I do not buy that at all, one of the main reasons why Ukraine cannot off load uber amounts of Oplots mainly has to do with the political situation in that country, also Russian ground vehicle manufacturing facilities need some major upgrading also but they are making progress.Ukranian ability to develop SAM systems is incomparable to their ability to develop tank technology. Granted a serial production will run into quality control issues, corruption, and general efficiency problems. (not unlike those encountered in the Russian defence industry) But to argue that they can't design an effective upgrade of the T-80 acorss all main systems is ridiculous. They may not be able to build a next generation MBT, or anything similar to the FCS and other similar modular combat system concepts. But they are quite capable to upgrade, and modernize Soviet era technology to something competitive in the modern world.
The main reason Ukraine hasn't won major tank deals is precisely because of the state of their production facilities.
T-84 Serial Production?
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
the Bengali govt. has recently unveilrd to the public the defence procurement plans for 2009-2010. 7 tanks are to be purchased according to the plan for trialling purposes. the tanks are either going to be Chinese type 96G or the T-84. The tanks will most probably be T-84s as the current AL govt are not so friendly with China and a lot of previous plans to purchase large no. of Chinese military hardware has been cancelled replaced by plans to get western or Russian equipment.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #63
How does the political situation in the country prevent them from replacing export of old Soviet T-72 stocks, with minor upgrades, with newly built T-84s? Even before the war, to Georgia for example.
You have to look at the amount of countries fielding or have in storage large amounts of T-72 series tanks, if the countries that are gobbling up all of Ukraines stored T-72 tanks run out of spare parts due to political changes/turmoil in Ukraine they can always look elsewhere for those parts. With the T-80 tank series this is just not the case, sole reliance will be needed with Russia.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #66
I see your point in regards to the popularity of the T-72. However if Ukraine was able to produce and provide maintenance for T-84s, they would/should have won some international tenders by now. As it stands, nobody seems to be interested in the tank. Even Pakistan got older T-80UD which seem to have come from Soviet era stocks. Additionally Georgia before the war also opted for significant quantities of T-72s, and completely bypassed the much more impressive T-84s. Additionally even the order that did come through was a mixed order, for something like 10 units of T-84 and another batch of T-72s. All of this seems to suggest production hurdles, and poor state of the factories in question. Where a small number of tanks may still be produced, but large scale serial runs are not an option until the situation improves.
You think that the issue with the T-84 is that other countries don't see Ukraine as a reliable supplier? Maybe. But I suspect it's a little more then that.
I have enough information inregards to both models to call both good capable tanks, as how effective they would be in modern conflict will depend on how they are augmented for battle, you can have the best tanks in the world but if you do not have enough or proper assets to support them they will not last long, so that kind of spells things out for Ukrainian forces going up against the likes of Mother Russia.Sorry but i hate this "vs" discussions i know maybe this was my fault.
But i would like to suggest that we got no information about the T84 so it could also outperform each other modern tank, we don't know.
Maybe it is a Superwaffe
Do not forget that Pakistan does not plan on keeping the T-80UD around forever, times were different during this purchase agreement, Georgia was never asked to purchase T-84's until during recent times, and for what reasons they would want only a few of them doesn`t make any sense not unless they have plans for a larger future order which is doubtful, Georgia doesn't have enough funds for this and Ukraine is in no position to handle this on a strict credit basis. Again, prduction facilities are not that major of a deal, its the cost needed to get a sizable order under way, no one is assured that current or future regimes will honor agreements and that things will not go south with the country as a whole.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #70
So it's a question of funds and internal stability? Or maybe an issue of customer base? I mean ultimately the T-90 faced the same issues in the 90s, but it found customers first in India, then in the Russian armed forces, now in Algeria and reportedly Libya. Yet the T-84 has lost every tender, from Malaysia, to Peru, to Cyprus, and it's only export customer is Georgia, which is more likely then not getting it for political reasons. It really seems like it's more then political reliability at play. After all I doubt that a new Ukranian leadership would all of a sudden decide not to sell tanks to Malaysia or Peru.
Technically, new T-84 have about some capabilities as new T-90.
But practically, there is big difference for costumer. T-90 is all made in Russia and dont depend on foreign components. Even thermals are joint-venture with Thales, even thermal matrixes are now produced in Russia - but even without that Thales is still quite independent from usual rest of USA-controlled (or suspectible to USA pressure) high-tech corporatons. T-90 are produced in large numbers - in fact, most produced tank in the world in new century. T-90 will have long service life - at least Russia and India procure large numbers.
