IOWA vs YAMATO

[eu2dude]

New here - don't know if this has been done. USS IOWA vs. IJN YAMATO. Assume crew proficiency, command, etc to be good representions of their respective services. No other vessels involved (fantasy-land, I know). Who wins, and Why?

 

[norinco89]

IOWA by far. It has a few harpoon lauchers, tomahawk and not to say sea sparrow anti air. With phanlanx ciws komakazi japs won't even a issue

 

[long live usa]

if your talking about ww2 era then the yamoto would have kicked the crap out of the iowa until she coughed up blood,she carried 9 18 inch guns,while the iowa carried 16 inchers i think the yamoto weighed in at 72,000 tons fully loaded,while the iowa was at 56,000 fully loaded,so the lowa would have put up a fight but the yamoto's 18 inch guns would have taken out an iowa class because the yamoto would have absorbed more hits,and the yamoto was sunk in 1944 so it could not challenge the re fitted iowa anyways

 

[Big-E]

if your talking about ww2 era then the yamoto would have kicked the crap out of the iowa until she coughed up blood,she carried 9 18 inch guns,while the iowa carried 16 inchers i think the yamoto weighed in at 72,000 tons fully loaded,while the iowa was at 56,000 fully loaded,so the lowa would have put up a fight but the yamoto's 18 inch guns would have taken out an iowa class because the yamoto would have absorbed more hits,and the yamoto was sunk in 1944 so it could not challenge the re fitted iowa anyways

I disagree completely. The BBs would have been maneuvering so it all comes down to naval gunnery, who has the most accurate guns. This goes to Iowa class hands down. Take for example on March 20, 1942 In the Inland Sea, Admiral Yamamato conducted armament trails and they were judged a failure. Both captain Takayanagi and his gunnery officer were called fools because the Yamatos gun aimers manning the rangefinder misread the horizontal settings. Now compare this to the Iowa who had the first ever TDC and could easily hit targets at 24 miles. The Iowas MVII AP rounds could easily penetrate the Kongos belt armor b/c it was faulty. The Yamatos belt armor proved to be a failure. On December 25, 1943 one torpedeo hit showed a total failure of the main armor belt due to a flaw in the lower side protection belts. She took on 3,000 tons of water and the 3rd magazine was flooded.

Speaking to the accuarcy of Iowas guns one must remember her fire control radar. The radar was amazing. Officers testing the equipment aboard USS Iowa wrote:

"Spotting both 5-inch and 16-inch splashes, HC or AP, with the radar is comparable to deliberately drawing a picture of the splashes on paper and looking at it. At all ranges fired during this period, the most inexperienced officer, given a brief explanation of what to expect, can spot splashes accurately to within 100 yards, and to within 50 yards with some experience."

The Kongo class BBS had no radar range finders and did not have the complex TDC that the Iowas had. The Yamato in a night engagement was toast, even fighting in broad daylight it is obvious from the example that her gunners were incompetent. Yamamato couldn't determine range and keep a plot of a moving target to save her life. Iowa was automatically updated by the best TDC computer and radar on any BB ever put to sea. Yamatos armor was proven faulty when hit in action showing that the Iowa would have made short work of her in day or night gun duels.

 

[Rich]

Post Taranto and Pearl the Yamato was a waste of steel by the time "He" launched from his quays. The Japs would have been far better off building more air platforms and learning how to use their submarines effectively. The Iowas were more effective because they operated with proper air cover. As amphib guns and bullet catchers for the carriers they were worth their price, at least when considering the limitless resources of WW-ll Yank Industry.

The Yamato fired his guns against surface targets what? Once right? In between getting blown up by torpedoes and bombs? All this when "He" wasnt being used for fancy dinners with geishas,or, as a cargo transport. The Musashi never even fired "His" guns as far as I know. "He" led a short, exciting, and useless life as well. In the end both BBs died in shame without doing one thing to protect their emperor.

The Japanese got more worth out of 600 yen kamikaze planes then they did these two rust buckets.

 

[Big-E]

The Japanese got more worth out of 600 yen kamikaze planes then they did these two rust buckets.

They never had the chance to rust in service.

 

[long live usa]

hmm i wonder what would happen if the bismark went up against the yamoto or bismark against iowa hmmm.........?

 

[Big-E]

hmm i wonder what would happen if the bismark went up against the yamoto or bismark against iowa hmmm.........?

Bismark takes Yamato, Iowa takes both.

