NZDF General discussion thread

[MrConservative]

Actually the wages of NZ service personnel took a huge boost a few years back to align it with NZ market rates. Compared to what they use to get paid its a huge improvement. Given the current wage freeze across the state sector at the moment however some of the gains will be lost, but thats life. The sea going / field allowance issue is not ideal I agree, but right now issues around housing etc for defence personnel need to be resolved. Some of the places they have to live in are dives.

Happy posting - enjoy the middle watch.

The housing issue is very important and one of the reasons why personnel either stay on or move on. Thankfully at the moment the NZDF is managing to hang on to its people and also attract new recruits during this recession. However the recession will not last and future prospects, pay and housing will be on the rank and files minds again in the future. I hope that when the Defence Review is released on 31 March next year these issues will be further resolved with a sounder footing.

 

[jchan77]

Best quickest options???

18 Eurofighter Typhoons's
12 Hawk Light Jets
6 Tiger ARH
8 A400m
6 P-8 Poseidon
12 NH90
18 A109 Light Helis

2 More frigates
1 More MRV

38 Challenger II Tanks
40 More Javelin MRAAW

 

[Sea Toby]

18 Eurofighter Typhoons's
12 Hawk Light Jets
6 Tiger ARH
8 A400m
6 P-8 Poseidon
12 NH90
18 A109 Light Helis

2 More frigates
1 More MRV

38 Challenger II Tanks
40 More Javelin MRAAW

I was thinking if the white paper revealed these new purchases, New Zealand would be lucky. Such as 5 Poseidons, 5 Hercules, a tanker, a hydrographic ship, and a replacement big artillery gun. I fully expect NZ will send their pilots to train in Australia. This small list would probably cost NZ $2 billion in NZ dollars over the next ten years or so... Replacements only... No growth...

 

[jchan77]

I was thinking if the white paper revealed these new purchases, New Zealand would be lucky. Such as 5 Poseidons, 5 Hercules, a tanker, a hydrographic ship, and a replacement big artillery gun.

when is the white paper coming out?

if it is out, can you give me the link?

 

[Todjaeger]

18 Eurofighter Typhoons's
12 Hawk Light Jets
6 Tiger ARH
8 A400m
6 P-8 Poseidon
12 NH90
18 A109 Light Helis

2 More frigates
1 More MRV

38 Challenger II Tanks
40 More Javelin MRAAW

AND

when is the white paper coming out?

if it is out, can you give me the link?

AND

I was thinking if the white paper revealed these new purchases, New Zealand would be lucky. Such as 5 Poseidons, 5 Hercules, a tanker, a hydrographic ship, and a replacement big artillery gun. I fully expect NZ will send their pilots to train in Australia. This small list would probably cost NZ $2 billion in NZ dollars over the next ten years or so... Replacements only... No growth...

Oh boy, where to start...

The White Paper is not out yet, IIRC the publicly released version is due out around March. It will probably be available for download from the NZDF site most likely.

As for the equipment listed, why on Earth would that equipment be purchased? There is only one item in that list which could be a direct 1:1 replacement for current NZDF kit and that is the P-8A Poseidon. Everything else is either a new capability to the NZDF, or a significant increase in numbers for the NZDF. When I last checked, the Fly-away cost was ~US$200 million each, nevermind what the TCO would be. Given the current budget and % of GDP used for defence, the RNZAF cannot really expect to afford a 1:1 replacement of P-3K Orion for P-8A Poseidon. 6 P-8As plus the rest of the items on the list, not happening.

Could the poster of the list please explain why they feel the items they listed are either needed or would be good for the NZDF to have, where they would fit within the NZDF force structure, and how NZ would pay to purchase and operate them?

I myself am at a loss as to how the last could be accomplished without tripling (or perhaps more) the NZDF budget, and I do not see how any Kiwi Government could do that without committing political suicide, absent a clear and direct threat to NZ itself.

-Cheers

 

[MrConservative]

when is the white paper coming out?

if it is out, can you give me the link?

If you read my post prior to yours (albeit talking about mundane yet important matters such as defence housing, recruitment etc) you would have found that the Defence Review and the White Paper Discussion document that accompanies it, will be due out on the 31st March 2010.

 

[MrConservative]

18 Eurofighter Typhoons's
12 Hawk Light Jets
6 Tiger ARH
8 A400m
6 P-8 Poseidon
12 NH90
18 A109 Light Helis

2 More frigates
1 More MRV

38 Challenger II Tanks
40 More Javelin MRAAW

jchan77 – here are a couple of questions?

