The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

1805

New Member
I think you are bonkers-I suppose you are now going to say we could have won the Battle of Britain without the RAF, despite the fact that the RAF was set up in 1918 because the RNAS and RFC (as was) were incapable of launching a credible defence of Britiah Air Space against German Bombers. You also fail to look at the fact that Governments of the day after WW1 slashed the Defence budget in Britain, and hence all three services spent the years before WW2 and during the early years of WW2 regenerating back to the size they were at in WW1, but obviously with modern equipment and newer tactics.

I don't think the RN would have made any less a job of UK air defence, and had air power been applied more effectively in the Battle of France it might not have been needed. Certainly Dunkirk would have been easier with a Carrier and some Zeros.

However if you contrast Amiens in 1918, the near perfect coordination of artillery, infantry, tanks and aircraft bonbing above with the hopeless performances of the Army 1939-42. The advance nature of RNAS thinking in 1918: Carriers, Independent Bomber Force, Sopwith Cuckoo plans for a Taranto on the German fleet in 1918, with the Fairy Swordfish/Fulmer (I bet you have some romantic view on that junk).

Yes in the 20/30s money was short but the RAF focused on strategic bombing and not on Naval/Army cooperation. Beatty who sat on the joint committy and was initially in favour on an independent force later opposed this when he saw what the RN was left with. Though how much of this was the personality of Trenchard we can only guess, centrally the Germans made a much better job of it


Bit in Bold We already do have common flying schools. As I said in a previous post the RAF trains all Fast Jet pilots. And all the services Helicopter pilots train under one roof at RAF Shawbury.

Yes I was agreeing with the concept, saying even if you had no RAF the new RFC/RNAS should share common resources.

Where have you got this idea from that the RAF are interfering in the Wildcat purchase. Perhaps if you understood the dynamics of Joint Force Helicopter you would realise helicopters from all three services (with exceptions-like SAR and Ship based Helos) are nominally placed under the Army Chain of Command, with a flag officer from any of the three services in command of JFH. In fact the current commander is an Admiral.

I didn't say any of this, I just said it has no relevance to the RAF.

The Army does everything on the land, the Navy does everything at sea, and the RAF does everything in the air. Simplees right??

In the past century the lines have blurred as to who does what and continue to do so (The Marines, the RAF Regiment, the FAA, AAC, and the RLCs landing craft are all examples of this). This idea that the RAF is playing 'games' constantly is also ridiculus-its the nations Air Force, here to defend the nation, be a force for good etc....it doesn't exist to play 'games' with the other three services. And at the end of the day, when the perverbial hits the air conditioning, all three services would be expected to work together to reach the aim set by the Govt.

There was a reported case in the 60s where the RAF change the distance between Singapore and OZ to say they could cover with F111(or maybe TSR2) was what Hambo was referring to.

I think a Nick Cook, of Janes sums up my view nicely, even if he was responding to Col Tim Collins anti-RAF rant:


Its a often quoted line I know, but he says it far better than I ever could.
A common mistake of this debate is to equate anti RAF with anti airpower. If the RN didn't value airpower they would care about an independent airforces.

This is not about the operational application of Airpower it is about the strategic direction. The USN have very similar concerns with the creation of the USAF & A Bomb and the cancellation of the USS United States, but the Korean Wars showed the weakeness of relying on land based and opend the door to the Forrestal
 
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1805

New Member
I think it is too easy to lay the blame for the perceived woes of the RN solely at the foot of the RAF.
An interesting read is RM Crosleys Up in Harms Way. This is a somewhat technical account but the author gives a fascinating account of his wartime Fleet Air Arm carreer and subsequent decades of being a test pilot, pioneering much of the work surrounding the Buccaneer and flying pretty much every other UK and US aircraft

Basically Crosley gives a very candid summary of the lack of understanding of Admirals and the Navy Hierarchy to the possibility of aircraft. So in that sense the Navy itself pre war takes the blame. A fixation with old tactics and no faith in this "new technology" is what hindered the use of aircraft at sea. The use of cariers should have seen off the fixation with battleships early on but the RN sat back and let the RAF take the lead. Where the Japanese and US Admirals saw the future, it could be argued that ours saw battleships. Crosley then gives an account of his and the FAA role in Korea which has been very under reported where carriers played a huge part.