 

[skeleton]

not true. the Bismark wasn't in the same class as the Iowa or the Yamato, as it wasn't designed to fight other battleships and had smaller guns and less armor. as for Yamato vs Iowa i would have to give it to the Iowa based its superior speed and accuracy. the guns and armor deficit was minor with the 16 inch guns on the Iowa having more than enough penetration to destroy the Yamato. In a WW2 style naval battle the firing accuracy and speed were the most important factors.

 

[kevinwewe]

IOWA by far. It has a few harpoon lauchers, tomahawk and not to say sea sparrow anti air. With phanlanx ciws komakazi japs won't even a issue

well there is a few Iowa's its like a line of battleships but there's only one i know of that can still be used and that's the USS Missouri and aircraft carriers kinda own the sea's now because no one uses battle ships but IOWA would win for sure its like unsinkable. unless it got hit exactly where the Japanese kamikaze hit it because its a weak spot now and there's a HUGE dent in it (I've seen it) and I've anyone ever goes to Hawaii go see it for sure its free anyway . and the speed of the IOWA class beats every other battleship class made

 

[USNlover]

The Iowas were designed to fight Yamato class Battleships so they were designed to be faster,more heavily armored, and Outgun Yamato so Iowa Would have won by a long shot. Now Bismark VS Iowa Iowa would Kick Bismarck butt :nutkick

 

[Beatmaster]

Battleship Bismarck:
General characteristics
Displacement: 41,700 tonnes standard
50,900 tonnes full load
Length: 251 metres (823.5 ft) overall
241.5 metres (792.3 ft) waterline
Beam: 36.0 metres (118.1 ft) waterline
Draft: 9.3 metres (30.5 ft) standard
10.2 metres (33.5 ft) full load
Propulsion: 12 Wagner high-pressure;
3 Blohm & Voss geared turbines;
3 three-blade propellers, 4.70 m diameter
150,170 hp (121 MW)
Speed: 30.1 knots during trials (one work claims a speed of 31.1 knots (57.6 km/h).[1]
Range: 8,525 nm at 19 knots (35 km/h)
Complement: 2,092: 103 officers 1,989 men (1941)
Armament: 8 × 380 mm/L52 SK C/34 (4×2)
12 × 150 mm/L55 SK-C/28 (6×2)
16 × 105 mm/L65 SK-C/37 / SK-C/33 (8×2)
16 × 37 mm/L83 SK-C/30
12 × 20 mm/L65 MG C/30
8 × 20 mm/L65 MG C/32 (8×4)

Armour: Belt: 145 to 320 mm
Deck: 110 to 120 mm
Bulkheads: 220 mm
Turrets: 130 to 360 mm
Barbettes: 342 mm
Conning tower: 360 mm
Aircraft carried: 4×Arado Ar 196 A-3, with 1 double-ended catapult
Name: Bismarck
Namesake: Otto von Bismarck
Ordered: 16 November 1935
Builder: Blohm & Voss, Hamburg
Laid down: 1 July 1936
Launched: 14 February 1939
Commissioned: 24 August 1940
Fate: Sunk, cause disputed, 27 May 1941 in the North Atlantic, at 48°10′N 16°12′W / 48.167°N 16.2°W / 48.167; -16.2

Battle Ship Iowa
General characteristics

Class and type: Iowa-class battleship
Displacement: 45,000 tons (45,722 tonnes)
Length: 887 ft 3 in (270.4 m)
Beam: 108 ft 2 in (33.0 m)
Draft: 37 ft 2 in (11.3 m)
Speed: 33 knots (61 km/h)
Complement: 151 officers, 2637 enlisted
Armament: 1943:
9 x 16 in (406 mm) 50 cal. Mark 7 guns
20 × 5 in (127 mm) 38 cal. Mark 12 guns
80 x 40 mm 56 cal. anti-aircraft guns
49 x 20 mm 70 cal. anti-aircraft guns
1984:
9 x 16 in (406 mm) 50 cal. Mark 7 guns
12 × 5 in (127 mm) 38 cal. Mark 12 guns
32 x BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles
16 x RGM-84 Harpoon Anti-Ship missiles
4 x 20 mm/76 cal. Phalanx CIWS
Armor: Belt: 12.1 in (310 mm)
Bulkheads: 11.3 in (290 mm)
Barbettes: 11.6 to 17.3 in (290 to 440 mm)
Turrets: 19.7 in (500 mm)
Decks: 7.5 in (190 mm)
Aircraft carried: floatplanes, helicopters, UAVs
Aviation facilities: none
Ordered: 1 July 1939
Builder: New York Naval Yard
Laid down: 27 June 1940
Launched: 27 August 1942
Commissioned: 22 February 1943
Decommissioned: 26 October 1990
Struck: 17 March 2006
Nickname: "The Big Stick"
Honors and
awards: 11 battle stars
Status: National Defense Reserve Fleet at Suisun Bay
Notes: Last lead ship of any class of US battleship, only US Navy ship to have a bathtub

