F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[jack412]

gf, wouldnt a sale of parts to the us that are then built into the plane or on-sold to japan match their laws ?

do you know if the contracts as they stand, are they just for the partner nations planes or are they for all f-35 built within the contract period
would their need to be a japanese sub-contract from the already contracted suppliers

 

[Todjaeger]

gf, wouldnt a sale of parts to the us that are then built into the plane or on-sold to japan match their laws ?

do you know if the contracts as they stand, are they just for the partner nations planes or are they for all f-35 built within the contract period
would their need to be a japanese sub-contract from the already contracted suppliers

My understanding (GF and others please feel to correct me...) is that some parts/component/subassembly manufacture contracts are fleetwide, other contracts only relate to certain parts/component/subassembly construction for some builds.

An example of the first would be something like the following; if Australia has the fleetwide contract to manufacture the F-25A tailfin, then all tailfins used on the F-35A Lightning II will be made in Australia*. Please note that I do not recall exactly which components Australia has the fleet contracts for, I only chose the tailfin because I do recall that Australia does make some Boeing tailfins.

An example of the second would be an item which is not already covered by a fleet contract. Again using a randomly chosen item, if no one has the fleet contract for the landing gear assemblies then Japan could choose to specify that any JSF it orders be built using landing gear assembled in Japan.

To my knowledge, the fleet contracts cover all F-35s that get ordered, regardless of whether the order is from a partner nation or not. The only possible caveat with that is if the F-35 production lines were to complete their respective builds and then close, and then new orders were placed to re-open the lines... Depending on how the contracts are written, there might be additional leeway in terms of who can build what if the production lines need to be re-opened.

-Cheers

 

[swerve]

gf, wouldnt a sale of parts to the us that are then built into the plane or on-sold to japan match their laws ?

As I regularly point out, on every forum I'm a member of, Japan has no laws prohibiting the export of weapons. It has a policy. The law requires licences for all arms exports. The policy is that licences will not be issued.

There is a specific exemption for items jointly developed with the USA, which permits Japanese technology to be transferred, & components to be shipped, to the USA & incorporated into weapons which are then sold to Japan, under a blanket licence. At present, I think that exemption does not permit the export by the USA of any weapon containing Japanese made parts to any country other than Japan.

The policy was amended recently to allow similar exemptions for other countries which Japan may buy weapons from, but wants to fit Japanese equipment to.

 

[moahunter]

Canada chooses F-35

Good news for the program, 65 to be aquired, long term cost (including maintenance) expected to be C$16 billion:

Ottawa to spend $16-billion on fighter jets - The Globe and Mail

 

[moahunter]

Seems the F35B is struggling, there is some suggestion that the Marine and Royal Navy variant could be scrapped to cut costs:

Marines’ Stealth Jet Struggling to Lift Off | Danger Room | Wired.com


Also:

Stevens said the component “failure rates are higher than predicted” and that Lockheed and the military test managers are working to understand why failures are occurring and how to improve their design and manufacture. Failing components are cooling fans that hold down fuel temperatures, lift fan doors actuators and other switches. Stevens said there have been no failures of key components of the STOVL propulsion systems, the engine or the lift fan system.

The lagging pace of test flights puts more pressure on a program already in the spotlight and facing an aggressive flight testing pace over the next few years to begin to compensate for the already years-long delays in development and soaring cost estimates.

By contrast, testing of the two other models is going well. The two F-35A aircraft being flown at Edwards Air Force Base in California and the one F-35C model, being flown at Fort Worth still, are both completing flights well ahead of plan.