Once the RAF takes the offensive lead bombing the Germans for the bulk of the war and "wins" the battle of Britain its very difficult to argue against the need for the RAF, once the cold War sets in and we base the offensive bulk of the army and RAF in Germany, again its very hard to argue against the role. If our Politicians retreat from East of Suez, again its hard to argue that the RAF cant deal with threats, particularly the threat in questin was the threat of nuclear devastation.

Crosley makes the point in hindsight that it was in some way the Admirals fault we got out of the fixed wing carrier game through stubborn and short sighted attitudes, demanding that the RN would ony be viable if we had two new carriers in the 1960's when if they had swallowed pride and played it more political we could have at least commissioned one CV. Crosley suggests that even in the 1960's and 70;s financial balls ups, the RN could have got one, there was enough "Pro"voices, even Healey that might have kept it. The RN could have kept a small but potent Phantom and Bucc squadron running, just as the french have managed with one carrier. Looking at it in that way, the RN would be in a better position now, ok no Sea Harrier and periods of no aircover for the Fleet but better something than nothing. There is always the possbility of buiding another.

Thats why in the current climate, Im not bothered so much in numbers of F35 or whatever, just build the bloody things, and if it means RAF F35's and pilots flying of it, then so be it, in fact I would happily see a NATO wing of Spanish and Italian F35Bs flying exercises from POW in 2020 just to demonstrate to the politicians the utility of them. As long as we have the ships, we can "up" the capabily, just as we pretty much rebuilt the UK Amphibious forces post Cold war, anythings possible if the world political climate changes.

What the RN needs in a twisted sense if for the next Al Queda fight to be in somewhere like Somalia or other African states. The scenario needs a battlefield lacking infrastructure for fixed wing bases, no friendly bases nearby, it will need a huge coastal area to fight on where the focus is on amphibious forces backed by RN airpower take out terrorists strongholds, patrolling and searching maritime trade routes. In that type of battle the RN will take the spotlight.

The RN bosses should do more to win the argument, the British People need to be told that the supplies of Oil and Gas will run low and its the big stick of the RN Carriers that will mean we punch above our weight in securing supplies. The british public need to be told that the world is buying diesel electric submarines, that the world and his dog are buying SU30s and rearming, a fact tht 99% of the UK public is completely uninterested in or unaware of. The RN and RAF should perhaps combine in a propaganda campaign to demonstrate that they in fact need typhoon to keep current with the rest of the World Airforces and we need Carriers and ASuW vessels despite the Public perception that the only enemy of the UK carries a Kalasnikov and wears a turban. Maybe a few nations flying the PAK FA in a decade will prompt a further F35 batch? we dont know what is around the next corner.

In some ways bashing the Typhoon and the RAF and arguing that The RN or Army could do some functions is pretty counter productive. The simple fact is that if a future warzone has a friendly runway in range of RAF Fast Air, then it makes sense that the RAF use it to fly sorties in support of our aims, rather that send a carrier 6000 miles,taking 2 weeks if the RAF can do the job perfectly well. The flip side is that there will be conflicts where the are no bases and the RN takes the lead.

Its a pretty sad state of affairs that we are saying that UK PLC is incapable of supporting an Army, navy and airforce and typicsl of our cynical politicians that they have set them all fighting, with the sole aim of saving cash. Disgraceful really. Just like they have banned squaddies from writing about their special forces exploits, perhaps its time to ban rotund ex Generals, Admirals and Air Marshalls affiliating themselves to Political Parties?
I agree a great book and also that the Navy has not helped itself. I think the impact on RN talent pool in 1918 is not recognised, some of the best air-minded ones were lost to the Navy, that said they did build some excellent carriers it is just sad they only had poor designs to fly from them.

I was not aware that the Navy could have potentially got away with one carrier in the 60s but it does make sense. it does seem mad when the ships having a 40-50 year life, to try and build all at the same time, and your right we could have probably built another one in late 70/80s. There would have been no Falklands mind then John Nott would have got ride of the Navy in the 80s anyway?