**Note Tomahawks and other modern systems are put on far beyond the war.

Battleship Yamato:
General characteristics

Displacement: 65,027 tonnes[4]
71,659 tonnes (full load)[4]
Length: 256 m (800 ft 6 in) (waterline)
263 m (862 ft 10 in) (overall)[4]
Beam: 36.9 m (121 ft)[4]
Draft: 11 m (36 ft)[4]
Propulsion: • 12 Kampon boilers, driving 4 steam turbines[4]
• 110 MW (150,000 shp)
• Four 3-bladed propellers.[4]
Speed: 50 km/h (27 knots)[4]
Range: 7,200 nautical miles (13,334 km) at 30 km/h (16 knots)[4]
Complement: 2,500–2,800[4][5]
Armament:
(1941) 9 × 46 cm (18.1 in) (3×3)[4]
12 x 155 mm (6.1 in) (4×3)[4]
12 × 127 mm (5 in)[4]
24 × 25 mm anti-aircraft (8×3)[4]
4 × 13.2 mm AA (2×2)[4]
Armament:
(1945) 9 × 46 cm (18.1 in) (3×3)[6]
6 × 155 mm (6.1 in) (2×3)[6]
24 × 127 mm (5 in)[6]
162 × 25 mm anti-aircraft (52×3, 6×1)[6]
4 × 13.2 mm AA (2×2)[6]
Armor: 650 mm on face of main turrets[7]
410 mm side armor[7]
200 mm central(75%) armored deck[7]
226.5 mm outer(25%) armoured deck[7]
Aircraft carried: 7 (2 catapults)[7]
Ordered: March 1937[1]
Builder: Kure DY[2]
Laid down: 4 November 1937[2]
Launched: 8 August 1940[2]
Commissioned: 16 December 1941[2]
Fate: Sunk 7 April 1945 North of Okinawa
(30°22′N 128°04′E / 30.367°N 128.067°E / 30.367; 128.067)[3]
Struck: 31 August 1945

Personal i must say all 3 battleships are the pinnacle of their time and i could only imagin how good it must be to be the captain of such a masterpiece of war......i do believe that when you recieve your command on such a fine vessel that you must be feeling like god for a second.

Regardless or Iowa would kick the Yamatos ars keep in mind that sinking the Yamato was a matter of luck.
In a direct firefight both would suffer horrible.
Iowa did have better firecontrol but the Yamato did have the better shells.

Question: Did the Iowa engaged the Yamato?
Or is this a fantasy topic?

So if the Yamato would be able to score a direct hit then even with better armor the Iowa would have been in serious trouble because the explosion power of the Yamatoes shells was far superior accoording to every histroy page about the Yamato.
But thats theory fact is the Yamato got defeated not because it was a bad build battleship but due the fact that the crew was crap.
Imagin that the crew would have been better......then Iowa or any other serious oponent would have a really serious problem, but this also applies for the Yamato because even if the Yamato would win or not the horror that comes from the direct/indirect hit explosions on both battleships would have been absolutly stunning and devastating.

The Bismarck on this matter did sink the HMS Hood in such a way that the proud Hood got beaten horrible badly.
The Iowa would probably win ( with damage) from the Yamato but against the Bismarck i would say that it is a matter of luck because i really cannot tell who would win keep in mind that the german crew was superior trained and that the ship itself was a monster.
So Iowa VS Bismarck would have been a horrific battle between titans.
I do believe that the only real danger for the iowa would have come from the Bismarck because i do believe that the german battleship was a fair match.
They both have almost equal firepower, armor, skills and speed some parts i must favor the USN Iowa but if it comes to durability and raw firepower then the Bismarck has my vote.

* Did the Bismarck have fixed firecontrol? i believe yes anyone can confirm this?

 

[11561]

I've read on all of these ships rather extensively, and would like to offer up the following comments

Design & armor:

First off, the Bismarck wasn't really a new design, but rather an enlarged, up-armored and engined Baden of WWI vintage. She was designed and built to fight at shorter ranges in the foggy waters of the baltic and north seas, and her armor layout reflected this, and the German experiences in battle in WWI. Basically, her armor and guns were laid out in such a way to withstand heavy, short-ranged bombardment from multiple capital ships. Everything had some amount of armor on it, even the AA guns and extreme bow and stern (Though the stern proved eventually to be structurally weak regardless.)This layout was vindicated at her final battle wherein she absorbed 70-80 close range hits from guns of 14" and above, and according to some sources more than 600 cruiser and destroyer gun hits before succumbing to the effects of the scuttle order.