Read more: http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_talk/2010/07/stovl-f35-not-flying-so-often.html#ixzz0vCK6iBt3

 

[aussienscale]

Seems the F35B is struggling, there is some suggestion that the Marine and Royal Navy variant could be scrapped to cut costs:

Marines’ Stealth Jet Struggling to Lift Off | Danger Room | Wired.com


Also:



Read more: Sky Talk: STOVL F-35 not flying so often

I would not hold too much to a Journo's story on scrapping the B model, it wont happen. A budget blowout in the program is nothing compared to the money invested by the US and UK in what will be operating the B models. Problems ? Yes, scraping the program ? NO

 

[moahunter]

A budget blowout in the program is nothing compared to the money invested by the US and UK in what will be operating the B models.

The money invested though is a sunk cost. I agree that "pride" may result in the program continuing, but to the extent these variants are significantly more expensive per plane (which will likely be the case given these problems), does it really make sense to acquire them? Is the capability really that important? We know for example that the Royal Navy is considering the option of CATOBAR for the QEII class, it might make sense to scrap the B, so more models of A and C can be built for the same money.

 

[Grand Danois]

Some quick commentary on the accuracy of [airborne] optical sensors may be in order in relation to the 800 miles detection of a rocket launch by DAS.

Northrop Grumman - Photo Gallery

How much can be deduced by having a look at publicly available, commercial systems and a brief look at the curiosae of history?

Take your high commercial, high-end, full-frame DSLR camera, i.e. 20+ Mpix, like this one:

News - Nikon D3X 24.5MP full frame pro DSLR officially unveiled today - Digital Photography Now

It would have c. 6000 pixels along the 36 mm side of the image or c. 6 micron in the focal plane (model coordinates) which translates to a pixel size of c. 427 m in object coordinates, when using a lens with a 90 degree field-of-view like DAS does.

AFRL/RX Tech Milestones - Manufacturing Technology Program Helps Reduce Cost of Focal Plane Arrays

However, the lens of such a camera is pure crap. It would typically feature symmetric distortions in the order of tens of microns to hundreds of microns near the edges. This problem was solved by Brown in the 50's.

[ame="http://www.scribd.com/doc/16556123/History"]History - download free pdf[/ame]

He developed the bundle adjustment as a rigorous solution using stars for obtaining both the exterior and interior parameters . He developed this employing embryonic computers at the White Sands Missile Range tracking... ballistic missile launches. Incidentally this method was kept secret until the 60's from an outside world trying to solve the same problems using mechanical methods. But they didn't have the computers at hand, though.

Anyhow, calibrating the commercial camera using this (or a similar) method will yield you an accuracy better than 9 micron at 99.6 % confidence. In short: Had it been the Nikon recording the rocket from 800 miles, it would have done so with an accuracy of (1½ pixel) 450M*9/6 = 640 m @ 99.6 confidence relative to the camera.

The DAS features a much larger focal plane/chip and more pixels.

In fact today's best lenses feature distortions similar to above before calibration..

http://www.admap.com/CAMERA-CALIBRATION.pdf

The largest error component on the angular accuracy may not be from the sensor but from the NAV system of the platform.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Only 32 fighter jets for 2011.

The Senate Appropriations panel on Thursday approved a fiscal 2011 Pentagon spending bill that significantly cuts the funding for the production of the new F-35 jets. The Senate appropriators decided to fund only 32 of the 42 jets requested by the Pentagon.

Senate appropriators call the Pentagon's F-35 jet fighter program 'disturbing' - TheHill.com

 

[Sea Toby]

The Senate Appropriations panel on Thursday approved a fiscal 2011 Pentagon spending bill that significantly cuts the funding for the production of the new F-35 jets. The Senate appropriators decided to fund only 32 of the 42 jets requested by the Pentagon.

Senate appropriators call the Pentagon's F-35 jet fighter program 'disturbing' - TheHill.com

This isn't even first base yet, as we still have to wait for a floor Senate vote and a floor House vote... In the big scheme of things with appropriations committees we are still in the batters box batting... ITS WHY I DON'T COMMENT UNTIL A BILL HAS PASSED THE JOINT BUDGET CONFERENCE BEFORE THE FINAL VOTE OF BOTH HOUSES...