I do think the exit from carriers did lead to a heavy focus on SSN, which has maybe lead to an unbalanced view of their value over SSKs. My father knew an ex Bucaneer pilot who said most left and joined BA over the off of the RAF. Would some of those pilots have progressed into posts, submariers filled? ?
 

ASFC

New Member
A common mistake of this debate is to equate anti RAF with anti airpower. If the RN didn't value airpower the would care about an independent airforces.

This is not about the operational application of Airpower it is about the strategic direction. The USN have very similar concerns with the creation of the USAF & A Bomb and the cancellation of the USS United States, but the Korean Wars showed the weakeness of relying on land based and opend the door to the Forrestal
I have stated my reasons-take them or leave them. The use of air power = dedicated air forces. Any Navy and any Army will never put resources into air power in the way an independent air force can-it is just not their core activity, hence why the RFC and RNAS where so inept and defending UK Air Space from German attack-it was why the RAF was set up. And if you must know Trenchard was always 50/50 on whether an independent Air Force was needed or not.

Speaking of the above, and as you have brought up the USN, in the run up to the USAs next QDR, the USN has raised the issue that they now spend more money on buying Aircraft than on buying ships-their core activity as a Navy, rather than spending that money on building ships, which is a concern to their top brass. The States show what happens when every service decides it needs its own Air Force.
 

1805

New Member
I have stated my reasons-take them or leave them. The use of air power = dedicated air forces. Any Navy and any Army will never put resources into air power in the way an independent air force can-it is just not their core activity, hence why the RFC and RNAS where so inept and defending UK Air Space from German attack-it was why the RAF was set up. And if you must know Trenchard was always 50/50 on whether an independent Air Force was needed or not.

You clearly have little idea about UK air defence in WW1 if you think the RNAS response was totally inept. I think we will have to disagree on this one.

Speaking of the above, and as you have brought up the USN, in the run up to the USAs next QDR, the USN has raised the issue that they now spend more money on buying Aircraft than on buying ships-their core activity as a Navy, rather than spending that money on building ships, which is a concern to their top brass. The States show what happens when every service decides it needs its own Air Force.
I might agree the USN & USAF could do more to coordinate on very similar aircraft requirements (as could the RN/RAF) but its the US Army that lucks out; little focus on A10s. I am not overly surprised the USN spends more money on Aircraft, actually when you look at it apart from their subs and USMC (which operates its own mini carrier force) nearly all the USN is dedicated to airpower ,all those Burkes/Ticonderogas are only their to protect the carriers. However I am so glad the US didn't follow us and create an independent airforce in the 1920s. The idea of the USN with Fulmers/Swordfish calibre aircraft at Midway is not pleasant!! The IJN would have had us out of India and the Middle East very quickly. As it was we had to pull back to Mombasa
 

ASFC

New Member
You clearly have little idea about UK air defence in WW1 if you think the RNAS response was totally inept. I think we will have to disagree on this one.
I know enough to know that Uk Air Defence was the responsibility (presuming they expected the attacks to come) of those two organisations, and that the fact the Zeppelins got through to London was enough of a catalyst to push them on the road towards the RAF. That and the growth in the use of aircraft in the military in general.
 

matthew22081991

New Member
I couldn't be asked to respond to alot of that, however I think you will find they are RAF Harriers, manned by RAF personnel if on an RAF Sqn, or by FAA personnel if its the NSW. The whole of Joint Force Harrier rotated through Afghanistan for several years, made up from both services. If you are going to make claims at least make them factual!

And the idea that the RAF is the route of all evil, out to get the RN and the cause of all British Foreign policy problems is pure fantasy.
But the RAF has been out to gain independent control of the country's air assets since it was created. Granted this isn't every single RAF member, but the higher echelons are out to get control of the air forces of the UK.

It was a mixture of FAA and RAF personnel, in aircraft that are in the Navy, and should be controlled by the Navy. I find it ridiculous that when the RAF should be sending Tornadoes or Eurofighters to Afghanistan they send the RN's jets. In part I think it was political, to demonstrate their control over Navy assets, and also because they knew that they'd be seen to have the credit amongst the public.

So my claims were factual, as I wasn't talking about who manned them but what they were a part of.

Now of course this meant the RN was unable to properly send carriers abroad for many years, which reduced capability (the Orion 08 deployment showed this, and there was a lot of complaining amongst the Navy and the pilots that they hadn't done enough of this sort of thing, and particularly amongst the Admiralty).