This close-and-heavy philosophy is part of the reason she shipped her main armamant in 4 double turrets, rather than three triples like American, Italian, and Japenese contemporaries, or in quads like the French BC's and BB's. I guess their thinking behind this was that if one or two main turrets were to be knocked out, there would still be good turrets to fire. This also was somewhat vindicated in her last battle when her two forward turrets were knocked out but the two aft continued to fire and do some splinter damage to Nelson (Rodney? Both? I forget). Unfortunately for the Germans, she scored not one hit that day, despite her above-average shooting against Hood and PoW. The British Vanguard was also laid out like this, but by the time she was completed, her layout was obsolete as per the KGV class and the earlier Nelsons.

The Iowas were designed as fast carrier escorts to be able to maintain pace with the fast American carriers, which themselves been designed from the outset as fast battlecruisers (Lex, Sara). Hence their long range, powerful engines, and very high speed. Their armor didn't suffer for this however because of the "All-or-nothing concept", meaning that spaces that absolutely needed armor were protected to the max, (Conning tower, engines, turrets, magazines, ect.) were armored to withstand the effect of it's own guns, while spaces that didn't need to be heavily armored, weren't. Their design was also more modern than either the Bis or the Yamato, and in conjunction with their intended use in the vast and relatively unpopulated waters of the pacific, they were afforded greater protection against plunging fire that is more common in long-range fights. Plunging fire is shells coming it at a ballistic trajectory, rather than a direct (non-arcing) trajectory.

Their guns used the newer 3x3 layout (2 triple turrets forward, 1 triple turret aft) because the designers realized this provided 2 distinct advantages over the Bismarck's 4x2 layout: Firstly that 9 guns in 3 turrets weighed as much or less than 8 guns in 4 turrets, and secondly that three turrets made for a shorter citadel than 4 turrets. (Armored box that contains the turrets, magazines, machinery, and C&C spaces. The real important stuff)

The Yamatos were designed to be world-beaters: Able to take anything the enemy gave and to be able to dish it out half again; Able to destroy with crushing 18" guns anything that couldn't flee quickly enough. Their enourmous size and girth provided the designers with 2 very real advantages: Firstly to have the room and weight to hang an absurd amount of armor off the thing, and secondly to have the size to be able to absorb terrible amounts of damage. These two combined can clearly be seen in the final battles of both ships. Both required many, many hits from aerial bombs and torpedoes to go down, though sadly, the battleship duel for which these monsters had been designed never occored because of the Americans overwhelming air superiority in the pacific at the stage in the war when the two ships of this class went down.

However the 2 afforementioned advantages were also among this classes greatest drawbacks: Huge size and heavy armor made the ships slower than any of their contemporaries by at least 3 knots, and less manuverable, and it made them very hard to miss targets when overwhelmed by planes. (Or destroyers and torpedo cruisers maybe?) It was also a handicap that the immense amount of armor fitted to these ships was vastly inferior in quality (Stopping power) to the American and German armors of the time.

Like Rocky Balboa, these ships were slow, but with an iron chin. But unlike Rocky, they didn't win in the end

Guns and control:

The Bismarcks were armed with the excellent SK-C/34 380mm (14.96") gun. It was accurate, long-ranged (High elevation), and hard-hitting. It also fired very rapidly (Between 3 and 3.3 rounds per minute) for a battleship gun. The power of this weapon fell off rapidly at extreme ranges, I guess emphasizing the Germans' intent to fight at shorter ranges.

The Bismarcks fire control consisted of world-renowned Zeiss range-finders, in widths from 10.5m to 7m, with smaller devices serving the secondary weapons. The radar as fitted in 1940 was the rather lacking FuMO 23, which was sometimes disabled by the recoil of the main guns. It was reported to be effective when it worked. I'm sure Tirpitz had a more effective radar, but she's outside the scope of our discussion here.

The Iowas were armed with 9 highly effective 16"/50 cal guns. Accurate, long ranged, and with the best ammo and propellant (At least till 1989). From all I've read, these guns fired about 2 rounds per minute, and that the armor-piercing variety of shell was heavier per inch of diameter than anything else.

Her fire-control was excellent, clearly the best out of the three. In 1944, one of the Iowas was able to retain a gun lock on a target at night, in heavy weather, at high speed, while going in a figure-8. This was a feat that no other US BB had done before (And probably no brit, definitely no German, and no Japenese). That's all I need to say about American FC.