Compare that with T-84... half internal systems are made from foreign components - both from Russia and West. ATGM's - russians. Ammo - either russians or western. Service support - lack to say the least. Likely many quality problems. Political support - rather negative than even zero.
So, why anyone would choose T-84 instead of T-90? Masochism?
Pakistan was probably as unique as it gets. But i dont think think we will ever see something alike.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #72
And Pakistan didn't purchase the T-84, it purchased the T-80UD, spare parts for which can potentially be obtained from other ex-USSR states, or even second-hand from Russia. I recall hearing something about Bangladesh considering ordering these tanks. I wonder if a deal materializes there. If it does, it would be the first major production run for the T-84.
1st post
As I can see on website of Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau, only Buran-Catherine-E thermal imaging sight is non-ukrainian made. All other are domestic.
My opinion Oplot-M is very capable MBT. Main Advantage of Oplot-M is protection with Nozh-2 ERA against tandem warheads and excellent mobility. Ammunition is the same as T-90 has. But it's lacks the money
As I can see on website of Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau, only Buran-Catherine-E thermal imaging sight is non-ukrainian made. All other are domestic.
My opinion Oplot-M is very capable MBT.
Main Advantage of Oplot-M is protection with Nozh-2 ERA against tandem warheads and excellent mobility. Ammunition is the same as T-90 has. But it's lacks the moneyTo sum it up on my point of view on what may be the root causes.
1. Cost, who ever decides to go it is going to have to put down a large sum of money, a large percentage of credit will not cut it.
2. New inregards to selling *new* tanks on the world market, so yes customer base and the trust factor is lacking.
3. Political situation, though with a new leader that Russia accepts may change things around.
4. T-80 doesn`t have alot of customer base, this could be a spare parts issue if folks are not comfortable dealing direct with Russia.
5. Competition against some of the best proven tank producers in the world and yes, Russia is one of them.
Not true, alot of the other FCS technology has come from cooperation agreements with other countries, including cooperation with Germany.As I can see on website of Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau, only Buran-Catherine-E thermal imaging sight is non-ukrainian made. All other are domestic.
My opinion Oplot-M is very capable MBT.
details about foreign components in Oplot-M
Interesting. I have searched components of Oplot but did'n find any foreign component excepting Catherine FC by Thales Optronics (Glasgow, Great Britain) used in Buran-Catherine-E thermal imaging sight by Photoprylad (Cherkasy, Ukraine). And all other components made by long list of domestic firms. Main FCS manufacturer is NPK Photoprylad (Cherkasy, Ukraine). Please tell details of foreign components in Oplot-M.
May be you mean installing NATO standard 120 mm gun (possible produced in Germany) on Yatagan (T-84-120) version?
The Yatagan MBT is a previous version of T-84 Oplot-M (Yatagan MBT was designed in 2000 year) fitted with a NATO 120mm smoothbore gun fed by a bustle-mounted automatic loader.
To grasz and Feanor,
Ukraine makes their own components with the exception of a few French items, my point was that technologies though have been pulled from western countries inregards to FCS and main gun manufacturing. In the mid nineties to early 2000 time frame both Poland and Czech Republic reached out to France, Germany and Ukraine to upgrade their aging T-72 fleets due to their introduction into NATO, alot of technology information was shared within this group even though nothing really materialized from the cooperation pact, both countries who showed upgrade interest kind of went their seperate ways and we know which routes they have taken. Ukrainian Oplot, T-72 MP, AG and 120 are a direct result from some of this cooperation.
Ukraine makes their own components with the exception of a few French items, my point was that technologies though have been pulled from western countries inregards to FCS and main gun manufacturing. In the mid nineties to early 2000 time frame both Poland and Czech Republic reached out to France, Germany and Ukraine to upgrade their aging T-72 fleets due to their introduction into NATO, alot of technology information was shared within this group even though nothing really materialized from the cooperation pact, both countries who showed upgrade interest kind of went their seperate ways and we know which routes they have taken. Ukrainian Oplot, T-72 MP, AG and 120 are a direct result from some of this cooperation.
... and Oplot manufacturers familiarized with NATO standards. Really interesting. And not only with standards but with technologies also to upgrade T-72-120. This gives advantage to ukrainian Oplot-M as incorporation of solutions and both tank building schools: Soviet (Morozov MBDB is designer of T-34, T-64, T-80UD) and NATO methods.
Anyway there is lacks of money to start serial production of T-84 Oplot-M.
Instead of this Malyshev plant upgrades T-64 to T-64BM Bulat version (deep modernization with modern FCS).