It is something the RAF has been doing for years. There was a famous situation where they moved pretty much everything in the Indian Ocean 400 miles to the west on a map, to show they could get there and carriers weren't needed, one of the reasons the carriers of the 60s weren't built. In the end their own replacement wasn't either, but had it been they couldn't have, as they had promised, given a fleet abroad air cover from Britain.

Take a look at this: Disband the RAF, says Iraq war's inspirational colonel - Telegraph

Now perhaps disband is over the top, since I don't then trust the Navy or the Army to properly look after UK air defence as Col Collins proposes. However, serious reductions can be made, and the Army and the Navy can take over huge parts of the RAF as he suggests.

Also, considering the RAF's reply about them saving Britain in the 1940s, they didn't give much of a reply as to a recent combat role they have played.

Anyway, I think you mistook me for being belligerantly against everyone in the RAF, it makes me angry that they are so careless in the politics, but it would not surprise me if the other two services did it too if they had the opportunity to tear the RAF up (i.e. they'd go further than is sensible). The Army has already taken a very silly line by saying that the Navy is a waste of time, that all wars in the future will be fought like the one in Afghanistan! Including inter-state wars!!! Sir Richards is taking a VERY short-term look on this one, and needs to consider what will be giving him his air support (carriers) and what will be getting him there (Navy) and what will be supplying him (Navy/RAF) if there is an inter-state war, or even another war on terrorism like that in Afghanistan. What if Iran or North Korea kick off?
 

ASFC

New Member
But the RAF has been out to gain independent control of the country's air assets since it was created. Granted this isn't every single RAF member, but the higher echelons are out to get control of the air forces of the UK.

It was a mixture of FAA and RAF personnel, in aircraft that are in the Navy, and should be controlled by the Navy. I find it ridiculous that when the RAF should be sending Tornadoes or Eurofighters to Afghanistan they send the RN's jets. In part I think it was political, to demonstrate their control over Navy assets, and also because they knew that they'd be seen to have the credit amongst the public.

So my claims were factual, as I wasn't talking about who manned them but what they were a part of.
They are RAF Jets-how many times do I have to repeat myself. The Navies Harriers were retired (for better or for worse-personally I think for worse) in 2006. Joint Force Harrier is supposed to be manned 50/50 by RAF/RN, with the RAF providing the Harriers. So no your claims were not factual.

The lack of airtime on our Carriers is down to the early withdrawal of the Sea Harrier-an MoD costsaving measure no less.

It should also be noted that the RAF had been trying to send Tornados for at least 2 years before they really deployed-but they were waiting for infrastructure upgrades in Afghanistan so that they could be used.
 

1805

New Member
I know enough to know that Uk Air Defence was the responsibility (presuming they expected the attacks to come) of those two organisations, and that the fact the Zeppelins got through to London was enough of a catalyst to push them on the road towards the RAF. That and the growth in the use of aircraft in the military in general.
Actually I believe UK Air Defence was mainly RNAS responsibility, and most of this issues were about the failure to intercept Zeppelins. However the RNAS developed incendiary bullets and destroyed the Zeppelin menace and also proactively commission the first heavy bombers to take the fight to the Zeppelin bases.

Most people don't think the RNAS could have done more and the public outcry was an over reaction at a time when 1000s where dying on the western front.

Trouble with the RAF/independent airforce argument is, when you take the Battle of Britain emotion out of it and do look deeper it just doesn't stake up.
 

1805

New Member
They are RAF Jets-how many times do I have to repeat myself. The Navies Harriers were retired (for better or for worse-personally I think for worse) in 2006. Joint Force Harrier is supposed to be manned 50/50 by RAF/RN, with the RAF providing the Harriers. So no your claims were not factual.

The lack of airtime on our Carriers is down to the early withdrawal of the Sea Harrier-an MoD costsaving measure no less.