Who is NZ’s closest traditional defence partner?

Do you think it might be a good idea if NZ integrated as much as possible its defence equipment with our closest neighbour, allies and a country 5 times the population and 10 times its defence budget?

If the RAAF flies both the F-18E and F-35 in a few years – how helpful will it really be for both NZ and Aust, for us to show up with a bunch of Typhoons. Who wins other than the British taxpayer? Logistical support instantly duplicated and complicated. Wouldn’t it be better if you said 18 F-18’s or 18 F35 for the RNZAF. That would reveal a deeper level of understanding the issue.

The ARH Tiger? It could plug into the ADF supply chain, yet we would need to bring something to that party. There is a bit more to it than just having to buy them and fly them. Deploying a squadron of combat helicopters like the Tiger into a combat zone is fraught with some very sizable logistical and operational dilemmas. How do you support them and protect them? Remember they are close to the front and not safely back some distance at an airbase like the F-18’s etc.

I have been told that the sticker price in NZ dollars for the P-8 will be around the $330m mark – and we are talking in2009 dollars – not 2020 when the P-3’s will start to show their age.

This article might give you some direction on what may eventuate:
Spy drones on NZ defence wish list - Defence - NZ Herald News

Reading that I get the impression that only 2-3 P8’s may oneday arrive but augmented with 3-4 cheaper RQ-4’s. It wouldn’t surprise me. In fact wont really worry me either.

The A400M? – I have a feeling that in the ASEAN / ANZAC region good old fashioned US equipment that is tried and true like the C-130J or even the C17 is a better bet. I cannot see the Aussies or the Singaporeans whom we work with quite closely go for the A400M – and there is high level talk of a combined ANZAC Airlift organisation. Politics and operational synergies are significant.

12 Hawk jets? Nope! Not going to happen. However there are a number of options which may evolve over the next 12 months that might surprise.

Question – do you seriously think that the NZDF needs a 60 tonne Main Battle Tank? Why 38 of them?

Do you think we will soon return with MBT's to the battlefields of Alamein and Monte Casino with a full Expeditionary Force like in 1942-44?

You don’t have to answer them all here – but just mull them over.

 

[Twickiwi]

Von Tempski rides again

Most of the really interesting answers can only come after (or well after) the publishing of the Def WP, but I can't stop myself from speculating (amateurs are entitled).

Despite the name change the NZ Commandos are to remain solely domestic CT, leaving an expeditionary SOF niches filled solely by the NZSAS. It seems modern security requires greater use of SOF in a greater and greater variety of roles some more "specialised" than others. It seems when NZ's allies want NZ to contribute they are more likely to ask for the NZSAS than anything else (there was a time we would send a Frigate, officially anyway).

Bloggers have stated how difficult it would be to expand the NZSAS, as not only are they very intensively trained, but there are a finite number of applicants with the qualities to become a trooper.

NZ has been prevaricating over a ready reaction force for decades, but the requirement seems ever more acute. The current government seems to be heading in the direction of increasing the size and usefulness of the NZDF. I can't stop myself from wondering whether the government will reinforce the part of the army most asked for by allies to be deployed. While expanding the NZSAS would be difficult, a higher trained ready to be deployed in 24 hours Special Forces (a la Australian Commandos, UK R. Marines, US Rangers) attached to 1 NZSAS Group seems feasible. I don't fully know how many companies would be required to have one coy always available so I'm going to say three. That would double the number of bodies in 1 NZSAS Group, which seems kind of radical thinking about it. It would take the pressure off the NZSAS to cover a lot of contingencies and might become an alternative to offer when NZSAS needs respite and "no" isn't politically beneficial.

jchan77's wishlist seems excessive in the current climate where the whole world is climbing out of a financial hole, however the next half century the Pacific is going to be interesting in the Chinese sense of the word. It is going to be because of China's development that things will get a little crazy. This isn't because of China is aggressive or machievallian. China's demand for raw commodities, and increasingly consumer goods and services will propel an region wide boom that will make the 90s and naughties seem like the Waltons. Governments with surpluses are able to spend more on defence. Neighbours with more defence equipment encourage you to look again at your own spending priorities.