The Yamatos had 9 massive 460mm guns, originally developed as the "406mm special" or some such to avoid the washington treaty limits. Clearly the heavyweight in both shell weight and in destructive effect when accurate, they were also the slowest of the group: between 1 rpm and 1.5 rpm. These weapons also apparently had an interesting secondary role: AA. Some Admiral or Captain shot these monsters at incoming aircraft, though I doubt they were effective in this role.

I have no details on Yamato's fire control, but I feel safe in saying that it was inferior to both the American and German systems operational in this discussion, by both day or night. Perhaps only due to poor crew quality, or poor equipment, or some combination thereof. I have no proof that Japenese FC sucked, so feel free to flame me on that assumption if I need it.

After action report:

Iowa wins 1 on 1 against Bismarck and 1 on 1 against Yamato.

Iowas potent combo of great speed, adequate armor, highly-effective guns, and excellent fire control lay waste to the Japenese giant by day and especially at night. Despite her great size and huge guns, the Yamato simply isn't in the same league as Iowa. She might have a better shot against a SoDak or NC.

And against Bismarck, Iowa uses her 2-3 knot speed advantage to regulate the distance of the fight, while letting her better fire control wear down the German ship. Though on the pursuit, Bismarck can field 1 more gun, her overall armament is inferior, as is her fire control, but not by such a degree as above. I call this fight as Bismarck sunk, and Iowa moderately-to heavily damaged.

In the hypothetical engagement of Yamato by Bismarck, I see the fight turning out pretty much as above. German radar and better rangefinders / directors will give the Bis first blood, and with her ability to put at least half again the number of rounds in the air per unit of time, Bis will hit first, and hit hard. That is, until, she shoots out her own radar. Then I see The Germans doing one of two things: Closing quickly to her designed battle range and pummeling the Yamato with salvoes only 20 seconds apart and dealing with the occasional impact of an 18.1" shell or three, or keeping the range long and still using superior FC but less effective shells to slowly wear the giant down.

I'd go for the close-and-pummel route myself. :nutkick

Cheers

 

[Beatmaster]

I've read on all of these ships rather extensively, and would like to offer up the following comments

Design & armor:

First off, the Bismarck wasn't really a new design, but rather an enlarged, up-armored and engined Baden of WWI vintage. She was designed and built to fight at shorter ranges in the foggy waters of the baltic and north seas, and her armor layout reflected this, and the German experiences in battle in WWI. Basically, her armor and guns were laid out in such a way to withstand heavy, short-ranged bombardment from multiple capital ships. Everything had some amount of armor on it, even the AA guns and extreme bow and stern (Though the stern proved eventually to be structurally weak regardless.)This layout was vindicated at her final battle wherein she absorbed 70-80 close range hits from guns of 14" and above, and according to some sources more than 600 cruiser and destroyer gun hits before succumbing to the effects of the scuttle order.

This close-and-heavy philosophy is part of the reason she shipped her main armamant in 4 double turrets, rather than three triples like American, Italian, and Japenese contemporaries, or in quads like the French BC's and BB's. I guess their thinking behind this was that if one or two main turrets were to be knocked out, there would still be good turrets to fire. This also was somewhat vindicated in her last battle when her two forward turrets were knocked out but the two aft continued to fire and do some splinter damage to Nelson (Rodney? Both? I forget). Unfortunately for the Germans, she scored not one hit that day, despite her above-average shooting against Hood and PoW. The British Vanguard was also laid out like this, but by the time she was completed, her layout was obsolete as per the KGV class and the earlier Nelsons.

The Iowas were designed as fast carrier escorts to be able to maintain pace with the fast American carriers, which themselves been designed from the outset as fast battlecruisers (Lex, Sara). Hence their long range, powerful engines, and very high speed. Their armor didn't suffer for this however because of the "All-or-nothing concept", meaning that spaces that absolutely needed armor were protected to the max, (Conning tower, engines, turrets, magazines, ect.) were armored to withstand the effect of it's own guns, while spaces that didn't need to be heavily armored, weren't. Their design was also more modern than either the Bis or the Yamato, and in conjunction with their intended use in the vast and relatively unpopulated waters of the pacific, they were afforded greater protection against plunging fire that is more common in long-range fights. Plunging fire is shells coming it at a ballistic trajectory, rather than a direct (non-arcing) trajectory.