It should also be noted that the RAF had been trying to send Tornados for at least 2 years before they really deployed-but they were waiting for infrastructure upgrades in Afghanistan so that they could be used.
Thats ok then as long as we make war on enemies that can wait 2 years for the RAF to deploy!
 

matthew22081991

New Member
They are RAF Jets-how many times do I have to repeat myself. The Navies Harriers were retired (for better or for worse-personally I think for worse) in 2006. Joint Force Harrier is supposed to be manned 50/50 by RAF/RN, with the RAF providing the Harriers. So no your claims were not factual.
They were RAF jets, they are now RN jets with NAVY printed on the sides. Obviously the RAF kept some but handed over a lot to the RN (don't know exact numbers but I tried to find out, do you know?). I agree retiring Sea Harriers was for worse. Joint Force Harrier was also supposed to have one senior Naval officer of flag rank, and did for a few months before the RAF used the excuse of a review to turf him out and leave the command entirely to the RAF...

The lack of airtime on our Carriers is down to the early withdrawal of the Sea Harrier-an MoD costsaving measure no less.
Well it's that and the use of the supposed replacements in Afghanistan.

It should also be noted that the RAF had been trying to send Tornados for at least 2 years before they really deployed-but they were waiting for infrastructure upgrades in Afghanistan so that they could be used.
I did not know that. But I still think Joint Force Harrier without Navy control is a bad idea. But I suppose that justifies sending Harriers to Afghanistan instead of Tornadoes.
 

matthew22081991

New Member
Trouble with the RAF/independent airforce argument is, when you take the Battle of Britain emotion out of it and do look deeper it just doesn't stake up.
To a large extent I agree. I don't think we should get rid of the RAF, but it is justifiable to get rid of large portions of it. Give it more helicopters, hand over control of the Harriers and the F35s to the Navy when they get here, and give it less Eurofighters, since it doesn't take many to cover the whole of Britain. This doubtlessly still needs to be done considering the Russian flights over Britain, but it doesn't take many.

So the RAF will get one bonus in that they'll have more helicopters for Afghanistan.

And, now that I think about it, they need more transport planes to support operations too.

And guys should we perhaps consider starting a different thread for this? We've gone really off topic here and whilst we're still talking about the Navy, I think a RAF thread might not go amiss, or perhaps an RAF/RN thread.
 

1805

New Member
To a large extent I agree. I don't think we should get rid of the RAF, but it is justifiable to get rid of large portions of it. Give it more helicopters, hand over control of the Harriers and the F35s to the Navy when they get here, and give it less Eurofighters, since it doesn't take many to cover the whole of Britain. This doubtlessly still needs to be done considering the Russian flights over Britain, but it doesn't take many.

So the RAF will get one bonus in that they'll have more helicopters for Afghanistan.

And, now that I think about it, they need more transport planes to support operations too.

And guys should we perhaps consider starting a different thread for this? We've gone really off topic here and whilst we're still talking about the Navy, I think a RAF thread might not go amiss, or perhaps an RAF/RN thread.
Agree I probably wouldn't try and disband the RAF as it would raise to many emotional issues which would just cloud the real point about getting the right kit/value....we have seen that here!!

I would hand over all heavy lift helicopters to the AAC and all the F35s/Nimrods to the RN. Importantly I would say the AAC/RN should develop a sensible light attack aircraft on the Hawk 200 (with hooks for catapults) to prevent the shear cost of deploying Typhoon/Tornado against tribesman. Gen Richards has a point there, as I'm sure Super Tucano isn't right for it either!
 

ASFC

New Member
They were RAF jets, they are now RN jets with NAVY printed on the sides. Obviously the RAF kept some but handed over a lot to the RN (don't know exact numbers but I tried to find out, do you know?). I agree retiring Sea Harriers was for worse. Joint Force Harrier was also supposed to have one senior Naval officer of flag rank, and did for a few months before the RAF used the excuse of a review to turf him out and leave the command entirely to the RAF...

.
JFH strength is supposed to be 48, not counting those in the OCU at Wittering.

The plan for JFH was to retire the Navys Harriers and just use the RAFs ones....hence they are RAF owned. Perhaps looking at this link will clarify the matter; House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 25 Jan 2010 (pt 0003) Half way down, the MOD counts the Harriers under the RAF totals. Similarly, I gave the Naval Strike Wing Gallery on the RN website a good browse, and found no Harriers with anything suggesting they are Navy owned.......