If half the rumours are true China is on the verge of developing expeditionary capability. While China almost certainly wants stability in the China seas, it has shown little or no respect for the "Western", "liberal, democratic" consensus at the UN. I think there will be a priority in SE Asia and the Eastern Pacific not to allow the Chinese fleet a look in, because once they are established they will become new permanent neighbours. This from an American perspective could help to stiffen the commitment to defence of wavering allies.

It seems outlandish now, but the idea of a NZ Armoured Infantry Brigade may seem natural in 20 years time.

 

[jchan77]

RNZAF 2030 (better?)

2030

Combat:

• 24 F/A-18F (Second Hand from the RAAF when they replace it with F-35s)
• 10 Hawk Trainers (Second Hand from the RAAF/RAF)

Training:

• 5 or more Beech King Air B200
• 13 or more CT-4E Air trainers

Maritime Patrol:

• 4 to 6 P-8 Poseidons

Cargo Transport

• 5 C-130J

VIP Transport

• 2 Boeing 757-200

Helicopter Transport:

• 8 or more NH90
• 5 or more A109

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles:

• 3 to 5 UAVs (Global Hawk or MQ-1 Predator)

 

[gf0012-aust]

2030

Combat:

• 24 F/A-18F (Second Hand from the RAAF when they replace it with F-35s)
•

Unfort we can't sell you the Shornets. Under FMS rules they have to be returned (on paper at minimum) to the US. State Dept can then establish an FMS case to sell them back to NZ subject to Congress and the US Executive.

 

[jchan77]

Unfort we can't sell you the Shornets. Under FMS rules they have to be returned (on paper at minimum) to the US. State Dept can then establish an FMS case to sell them back to NZ subject to Congress and the US Executive.

Maybe New Zealand is waiting patiently for a "UAV Fighter Jet"

I'm guessing that future "UAV Fighter Jets" could outmatch a Block III Super Hornet, proposed by Boeing

Boeing Plans Sixth Generation Fighter With Block 3 Super Hornet | AVIATION WEEK

 

[gf0012-aust]

Maybe New Zealand is waiting patiently for a "UAV Fighter Jet"

I'm guessing that future "UAV Fighter Jets" could outmatch a Block III Super Hornet, proposed by Boeing

Boeing Plans Sixth Generation Fighter With Block 3 Super Hornet | AVIATION WEEK

There are a number of technical errors in that article, so I'd be taking a bit of it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Todjaeger]

There are a number of technical errors in that article, so I'd be taking a bit of it with a pinch of salt.

You might want to talk to your doctor then, as I am not certain the amount of salt required is healthy...

2030

Combat:

• 24 F/A-18F (Second Hand from the RAAF when they replace it with F-35s)
• 10 Hawk Trainers (Second Hand from the RAAF/RAF)

Training:

• 5 or more Beech King Air B200
• 13 or more CT-4E Air trainers

Maritime Patrol:

• 4 to 6 P-8 Poseidons

Cargo Transport

• 5 C-130J

VIP Transport

• 2 Boeing 757-200

Helicopter Transport:

• 8 or more NH90
• 5 or more A109

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles:

• 3 to 5 UAVs (Global Hawk or MQ-1 Predator)

To be honest, I do not think this OrBat would be particularly suitable for the NZDF, even in 2030.

For one thing, the 757-200s likely would be up for, if not already past due for replacement. IIRC the line closed several years ago and the ones the RNZAF acquired were purchased on the 2nd hand aircraft market.

IMO, the RNZAF is currently understrength in essentially all areas. The OrBat given for 2030 only really addresses the lack of the ACF, and even then it does not do so all that well IMO. Assuming that the RNZAF is allowed to purchase the ex-RAAF SHornets, then in 2030 it would be using fighters that are ~20 years old and should therefore commence looking for a replacement. OTOH, I do not think that any ex-RAAF Hawk 127 LIFT would be available for the RNZAF, or if they were, that they would be useful. I could be mistaken but I was under the impression that the ADF was getting essentially full use out of them, to the point where there is no additional fast mover training capacity within the ADF. Secondly, I was also under the impression that RAAF Hawk 127s were getting used up and experiencing stress cracks and fatigue already. By the time the RAAF moves onto whatever will be the Hawk 127 replacement, I expect the RAAF Hawks to be completely stuffed.

For the other areas, everything else listed (aside from the 1:1 replacement P-3K Orion with P-8A Poseidon) is either what is already on order, or just a 1:1 replacement of similar capability.