Their guns used the newer 3x3 layout (2 triple turrets forward, 1 triple turret aft) because the designers realized this provided 2 distinct advantages over the Bismarck's 4x2 layout: Firstly that 9 guns in 3 turrets weighed as much or less than 8 guns in 4 turrets, and secondly that three turrets made for a shorter citadel than 4 turrets. (Armored box that contains the turrets, magazines, machinery, and C&C spaces. The real important stuff)

The Yamatos were designed to be world-beaters: Able to take anything the enemy gave and to be able to dish it out half again; Able to destroy with crushing 18" guns anything that couldn't flee quickly enough. Their enourmous size and girth provided the designers with 2 very real advantages: Firstly to have the room and weight to hang an absurd amount of armor off the thing, and secondly to have the size to be able to absorb terrible amounts of damage. These two combined can clearly be seen in the final battles of both ships. Both required many, many hits from aerial bombs and torpedoes to go down, though sadly, the battleship duel for which these monsters had been designed never occored because of the Americans overwhelming air superiority in the pacific at the stage in the war when the two ships of this class went down.

However the 2 afforementioned advantages were also among this classes greatest drawbacks: Huge size and heavy armor made the ships slower than any of their contemporaries by at least 3 knots, and less manuverable, and it made them very hard to miss targets when overwhelmed by planes. (Or destroyers and torpedo cruisers maybe?) It was also a handicap that the immense amount of armor fitted to these ships was vastly inferior in quality (Stopping power) to the American and German armors of the time.

Like Rocky Balboa, these ships were slow, but with an iron chin. But unlike Rocky, they didn't win in the end

Guns and control:

The Bismarcks were armed with the excellent SK-C/34 380mm (14.96") gun. It was accurate, long-ranged (High elevation), and hard-hitting. It also fired very rapidly (Between 3 and 3.3 rounds per minute) for a battleship gun. The power of this weapon fell off rapidly at extreme ranges, I guess emphasizing the Germans' intent to fight at shorter ranges.

The Bismarcks fire control consisted of world-renowned Zeiss range-finders, in widths from 10.5m to 7m, with smaller devices serving the secondary weapons. The radar as fitted in 1940 was the rather lacking FuMO 23, which was sometimes disabled by the recoil of the main guns. It was reported to be effective when it worked. I'm sure Tirpitz had a more effective radar, but she's outside the scope of our discussion here.

The Iowas were armed with 9 highly effective 16"/50 cal guns. Accurate, long ranged, and with the best ammo and propellant (At least till 1989). From all I've read, these guns fired about 2 rounds per minute, and that the armor-piercing variety of shell was heavier per inch of diameter than anything else.

Her fire-control was excellent, clearly the best out of the three. In 1944, one of the Iowas was able to retain a gun lock on a target at night, in heavy weather, at high speed, while going in a figure-8. This was a feat that no other US BB had done before (And probably no brit, definitely no German, and no Japenese). That's all I need to say about American FC.

The Yamatos had 9 massive 460mm guns, originally developed as the "406mm special" or some such to avoid the washington treaty limits. Clearly the heavyweight in both shell weight and in destructive effect when accurate, they were also the slowest of the group: between 1 rpm and 1.5 rpm. These weapons also apparently had an interesting secondary role: AA. Some Admiral or Captain shot these monsters at incoming aircraft, though I doubt they were effective in this role.

I have no details on Yamato's fire control, but I feel safe in saying that it was inferior to both the American and German systems operational in this discussion, by both day or night. Perhaps only due to poor crew quality, or poor equipment, or some combination thereof. I have no proof that Japenese FC sucked, so feel free to flame me on that assumption if I need it.

After action report:

Iowa wins 1 on 1 against Bismarck and 1 on 1 against Yamato.

Iowas potent combo of great speed, adequate armor, highly-effective guns, and excellent fire control lay waste to the Japenese giant by day and especially at night. Despite her great size and huge guns, the Yamato simply isn't in the same league as Iowa. She might have a better shot against a SoDak or NC.

And against Bismarck, Iowa uses her 2-3 knot speed advantage to regulate the distance of the fight, while letting her better fire control wear down the German ship. Though on the pursuit, Bismarck can field 1 more gun, her overall armament is inferior, as is her fire control, but not by such a degree as above. I call this fight as Bismarck sunk, and Iowa moderately-to heavily damaged.

In the hypothetical engagement of Yamato by Bismarck, I see the fight turning out pretty much as above. German radar and better rangefinders / directors will give the Bis first blood, and with her ability to put at least half again the number of rounds in the air per unit of time, Bis will hit first, and hit hard. That is, until, she shoots out her own radar. Then I see The Germans doing one of two things: Closing quickly to her designed battle range and pummeling the Yamato with salvoes only 20 seconds apart and dealing with the occasional impact of an 18.1" shell or three, or keeping the range long and still using superior FC but less effective shells to slowly wear the giant down.

