NZDF General discussion thread

[Twickiwi]

What's going on here then?

"The [NZ] Government is not commenting on a report that the United States ban on military exercises with New Zealand is expected to be dropped."

Govt mum over US dropping military exercises ban | Stuff.co.nz

I would have expected a NZ govt to crow about this. Not everything in politics is quid-pro-quo but the Government's silence suggests an agreed low key (if you'll excuse the pun) rearrangement of defence policy. It only whets my appetite to speculate on the conclusions of the Defence White Paper. I'll follow the government's lead and refrain from xmas present list making this time. However, I expect an increase in defence spending and even a policy increasing defence capability now.

Should make the neighbours a little less disgruntled.

 

[gf0012-aust]

"The [NZ] Government is not commenting on a report that the United States ban on military exercises with New Zealand is expected to be dropped."

Govt mum over US dropping military exercises ban | Stuff.co.nz

I would have expected a NZ govt to crow about this. Not everything in politics is quid-pro-quo but the Government's silence suggests an agreed low key (if you'll excuse the pun) rearrangement of defence policy. It only whets my appetite to speculate on the conclusions of the Defence White Paper. I'll follow the government's lead and refrain from xmas present list making this time. However, I expect an increase in defence spending and even a policy increasing defence capability now.

Should make the neighbours a little less disgruntled.

The US has been progressively increasing NZ's level of access into some of the regional intel for the last few years. The Govt of the day has elected to not say much I suspect for local political reasons.

 

[Cadredave]

The US has been progressively increasing NZ's level of access into some of the regional intel for the last few years. The Govt of the day has elected to not say much I suspect for local political reasons.
certainly

Its actually been common knowledge "from within" about doors opening.

You are right in what you are saying , it has been common knowledge within NZDF about the doors opening, example V Coy HQ deploying to Hawaii to observe & watch a Stryker Bn Live field firing & to access its C3, Mortar & logistics variant of the Stryker (Lav III) for possible NZ use in 1RNZIR if NZDF is able to swap our vehicle for some of theres, not only that but 2/1 RNZIR training in Germany with US troops. So from Army point of view the doors are already ajar just waiting for them to be fully opened.

 

[exported_kiwi]

"The [NZ] Government is not commenting on a report that the United States ban on military exercises with New Zealand is expected to be dropped."

Govt mum over US dropping military exercises ban | Stuff.co.nz

I would have expected a NZ govt to crow about this. Not everything in politics is quid-pro-quo but the Government's silence suggests an agreed low key (if you'll excuse the pun) rearrangement of defence policy. It only whets my appetite to speculate on the conclusions of the Defence White Paper. I'll follow the government's lead and refrain from xmas present list making this time. However, I expect an increase in defence spending and even a policy increasing defence capability now.

Should make the neighbours a little less disgruntled.

It's good that the NZgov't is keeping this "under the radar" for now. It's about time the dunderheads in Wellington got their fingers out of their collective....you know where's.

 

[Spetsznaz]

NZ is not under pressure from treaties or military suppression. So the likelihood of NZ to become a serious power is there

 

[exported_kiwi]

NZ is not under pressure from treaties or military suppression. So the likelihood of NZ to become a serious power is there

Well friend, those Kiwis, like myself, who've witnessed a serious degradation of our military would welcome a move towards becoming a serious power, at least in our region. No doubt this'd be welcomed by both Canberra and Washington.

 

[Spetsznaz]

Well friend, those Kiwis, like myself, who've witnessed a serious degradation of our military would welcome a move towards becoming a serious power, at least in our region. No doubt this'd be welcomed by both Canberra and Washington.

Who is Kiwis? I hope i am not being stupid

Anyway look at Germany being under pressure from a treaty

 

[Todjaeger]

Who is Kiwis? I hope i am not being stupid

Anyway look at Germany being under pressure from a treaty

The NZDF is the New Zealand Defence Force, New Zealanders are often known as Kiwis.

This thread is an ongoing discussion on the status of the NZDF, as well as ways to make it more effective, more capable, etc.

Being a new member, it can be very helpful to thread through the prior posts, particularly for a longstanding thread such as this one. This can help establish not only the subject matter, but where different participants are both on the subject as well as relative expertise on the subject matter,

-Cheers

 

[Spetsznaz]

No its just that I never knew that New Zealenders are often known as Kiwis, I even have trouble pronouncing it

 

[KiwiRob]

Well friend, those Kiwis, like myself, who've witnessed a serious degradation of our military would welcome a move towards becoming a serious power, at least in our region. No doubt this'd be welcomed by both Canberra and Washington.

Amoungst the Southern Pacific nations we already are a regional power, what more do you expect?