Given where NZ is and how necessary logistical support is, I would like to see additional transports. This could be in the form of greater numbers of types currently set to enter service, or additional types (like the C-27J) to augment what is in service or on order.

Something else which would likely be quite welcome, both for the NZDF but also amongst allies, would be some form of AAR capability. To that end, my preference for the C-130H Hercules replacement would be KC-130J Hercules II. Similarly when the Boeing 757-200s are replaced, it would be better to have their replacements fitted as MRTT, possibly like the RAAF A330 MRTT or whatever the USAF tanker replacement programme finally settles on.

One of the important things which IMO has been overlooked, is not just what a particular force should look like, but why? And then as a follow on to that, how to develop the force towards the designed result.

One of the first things I would advocate for would be a greater sensor footprint around NZ. With that in place, NZ could then make more efficient use of NZDF assets to respond when needed.

Another thing I would advocate for would be, in concert with other FPDA nations, the re-establishment of a fast jet training squadron. I would model on the NATO Flying School in Canada, but instead have 'client' nations be drawn from FPDA/ASEAN. AFAIK NZ has some fairly open airspace, the same cannot be said for all nations in ASEAN (Singapore comes to mind) and having such a setup can potentially help all parties through economy of scale as well as potential space and facilities available. As adjuncts to this, I would recommend that the fast jet trainer be a dual-use design with a secondary attack/air defence role, like the TA-50 Golden Eagle, or if some version of Hawk comes out merging the capabilities of Hawk 100 & 200-series aircraft. Also, it would make more sense IMO for NZ to allow Singapore to operate some of the RSAF from NZ, IIRC there is a unit of RSAF TA-4 Skyhawks currently based in France. They could likely be based in NZ just as easily and perhaps even less expensively...

Something to consider at least.

-Cheers

 

[jchan77]

Found this page from Twitter

Defence Plan Approx $14bil with DS increase from 1%GDP to 2-2.5% 490 days ago

The New Zealand Defence Force will be able to defend New Zealand from any threat including a foreign nation. Our strategic geographical location provides NZ with a huge military advantage. Only a carrier based fleet would be a threat. Therefore New Zealands combat forces will be focused around defence against a carrier fleet from the north. This may seem a little to far, but China has already said that they have an interest in the Pacific, Asian militaries are growing, and therefore NZ will prepare for anything. Our forces will be primarily equipt for NZ defence and to assist our allies.

Defence in General:

- To protect our nation
- To protect our allies
- To show our power and pride
- To guarentee a safe, secure nation.

A new air force base will be built in Auckland to base combat squadrens, a new navy base will be built in Wellington to base half the fleet and a new army base will be built in the north of NZ.

Equipment Levels/Projects (Please note this is projected for next generation eg. for the government in power in 20 years time) :




Army: (Costs ~$3billion today's currency)


Armour:

38 Main Battle Tanks (Probably British due to the same geography of our two nations)
50 Wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicles (Similar to current NZLAV)
50 Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicles ( Probably British, similar to Warrior, due to the price and multi-role)
300 Infantry mobility vehicles ( Humvee similar - Can take a large range of weapons, are cheap and versatile)


Indirect Fire:

24 105mm Guns
6 155mm Guns
6 Self-propelled guns
50 81mm mortars


Fire Support:

60 Medium Range Anti Armour Weapons (Javelin or similar)
~ 300 Light anti-armour weapons

Anti-Air:

24 Short-range (15km) Systems (Crotale or similar)

Other:
Associated support vehicles, etc




Navy: (Cost: ~$4-4.5bil [not including options])



4 Modern Frigates (German design or FREMM - Used for naval blockade and escort)
2 Multi-Role Vessels (Current design, but larger and uparmed.)
2 Fleet Tankers/Replenish
4 Offshore Patrol Vessels (Used for patrol of Ross Sea and Pacific ocean)
8 Inshore patrol vessels (2 to be based in each region for patrol)
12 Naval Helicopters (NH90 due to long range)

If finances are avaliable in 3-5 years, a submarine capability will be established.