I have seen many defense items not pass make it through conference and many defense items pass through both house's floors and not make it through conference...

With baseball terms: first base is house floor, second base is senate floor, third base is joint budget conference, and home is when both houses pass the final bill...

The Congress can still vote for 42 and then again vote for 0 with the final bill... Furthermore, the president can veto the bill... Its really not over until the president signs the bill...

Chances are even if the F-35 is cut by ten during this bad economic year there could be an increase of 10 during a good year in the future...

 

[F-15 Eagle]

This isn't even first base yet, as we still have to wait for a floor Senate vote and a floor House vote... In the big scheme of things with appropriations committees we are still in the batters box batting... ITS WHY I DON'T COMMENT UNTIL A BILL HAS PASSED THE JOINT BUDGET CONFERENCE BEFORE THE FINAL VOTE OF BOTH HOUSES...

I have seen many defense items not pass make it through conference and many defense items pass through both house's floors and not make it through conference...

With baseball terms: first base is house floor, second base is senate floor, third base is joint budget conference, and home is when both houses pass the final bill...

The Congress can still vote for 42 and then again vote for 0 with the final bill... Furthermore, the president can veto the bill... Its really not over until the president signs the bill...

Chances are even if the F-35 is cut by ten during this bad economic year there could be an increase of 10 during a good year in the future...

I actually agree with you on everything. I was actually thinking of the same thing. My guess is that the pentagon will add the 10 aircraft back and they will still buy 42 jets in 2011.

 

[Sea Toby]

Last year it looked like the Coast Guard was going to get another new Mackinaw class icebreaker... Both houses passed the bill with the stimulus package, unfortunately, it died in conference... To please the Congressmen and Senators the Coast Guard relocated one of their icebreaking tugs to Lake Erie after the lake iced up the year before.... RATS! Not so easy to come, all so easy to go...

 

[F-15 Eagle]

The Pentagon said on Wednesday it reached a "fixed-price" agreement with Lockheed Martin Corp for a fourth batch of F-35 fighter jets, wrapping up months of negotiations about the U.S. military's biggest weapons program.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the deal, concluded Tuesday, included 30 fighter jets for the United States, one for Britain and an option for one more for the Netherlands.


UPDATE 2-Pentagon signs F-35 fighter contract with Lockheed | Reuters

 

[Sea Toby]

The Pentagon said on Wednesday it reached a "fixed-price" agreement with Lockheed Martin Corp for a fourth batch of F-35 fighter jets, wrapping up months of negotiations about the U.S. military's biggest weapons program.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the deal, concluded Tuesday, included 30 fighter jets for the United States, one for Britain and an option for one more for the Netherlands.


UPDATE 2-Pentagon signs F-35 fighter contract with Lockheed | Reuters

Earlier this year some media reports suggested the cost estimate for the F-35s this year would be up to $138 million each, but this deal brought them in for the 32 aircraft at $92 million each...

The US cost estimate of $92 million include the development costs for these planes, although not the support and operational costs, or what the Aussies consider through life costs...

All of this year's order is a fixed price contract, not cost plus. Two years earlier than planned...

So much for speculation...

The US also bought Israel 20 aircraft at a cost estimate of $96 million each, over 60 production aircraft have been ordered... 52 this year alone...

Lockheed is still working at reducing the price even more... With larger orders the price should drop some more. And this year's US order was reduced by 10...

 

[aussienscale]

Earlier this year some media reports suggested the cost estimate for the F-35s this year would be up to $138 million each, but this deal brought them in for the 32 aircraft at $92 million each...

The US cost estimate of $92 million include the development costs for these planes, although not the support and operational costs, or what the Aussies consider through life costs...

All of this year's order is a fixed price contract, not cost plus. Two years earlier than planned...

So much for speculation...

The US also bought Israel 20 aircraft at a cost estimate of $96 million each, over 60 production aircraft have been ordered... 52 this year alone...