 

[dave_kiwi]

NZ SAS - Kabul Action

Seen on NZ Stuff, that John Key has acknowledged that the NZ SAS were involved in a limited way re the latest attack in Kabul by the Taliban. Also, mainly by implication, seems like some of their "students" were involved in the fire fight.

As usual pretty skimpy details .... but here's a couple of links:

NZ STUFF:

Key confirms NZ involvement in Taliban battle | Stuff.co.nz

NY TIMES:

Kabul Attack Shows Resilience of Afghan Militants - NYTimes.com

QUOTE: Monday’s gun battle was notable for the absence of United States soldiers: a small group of commandos from New Zealand were the only Western soldiers on the scene.

AND this one:

QUOTE:

One group of Afghan commandos said they had come straight from a training class.

“We were going through drills when we got the word,” said Bawahuddin, a young member of an antiterrorism squad, standing behind a wall as he prepared to join the fight. Bawahuddin flashed a thumbs-up sign. “We’re ready — we’re ready.”

So, wonder what the SAS were doing ..

 

[KiwiRob]

So, wonder what the SAS were doing ..

According to my brother in law (Norwegian Army, Telemark Battalion, currently in Kabul) our boys were heavily engaged and kicked some serious butt, he was impressed, sent several SMS's about it.

I really don't think we should know what they are doing or where they are, we just need to be proud of them, they are top flight operators, highly respected and an asset to NZ, we are lucky to have them.

 

[t68]

I remember reading a while ago talk of forming an ANZAC battalion, is there any news on this or has the idea been scrapped.

How would this affect policy/manning level’s for the kiwis would it entail increasing the size of the NZDF in terms of battalion strength or an additional battalion to be rotated thru the ANZAC Battalion?

Would it be in the best interest by forming another battalion along the line of 2 CDO REGT and the ANZAC battalion be made up of company between the Aussie/Kiwi CDO REGT on board the Canberra LHD when they arrive.

I do believe it would be in the Kiwis best interest to form a Marine/commando battalion to complement the existing Battalions and provide limited relief for the SAS.

 

[Cadredave]

I remember reading a while ago talk of forming an ANZAC battalion, is there any news on this or has the idea been scrapped.

How would this affect policy/manning level’s for the kiwis would it entail increasing the size of the NZDF in terms of battalion strength or an additional battalion to be rotated thru the ANZAC Battalion?

Would it be in the best interest by forming another battalion along the line of 2 CDO REGT and the ANZAC battalion be made up of company between the Aussie/Kiwi CDO REGT on board the Canberra LHD when they arrive.

I do believe it would be in the Kiwis best interest to form a Marine/commando battalion to complement the existing Battalions and provide limited relief for the SAS.

A thirld Bn has already been ruled out by the NZDF, adding the Bn is the easy part what follows is the huge increase in Combat Spt & Combat Services Spt to provide for all three Inf bn, as of right now all force modernising plans are on hold until the Def White paper in March/April is released only minor changes are occuring. A Commando Bn is out of our Budget a Ranger Coy is not hopefully this will be regenerated in the very near future.

 

[MrConservative]

I remember reading a while ago talk of forming an ANZAC battalion, is there any news on this or has the idea been scrapped.

How would this affect policy/manning level’s for the kiwis would it entail increasing the size of the NZDF in terms of battalion strength or an additional battalion to be rotated thru the ANZAC Battalion?

Would it be in the best interest by forming another battalion along the line of 2 CDO REGT and the ANZAC battalion be made up of company between the Aussie/Kiwi CDO REGT on board the Canberra LHD when they arrive.

I do believe it would be in the Kiwis best interest to form a Marine/commando battalion to complement the existing Battalions and provide limited relief for the SAS.

The plans for an “ANZAC Battalion” announced earlier last year at the ministerial level, are a long term development between the ADF and NZDF. It is more of a closer integration of existing force elements for a joint deployment situation than both countries raising a new Battalion Group together from scratch. It is still early days yet and more will be revealed no doubt when the White Paper comes out in a couple of months. Though even that will be fairly embryonic.

Cadre Dave is right in that the NZDF ruled out the raising of a third battalion for RNZIR. The last time the Army did a Land Forces Review back in 2000 they estimated that the raising of a new 3rd regular army infantry battalion and its support elements would mean that the Army budget would need to be raised by 40%, not counting the capital cost involved which would run into a significant amount.

In many ways with an increased emphasis and support going into the Army reserve forces over the next five years and the mooted re-development of a company sized “Ranger” element within the Army structure by the current minister it is probably more prudent than putting the scarce time, money and manpower into a 3rd infantry battalion and its support elements at this stage.

