was state of the art gyro-stabilization. Yamato...zilch.

Float plane capability: United States

Japanese float planes tended to have unreliable radios.

Penetration power: About equal

Speed: Iowa

Night combat advantage distant: Iowa

Night combat advantage close (up to November 1943): Japanese

My bet's on the Iowa winning in a distance contest. If she was able to cap the T against the Yamato in poor weather, she'd clobber it.

 

[Lostfleet]

I am going to sway away a little bit from the main subject, sorry

I don't know which ship would have better advantage over each other, but I was wondering how would those ship react to modern weapons,

Both of them have very strong armor,so I assume that would give them a better survival chance against a missile hit? How many Harpoon( or other missiles like Exocet or Russian Missiles) hits would sink or seriously damage both ships?