Air Force:


Combat : ( ~$6bil [not including options])

36 Modern Western Fighter Aircraft ( F-35 or Eurofighter)
18 Light strike/training jets (BAE Hawk)
6 Armed Attack Helicopters (Tiger ARH)


Maritime Patrol:

6 Maritime strike aircraft (P-8 Poseidon - long range and payload)


Fixed-wing Transport:

8 eavy transportation aircraft (8 A400Ms)


Rotary Transport:

12 Medium sized helicopters (NH90 - Great for heavy lift)
16 light helicopters (A109 - Cheap and versatile)


Light Aircraft:

12 Turbo prop with light strike capability (Brazilian Super Tucano - Perfect for light strike and surveillance. The Brazilians currently use them to patrol the vast Amazon)


Unmanned Aerial Vehicles:

6 remote controlled reconnaissance UAVs (MQ-1 Predator - Armed with AGM-114 Hellfire missiles and in use since 1995, has seen combat over Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, and Yemen.)




Basically, the army is using the same type of equipment, but more of it, with some teeth added like tanks, 155mm's, etc. The Navy is operating the same vessel types, just more in order to be able to provide a naval blockade.

Now the air force is the force that will be the biggest change. To re-establish the combat capability, an order of the light/training jets will be placed and negotiations with Britian will take place. While this is happening, a base will be constructed in Auckland. A British commander will be recruited to be the Chief of air force and will be the base commander at Auckland, as currently no one in New Zealand is capable of this. Negotitions for training by British pilots will be undertaken, and 36 new pilots will be sent Britian with their new commander to train. Once trained, they will come back and the 36 fighters will be purchased.

By spending ~$13 billion over 3-5 years, we will be a very powerful force, and due to our location, will successfully be able to defend our nation, and have pride in our armed forces, letting them be the representatives of our nation.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Defence Plan Approx $14bil with DS increase from 1%GDP to 2-2.5% 490 days ago

I am not sure where you pulled this from but whoever has written it is fundamentally clueless about the cost of procurement, raising forces, training forces and sustaining forces.

This is very muck akin to the RNZAF wish list on another thread - it's tantamount to rubbish.

I suggest that you either abandon these kinds of posts, or at least make the effort to establish costs based on proper models,

as it is it, this list wreaks of some fantasy wish list...

 

[Cadredave]

Defence Plan Approx $14bil with DS increase from 1%GDP to 2-2.5% 490 days ago

The New Zealand Defence Force will be able to defend New Zealand from any threat including a foreign nation. Our strategic geographical location provides NZ with a huge military advantage. Only a carrier based fleet would be a threat. Therefore New Zealands combat forces will be focused around defence against a carrier fleet from the north. This may seem a little to far, but China has already said that they have an interest in the Pacific, Asian militaries are growing, and therefore NZ will prepare for anything. Our forces will be primarily equipt for NZ defence and to assist our allies.

Defence in General:

- To protect our nation
- To protect our allies
- To show our power and pride
- To guarentee a safe, secure nation.

A new air force base will be built in Auckland to base combat squadrens, a new navy base will be built in Wellington to base half the fleet and a new army base will be built in the north of NZ.

Equipment Levels/Projects (Please note this is projected for next generation eg. for the government in power in 20 years time) :




Army: (Costs ~$3billion today's currency)


Armour:

38 Main Battle Tanks (Probably British due to the same geography of our two nations)
50 Wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicles (Similar to current NZLAV)
50 Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicles ( Probably British, similar to Warrior, due to the price and multi-role)
300 Infantry mobility vehicles ( Humvee similar - Can take a large range of weapons, are cheap and versatile)


Indirect Fire:

24 105mm Guns
6 155mm Guns
6 Self-propelled guns
50 81mm mortars


Fire Support:

60 Medium Range Anti Armour Weapons (Javelin or similar)
~ 300 Light anti-armour weapons

Anti-Air:

24 Short-range (15km) Systems (Crotale or similar)

Other:
Associated support vehicles, etc




Navy: (Cost: ~$4-4.5bil [not including options])



4 Modern Frigates (German design or FREMM - Used for naval blockade and escort)
2 Multi-Role Vessels (Current design, but larger and uparmed.)
2 Fleet Tankers/Replenish
4 Offshore Patrol Vessels (Used for patrol of Ross Sea and Pacific ocean)
8 Inshore patrol vessels (2 to be based in each region for patrol)
12 Naval Helicopters (NH90 due to long range)

If finances are avaliable in 3-5 years, a submarine capability will be established.