I do think your point over a focused Marine Commando element is valid. A battalion sized organisation may be over-reaching but there is always the option of developing a further company sized element down the track to give 1 NZSAS Group an expanded maritime role to support its current boat troops, like what the new 1 Commando does with the CT role and a potential ‘Rangers’ company could provide in enhancing the green role. In some respects 1 NZSAS Group with A & B Squadron, and 1 Commando, and with the addition of company sized Ranger and Marine elements would be a ‘defacto’ third battalion sized unit.

 

[dave_kiwi]

According to my brother in law (Norwegian Army, Telemark Battalion, currently in Kabul) our boys were heavily engaged and kicked some serious butt, he was impressed, sent several SMS's about it...

Add in the fact that the famous "photo" showed the SAS leaving a building where subsequently three (3) terrorist bodies is found .. :soldier.

Have to admit, torn between wanting people to know NZ actually does contribute, and shuddering about all the excess publicity SAS are getting.

Guess we wil have to wait for the <sic> second edition of the book: NZSAS: The First Fifty Years Hardback, no doubt entitled: The Second Fifty Years, in about 55 years time ....... bugger might not be around to see it ope

 

[Kiwi_Kid]

That they can hold their territory? Against whom? NZ is so far away from everything that it is definitely under the top 10 of the less threatened countries on earth.

I think we had an interesting thread about wether NZ should get back fighter jets and for what price.

BTW, if anybody overhelms your fighters then (If you purchase some) and lands troops you are doomed.

Modern equipment is also a bit over the top.
The artillery? Easy prey for every enemy with a countable counterfire capability.
Your AA? 12x Mistral are not what I would call a SAM shield.
The 2 ANZACs. Also not a top ship anymore (If they have ever been one) without major modernization.
Your AT? 24x Javelin, despite being modern, are just a very low number.

And that is just the main factor. Numbers.
For sure for Oceania standards it is ok, but OCeania is for the most demilitarised region in the world with only two other countries possessing armed forces worth the name (Indonesia and Australia) and both are stronger than NZ.

I would just like to say that you do make a good point about having the gear but just not enought of it but on the topic of NZ being too far away from any threat............. I belive that the greatest threat is the belief that there is no threat and that these days no country is in isolation as any one could get to any part of the planet in a matter of hours and the same goes for the millitarys of the world. Therfore i belive that NZ does under estimate the importance of its millitary and does not supply or give it the kit it should have...........but i will say that i do understand that we have other areas to deal with (education, crime, ect)............... I would still up the capibilities of our armed forces!!

 

[Kiwi_Kid]

Add in the fact that the famous "photo" showed the SAS leaving a building where subsequently three (3) terrorist bodies is found .. :soldier.

Have to admit, torn between wanting people to know NZ actually does contribute, and shuddering about all the excess publicity SAS are getting.

Guess we wil have to wait for the <sic> second edition of the book: NZSAS: The First Fifty Years Hardback, no doubt entitled: The Second Fifty Years, in about 55 years time ....... bugger might not be around to see it ope

I think that the NZDF does a great job with what the have good on ya SAS

 

[t68]

I would just like to say that you do make a good point about having the gear but just not enought of it but on the topic of NZ being too far away from any threat............. I belive that the greatest threat is the belief that there is no threat and that these days no country is in isolation as any one could get to any part of the planet in a matter of hours and the same goes for the millitarys of the world. Therfore i belive that NZ does under estimate the importance of its millitary and does not supply or give it the kit it should have...........but i will say that i do understand that we have other areas to deal with (education, crime, ect)............... I would still up the capibilities of our armed forces!!

One also has to look at the situation in context,

1 strategic environment
2 population /economic
NZ is in a stagnate strategic environment in that there is no direct threat to NZ now and the short term, longer term who knows what could pop up in the future

NZ shares no borders with any one and exits in a fairly isolated pert of the world with a small population base to fund any grand platform in great numbers without withdrawing funding from other just as important areas.

The NZ defence force is capable of making a stand in the short term of days till help arrive via Australia and i don’t think the US would blindly stand by if there was a direct attack on NZ soverenty.
One could also say this about the ADF and it’s holding of defence equipment and ordnance holdings, if some one was to get a foot hold on Aussie territory i am led to believe that Australia only has enough war shots of various kind’s to last three day’s of high intensity conflict.

Like Australia, New Zealand would increase there holding‘s if an imminent situation were to arise

 

[Lucasnz]

The NZ defence force is capable of making a stand in the short term of days till help arrive via Australia and i don’t think the US would blindly stand by if there was a direct attack on NZ soverenty.

I have to disagree with this comment. Assuming the threat is short notice, which denotes a small raiding force (probably as a distraction to other regional events) New Zealand lacks an effective anti shipping capability in terms of Anti Ship missiles, including a survival launch capability (Mmm let me think P-3 vs SM-3 type missile who wins) along with the aircraft and ship numbers to launch launch them and a sub standard ASW capability.