Anyway its all semantics. JFH is what it is, and does the job that is required of it, regardless of who 'owns' the aircraft.
 

matthew22081991

New Member
JFH strength is supposed to be 48, not counting those in the OCU at Wittering.

The plan for JFH was to retire the Navys Harriers and just use the RAFs ones....hence they are RAF owned. Perhaps looking at this link will clarify the matter; House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 25 Jan 2010 (pt 0003) Half way down, the MOD counts the Harriers under the RAF totals. Similarly, I gave the Naval Strike Wing Gallery on the RN website a good browse, and found no Harriers with anything suggesting they are Navy owned.......

Anyway its all semantics. JFH is what it is, and does the job that is required of it, regardless of who 'owns' the aircraft.
Well it seems complicated to me, they are in 800 and 801 NAS, which would make them seem RN owned, but as you say appear RAF owned in the Parliamentary notes. I know for certain that at least some have 'NAVY' printed on the side though, although that could indicate operator I suppose. What's the OCU?

Yes I agree it does the job required of it, what worries me is whether it will continue to do so under a different circumstance, where the Navy needs to send a carrier abroad with aircraft.

However all of this shades into insignificance when it is shown they have no integrated long-range air-to-air capability or radar, rendering them far less useful than the Sea Harrier in an air-to-air situation.
 

1805

New Member
Well it seems complicated to me, they are in 800 and 801 NAS, which would make them seem RN owned, but as you say appear RAF owned in the Parliamentary notes. I know for certain that at least some have 'NAVY' printed on the side though, although that could indicate operator I suppose. What's the OCU?

Yes I agree it does the job required of it, what worries me is whether it will continue to do so under a different circumstance, where the Navy needs to send a carrier abroad with aircraft.

However all of this shades into insignificance when it is shown they have no integrated long-range air-to-air capability or radar, rendering them far less useful than the Sea Harrier in an air-to-air situation.
This is where I am very critical of the RN, they don't work closely enough to ensure we maximise our industrial position. Why didn't they ensure the FA2 was based on the newer AV8B design, this would have provided a much better aircraft and made is more viable for their retention, as they would have been common with the RAF GR7-9, just with different radars.

I know a lot were upgrades but in the long run it would have been cheaper to have gone for more new builds, even if the total numbers was less....as its nil now!! The last ones were only delived in 1999. 18 were new builds, first delivery only in 93.

Similarly, I go a long with the need to have a STOL F35b where you are operating from less than 30,000t ships. But as soon as it became clear the RN intended to go for CVs over 35,000t they should have gone in with the Typhoon. Its too late to go making Naval versions after the its been flying, but they must have know 15 years ago!

What a waste and they have the cheek to ask the taxpayers to trust them with more funds, time to sack a few Admirals to encourage the others.
 
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Hambo

New Member
Yet again I cant really see what it matters if the F35B is classed as RAF or RN assests just as long as sufficient sea time is given to keep a top class defense capability.

As I understand it, it will be significantly easier to operate than the Harrier with rolling landings, the latest avionics etc operating from a ship 3 times bigger that the current carriers. It should be feasible to train up sufficient pilots surely.

Lets just remember where we are today, we could put out a "strike carrier" with maybe 9 Harriers? with no radar or BVR missiles, primarily roled for ground attack, and some AEW Sea Kings. At a push the second carrier could carry a similar load but may act as a LPH.

The F35B is such a leap of capability over the Harrier that even if we put the same number on the QE or POW the hitting power of Her Majestys Govt is massively increased. RN or RAF, whatever, it is still going to be an awesome leap.

During the Arks' final flourish, she was only putting out 14 Buccs and 12 Phantoms. I think weare being a touch ungrateful, hopefully in 10 years we will have an active 65,000 tonne carrier able to operate the most capable aircraft the UK has ever possessed, numbers of aircraft can be added, but at the moment Id settle for an airgroup of ten, just buy and build it.

Lets just hope the carriers are safe, bit of a mixed mesage in the Times from Liam Fox saying that we need maritime assets, but at the same time stating that in opposition He doesnt know the details of various projects clauses and cancellation costs.I think its safe, better a massive half empty QE with a handfull of "joint" owned F35'S than no carriers at all.
 