I'd go for the close-and-pummel route myself. :nutkick

Cheers

I believe you said it all.
Great tekst

 

[Clayton]

IOWA by far. It has a few harpoon lauchers, tomahawk and not to say sea sparrow anti air. With phanlanx ciws komakazi japs won't even a issue

Maybe you should learn to spell before posting your ridiculous tread, we're talking WWW11 comparisons. No need to refer to the Japanese as Japs, war's over been over for 65 years redneck or is it just an inferiority complex. The Yamato was state of the art at the time with seasoned sailors who successfully defeated the Russians prior to WWW11. The Japanese sailors were compared favorably to the British Navymen who were rated #1. If the Iowa was a heavyweight, the Yamato was a superheavyweight with superior firepower, armaments & speed not to mentioned fight experienced crew. Yamato would win this battle.

 

[fretburner]

What about the range of the guns? Didn't the Yamato have better range? So that the Yamato would have fired a lot of rounds on the Iowa or Bismark already before those two can shoot back?

 

[Kilo 2-3]

What about the range of the guns? Didn't the Yamato have better range? So that the Yamato would have fired a lot of rounds on the Iowa or Bismark already before those two can shoot back?

Absolute max range isn't really a useful statistic. Yes, being able to shoot a long way has its advantages, but if you can't effectively control your fire or spot targets out to the range your guns can fire, then being able to fire at extreme ranges is of dubious value.

We have to, I repeat, have to, understand that "good numbers" or glowing sheets of technical data don't tell the whole story. Yes, the Yamato might have been able to fire sooner, but its slower rate of fire, (at times) unreliable shells (it's very reasonable to assume that Japanese industry by 1944-45 would have had difficulty making capable high explosives), and poor fire control would have made this "advantage" of longer range a good way to waste ammo and stress and tire crews while offering little better than a long chance at a lucky hit.

Indeed, in a night engagement, the Iowa class could easily have got within range without being detected or hit by the Japanese ship, since Yamato was known to have had trouble with its radar (the blast effect from the guns damaged the radar aerials).

The by the end of the war, US radar and fire control was very effective. US BB crews (at least on the slow BBs) had plenty of firing practice from having supporting landings as well as the famous shelling attack on Japan conducted in 1945.

Combat brings about a need for constant upgrades, etc. and consequently it is far more likely that the radar suite of an active-duty Iowa in the Pacific was far better than that of the often-idle "Queen of the Fjords" (DKM Tirpitz, Battleship Tirpitz - KBismarck.com)

The technical and personnel edge would likely have to gone to the US Navy. Not to detract from the courage of Japanese crews or the technical strengths of the Kreigsmarine, but by 1944 or 1945 the Iowa class unquestionably had qualitative advantages untold by quantitative dimensions, ranges, or statistics.

Maybe you should learn to spell before posting your ridiculous tread, we're talking WWW11 comparisons. No need to refer to the Japanese as Japs, war's over been over for 65 years redneck or is it just an inferiority complex. The Yamato was state of the art at the time with seasoned sailors who successfully defeated the Russians prior to WWW11. The Japanese sailors were compared favorably to the British Navymen who were rated #1. If the Iowa was a heavyweight, the Yamato was a superheavyweight with superior firepower, armaments & speed not to mentioned fight experienced crew. Yamato would win this battle.

Clayton, yelling at people does not making anything better. They just yell back. It's like throwing bricks at a dog and then wondering why it bites you.

Calling people names, does not solve anything. An ad hominem attack (Fallacy: Ad Hominem) is a sign of weakness in a debater. It indicates that you can't argue in specifics and so you simply attack the character of your opponent. If you want to strengthen your argument then speak intelligently and debate the issues, don't attack the people, Clayton.

Your grammar and spelling need work. It detracts from your credibility. Clayton, I'm sure you have an opinion, but how you say it is as important as what you're saying.

If political correctness is a concern the you'd best call the "Japanese," the Nippons and "Japan," Nippon. Yes, "Japs" is something of a racial slur, but in this case it was probably being used as shorthand.

I do agree with you on one point. Japanese naval training before and in the first part of the War was excellent. (I'll refer you to Michael Gannon's excellent At War At Sea, if you'd like to read more.) But...by the end of the war, attrition had taken a might toll. IJN crew quality fell and USN crew quality rose.

 

[GPWASR10]

Fascinating site you gents have here. I stumbles upon it while doing a little research on a book I was thinking about writing. I am a bit of a Battleship-phile and have spent the better part of my life reading about these magnificent vessels, and if you would permit me, I would like to shed just a little light on this fascinating thread.