Lockheed is still working at reducing the price even more... With larger orders the price should drop some more. And this year's US order was reduced by 10...

The "Fly by Wire" Armchair journo's and our friends at Airpower Australia won't have too much to say about this, good to see it happening and sticking it to the doubters. Will be interesting how much the RAAF end up paying a unit by the time our frames are getting built ? I noticed in the order that there were a couple for the RAF and Netherlands, would Australia maybe get a couple of airframes to start the transition, evaluate and otherwise start the ball rolling ? or are we better off letting the bigger boy's do all of this and reap the benefits at a latter stage ?
Still cant wait to see these baby's in the sky

 

[gf0012-aust]

would Australia maybe get a couple of airframes to start the transition, evaluate and otherwise start the ball rolling ?

there are RAAF and DSTO people already embedded into the LM facilities and test programs. eg australian and norway have been doing weapons development together as well as some of the ewarfare developments. Aust has taken the lead on some of the these....

so much for the frantic cries about not being able to develop our own solutions due to source code concerns....

 

[Aussie Digger]

The "Fly by Wire" Armchair journo's and our friends at Airpower Australia won't have too much to say about this, good to see it happening and sticking it to the doubters. Will be interesting how much the RAAF end up paying a unit by the time our frames are getting built ? I noticed in the order that there were a couple for the RAF and Netherlands, would Australia maybe get a couple of airframes to start the transition, evaluate and otherwise start the ball rolling ? or are we better off letting the bigger boy's do all of this and reap the benefits at a latter stage ?
Still cant wait to see these baby's in the sky

RAAF's first aircraft are scheduled to come from the LRIP 6 production run.

Initial contract activity began in January 2010 and the contract notice for long lead items for LRIP 6 was posted on 15 September 2010, so RAAF's first F-35 jets will commence production pretty soon...

 

[aussienscale]

RAAF's first aircraft are scheduled to come from the LRIP 6 production run.

Initial contract activity began in January 2010 and the contract notice for long lead items for LRIP 6 was posted on 15 September 2010, so RAAF's first F-35 jets will commence production pretty soon...

Gr8 info, thanks. It will be interesting to follow the progress, looks like our first batch will be at a pretty reasonable price then ? How many are we expecting in this first run ? also has anyone heard of the magic 100 ? or are we still talking 75 at this stage. IIRC they will be at Williamtown ? when may we expect some up Amberley way, will be nice to see some overhead on their way to and from Evans Head (Just down the road)

Thanks

 

[gf0012-aust]

also has anyone heard of the magic 100 ? or are we still talking 75 at this stage.

That decision won't come up until circa 2018-2023

 

[Aussie Digger]

Gr8 info, thanks. It will be interesting to follow the progress, looks like our first batch will be at a pretty reasonable price then ? How many are we expecting in this first run ? also has anyone heard of the magic 100 ? or are we still talking 75 at this stage. IIRC they will be at Williamtown ? when may we expect some up Amberley way, will be nice to see some overhead on their way to and from Evans Head (Just down the road)

Thanks

We are acquiring an initial 14x aircraft for testing, development and training activities and a follow-on 58x aircraft to fill out our operational squadrons. Another batch (ie squadron's worth) would take us to that 'up to 100' number. In reality what Australia is buying is 4x operational squadrons, an operational conversion unit, plus some attrition and test and development airframes... It won't necessarily be 100 aircraft, but somewhere close to fit these requirements...

I've heard 8 our our initial 14x aircraft will come from LRIP 6, but I can't substantiate that with a link or any credible source, so take it as a maybe...

Israel who are substantially modifying their jets and clearing additional stores, are getting their F-35's at $96m a pop, so with less additional development and perhaps the 'standard' Block III cleared stores list, you'd imagine that our jets would be a bit cheaper, but the price of the individual jet isn't that important. The overall package is and it will be interesting to see what the packages cost, moreso than individual aircraft cost, IMHO...