ASFC

New Member
What's the OCU?
Operational Conversion Unit-in this case 20 (reserve) Squadron at RAF Wittering. They are used to take pilots who have never flown a type before, or who are in need of refresher training, and trains them. It too is supposed to be manned 50/50 with the RN, but I don't know if it is.
 

ASFC

New Member
Yet again I cant really see what it matters if the F35B is classed as RAF or RN assests just as long as sufficient sea time is given to keep a top class defense capability.

As I understand it, it will be significantly easier to operate than the Harrier with rolling landings, the latest avionics etc operating from a ship 3 times bigger that the current carriers. It should be feasible to train up sufficient pilots surely.

Lets just remember where we are today, we could put out a "strike carrier" with maybe 9 Harriers? with no radar or BVR missiles, primarily roled for ground attack, and some AEW Sea Kings. At a push the second carrier could carry a similar load but may act as a LPH.

The F35B is such a leap of capability over the Harrier that even if we put the same number on the QE or POW the hitting power of Her Majestys Govt is massively increased. RN or RAF, whatever, it is still going to be an awesome leap.

During the Arks' final flourish, she was only putting out 14 Buccs and 12 Phantoms. I think weare being a touch ungrateful, hopefully in 10 years we will have an active 65,000 tonne carrier able to operate the most capable aircraft the UK has ever possessed, numbers of aircraft can be added, but at the moment Id settle for an airgroup of ten, just buy and build it.

Lets just hope the carriers are safe, bit of a mixed mesage in the Times from Liam Fox saying that we need maritime assets, but at the same time stating that in opposition He doesnt know the details of various projects clauses and cancellation costs.I think its safe, better a massive half empty QE with a handfull of "joint" owned F35'S than no carriers at all.
Absolutely bang on-any jump in capability is welcomed. As for Liam Fox, he is right-he can't make any claims as to what he can and can't cancel or cut back without knowing how much it is going to cost. At any rate, I hope the Navy sat down and wrote out a contract that would make it hard for the Carriers to be cancelled...say one along similar lines to the Eurofighter contract!
 

Troothsayer

New Member
Absolutely bang on-any jump in capability is welcomed. As for Liam Fox, he is right-he can't make any claims as to what he can and can't cancel or cut back without knowing how much it is going to cost. At any rate, I hope the Navy sat down and wrote out a contract that would make it hard for the Carriers to be cancelled...say one along similar lines to the Eurofighter contract!
On the last point, it's probably doubtful given that Admiral Stanhope was saying just last year its not too late to cut the carriers. One of the more bizarre bits of PR i've seen.

The bottom line is the Tories will not make much saving from CVF cancellation. Indeed it will only result in lots of job losses and a great big hoohaa north of the border that they could hardly afford given their political position in Scotland.

Given that the RN have wittled away their surface fleet to get CVF, and that the alternative is the RN becoming just a coastal defence force added to the fact that the carriers aren't even the expensive part of CVF then I would assume all those high up in the RN are concerened with just getting the carriers into service even if they carry half a dozen F35 and Harriers for the next decade.

Being that half of the proposed F-35 purchase is not due until 2025, the major savings to be had from the CVF project is the initial F35 buy. According to the procurement timeline we are due to have 36 F-35 in service by 2018. How much is going to be saved by cutting those numbers? It's savings now which the Tories will be looking at.

I agree with you though, HMS QE with 9 F-35 a few Harriers & an assortment of different Heli's is a massive step up in capability from the current hotch potch. I'm hoping the Admiralty is pushing bigtime for this as a last acceptable resort from their point of view.
 

1805

New Member
There has also been strong support from Gordon Brown re both the Carriers and F35s, but I notice the Tories have not rushed to confirm they will keep.

Does anyone have any views on what could be or is likely to be cut. I hope they cut programmes not commited, rather than ones already contracted as they will just waste more scarce moneys.

Also has anyone seen anything on RFA? Since they seem to have abandoned MARS as a joint programme and moved to working separate projects I have not seen anything.

I could see a few of the RFAs not being replaced 1:1. Other areas they could consider saving money would be selling: Ocean, couple of Bays, one Invincible, 2-3 of the last T23 and as have been mentioned cut the F35s to 50-60 with all going to the RN.
 
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