Air Force:


Combat : ( ~$6bil [not including options])

36 Modern Western Fighter Aircraft ( F-35 or Eurofighter)
18 Light strike/training jets (BAE Hawk)
6 Armed Attack Helicopters (Tiger ARH)


Maritime Patrol:

6 Maritime strike aircraft (P-8 Poseidon - long range and payload)


Fixed-wing Transport:

8 eavy transportation aircraft (8 A400Ms)


Rotary Transport:

12 Medium sized helicopters (NH90 - Great for heavy lift)
16 light helicopters (A109 - Cheap and versatile)


Light Aircraft:

12 Turbo prop with light strike capability (Brazilian Super Tucano - Perfect for light strike and surveillance. The Brazilians currently use them to patrol the vast Amazon)


Unmanned Aerial Vehicles:

6 remote controlled reconnaissance UAVs (MQ-1 Predator - Armed with AGM-114 Hellfire missiles and in use since 1995, has seen combat over Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, and Yemen.)




Basically, the army is using the same type of equipment, but more of it, with some teeth added like tanks, 155mm's, etc. The Navy is operating the same vessel types, just more in order to be able to provide a naval blockade.

Now the air force is the force that will be the biggest change. To re-establish the combat capability, an order of the light/training jets will be placed and negotiations with Britian will take place. While this is happening, a base will be constructed in Auckland. A British commander will be recruited to be the Chief of air force and will be the base commander at Auckland, as currently no one in New Zealand is capable of this. Negotitions for training by British pilots will be undertaken, and 36 new pilots will be sent Britian with their new commander to train. Once trained, they will come back and the 36 fighters will be purchased.

By spending ~$13 billion over 3-5 years, we will be a very powerful force, and due to our location, will successfully be able to defend our nation, and have pride in our armed forces, letting them be the representatives of our nation.

mate your in fantasy land if you think this is going to happen I suggest that you at least give your own thoughts instead of producing something like this. The NZDF like all Govt departments are cutting back on expenditure period if you think that the govt is going to spend 13 Billion over 3-5 years and yet are struggling to find 1 Billion for transmission Gully to Wellington & have delayed this project for 10 plus years......

Please dont waste our time

 

[StingrayOZ]

The list is pretty crazy.

Australia has 60 M1A1 tanks. Why would NZ need 38? 8 400M?s 36 F-35?'s?? NZ is never going to spend those kind of dollars, even in all out war, certainly not in that mix. NZ just isn't that kind of nation. This smells of some european wishlist. NZ aint in europe with EU money backing it.

The navy seems the most reasonable, perhaps chop the numbers in half to make it realistically optimisitic.

NZ has to make a decision, does it want to be an independant force that is irrelevant (low level policing, low level conflict participation) or does it want to more closely intergrate with the ADF and maintain front line force in conjunction with Australia.

It can have a lot of say in how it does both of those things. But NZ isn't going to be some magically independant force of power.

 

[MrConservative]

Dear jchan,

How about rather than posting nonsense from some kiddies Action Man website or twitter - how about read what us oldies who know a thing ot two have to say here and go and post sensible stuff on their websites. Either that or Foxtrot Oscar.

 

[jchan77]

2 questions

Sorry,

2 Questions I've been asked before...

1. Should we re-introduce the Macchi's or let them go to TAS?

and...

2. Does the RNZAF SERIOUSLY need an combat air force to defend itself after 9/11?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, shortly after disbanding the air combat wing, Helen Clark was faced with a problem. There was an election in 2005, and a lone plane was circling Aucklands skys, it was thought the pilot intended to crash the aircraft into a city target, the more prominent buildings were cleared of people, some of us hoped he would target Helens home, not the Sky Tower or Harbour bridge. The nearest combat aircraft was across the Tasman in Australia, and would take several hours to reach NZ. How embarrassing, "excuse me, could we borrow one of your fighters, we don't have one of our own" Luckily the pilot decided to crash into the harbour. But it was quickly forgotten. Lessons not learnt have a tendency to bite ones arse later.

 

[jchan77]

Sorry guys, I'll stop

Mod edit:

It's not an issue of you participating. Its an issue of how you have been participating.

I have stated my reasons earlier so they do not need to be repeated. By all means join in and contribute, but I seriously suggest that you read some of the old posts, establish the tenor and flavor of the more established members to get a feel for how things can be done, and then re-enter the forums.

You are more than welcome, but you need to do some research first and you definitely need to stop just posting wish lists that are without initial comment from you, and which are clearly not grounded in reality.