Yamato vs. Iowa, this is the dream battle for most of us naval warfare enthusiasts I would think. It is a battle that has always had my imagination since I built the Yamato and Iowa in 1:350 scale, side by side, when I was still in High School. They certainly are the most striking battleships ever made (only because Hood was a Battle Cruiser, all be it a huge one), and not only because of their awesome size, but their designs are both simply awe inspiring, the layout of the decks, the sweep of the bow... magnificent.

And I love Yamato, who doesn't (although in all reality I am a sucker for the British Boats). But in a fight, I have to side strongly in favor of Iowa, and here is why...


Staring with the obvious, Iowa was faster (27 kts. vs. 33+ kts.), and by battleship standards, quite a bit more limber. The speed advantage here gives Iowa a very important tactical advantage in which she easily chooses the range of the engagement. An important consideration when she (as Yamato) can shoot over the horizon.

Which, of course brings me to fire control, Iowa (as every other US Navy Ship larger then a Destroyer at the time) used the Mk. 13 Fire Control suite. The system was insanely ahead of it’s time it had a 3cm wavelength to Yamatos 10cm, and almost 25 times the power output. For Iowa this means it not only can shoot over the horizon, but can find a perfect firing solution over the horizon, and adjust it with pin point accuracy (by Battleship standards), while maneuvering. To read about this system in action read up on the 3rd Battle of Savo Island. Yamato had the same range-finding set up as Kirishima (Bracketing a target with colored smoke to saddle a slavo... etc)... And Iowas was certainly superior to the set that was fitted to the Washington. Having the best range finding optics was about as useful here as the Mk I eyeball used at Jutland.

As far as Iowas 16"/50 main battery, I consider it to be the equal to Yamatos in all practical terms mostly because of the projectiles it fired. It would have been able to pierce Yamtos hull eventually and wreak havoc on her decks right from the start. The plunging fire on her decks would have been a real concern, and even though Yamato had the thickest armored decks around, you would simply be asking to much of that armor when Iowa was dropping her shells in at 20,000+ yds with deadly accuracy.

Iowa was also no slouch in the Armor dept. and even though she had an “all-or-nothing” approach, her actual armor layout was superb with all of her important machinery and armament well protected. This does not even begin to discuss the qualative difference in steels that both ships were using, US steel being far less brittle then the Japanese steel of WWII. Meaning even if Yamato got very lucky, and hit a ship that it could not see, Iowa would certainly survive the hit and continue lobbing shells at Yamato.

Simply put, Iowa had a far better effective range, and she chooses the range of the fight. She wins in almost any conceivable scenario.

As stated earlier, Bismark was built for Jutland style knife fights of the North Atlantic, he could make it a tough fight for almost anyone if he could close the gap. But, he also had a fatal design flaw where her primary hydraulics sat above significant armor protection, tisk, tisk.... I don’t think that realistically he would fare well against either, as he would have to get in close to effectively engage either one; a situation Iowa would never give her, and Yamato would welcome.

A more interesting fight, in my mind, would have to be KM Bismark vs. Richelieu as they were on each others minds when they were being developed, and both were launched in ‘39. I think these two were natural advisaries myself.

And of course the pound for pound armor king H.M.S. Prince of Whales vs.the fast, deadly and ever so useful IJN Kongo.

Anyways, if you made it all the way through this, thanks!

 

[nikko]

reply

if your talking about ww2 era then the yamoto would have kicked the crap out of the iowa until she coughed up blood,she carried 9 18 inch guns,while the iowa carried 16 inchers i think the yamoto weighed in at 72,000 tons fully loaded,while the iowa was at 56,000 fully loaded,so the lowa would have put up a fight but the yamoto's 18 inch guns would have taken out an iowa class because the yamoto would have absorbed more hits,and the yamoto was sunk in 1944 so it could not challenge the re fitted iowa anyways

remember: IOWAS 16" guns are way better than the japanese 18" guns.....plus the IOWAS had a better range finder than the behemoth YAMATO....whats the use if your ship is bigger then had no sophisticated technology....

 

[GPWASR10]

remember: IOWAS 16" guns are way better than the japanese 18" guns.....plus the IOWAS had a better range finder than the behemoth YAMATO....whats the use if your ship is bigger then had no sophisticated technology....

I think this is very subjective, the 18.1" from what I have read the Guns of Yamato are the most powerful gun ever put on a warship (Iowas 16/50's being a close second), it is her fire control that is subject. Now if Iowa's radar is out (Ala Scharnhorst at North Cape), then we are dealing with optical Rangefinders and the Mk I Eyeball... And in that case Yamato had superior optics and firepower. If Iowa could not run for any reason and had to stand her ground and engage the fight would be very much less one sided.