Royal New Zealand Air Force

bruceedwards

New Member
This news is a few days old, but for those who have missed it:

Scoop: Air Force Boeing Completes Antarctica Trial Flight

The new kit on the 757-200's apparently means they can safely land/take off from McMurdo. No doubt this will remove some of the pressure on the C-130's.

Does anyone out there know how far through the upgrade cycle the old C-130's are? I can't find any literature online confirming what has (and has not) been completed.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
This news is a few days old, but for those who have missed it:

Scoop: Air Force Boeing Completes Antarctica Trial Flight

The new kit on the 757-200's apparently means they can safely land/take off from McMurdo. No doubt this will remove some of the pressure on the C-130's.

Does anyone out there know how far through the upgrade cycle the old C-130's are? I can't find any literature online confirming what has (and has not) been completed.
There are still a few software issues to iron out. The first C-130 - the original prototype for the upgrade sent Statesides in 2005 is back at WB - however not completed and SAFE are working through other parts of the upgrade until that is sorted. The second aircraft sent is now the prototype. Panic has not set in ... yet.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Air Force:


Combat : ( ~$6bil [not including options])

36 Modern Western Fighter Aircraft ( F-35 or Eurofighter)
18 Light strike/training jets (BAE Hawk)
6 Armed Attack Helicopters (Tiger ARH)


Maritime Patrol:

6 Maritime strike aircraft (P-8 Poseidon - long range and payload)


Fixed-wing Transport:

8 eavy transportation aircraft (8 A400Ms)


Rotary Transport:

12 Medium sized helicopters (NH90 - Great for heavy lift)
16 light helicopters (A109 - Cheap and versatile)


Light Aircraft:

12 Turbo prop with light strike capability (Brazilian Super Tucano - Perfect for light strike and surveillance. The Brazilians currently use them to patrol the vast Amazon)


Unmanned Aerial Vehicles:

6 remote controlled reconnaissance UAVs (MQ-1 Predator - Armed with AGM-114 Hellfire missiles and in use since 1995, has seen combat over Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, and Yemen.)


The air force is the force that will be the biggest change. To re-establish the combat capability, an order of the light/training jets will be placed and negotiations with Britian will take place. While this is happening, a base will be constructed in Auckland. A British commander will be recruited to be the Chief of air force and will be the base commander at Auckland, as currently no one in New Zealand is capable of this. Negotitions for training by British pilots will be undertaken, and 36 new pilots will be sent Britian with their new commander to train. Once trained, they will come back and the 36 fighters will be purchased.
I would estimate New Zealand would have to quadruple its defense budget to buy this Christmas wish list more suitable for a nation of twelve million instead of a nation of only four million people. New Zealand isn't Australia, or even half of Australia when it comes to taxpayers.

If New Zealand wished to bring back its air combat force, New Zealand will find it difficult to have eighteen F/T-50s.... or nine new modern F-16s. Unfortunately, New Zealand can not even afford this at their current defense spending levels.

Aim much, much lower. New Zealand will be lucky to replace their 6 Orions and 5 Hercules aircraft with newer models plane per plane. New Zealand will be lucky to replace their training aircraft with a like number of PC-9s....

Most likely New Zealand will have to settle for fewer number of aircraft to replace the Orions, say in the neighborhood of three. Hopefully New Zealand will be able to afford five new Hercules aircraft, but I expect fewer. Not more, but less...

I do believe New Zealand could increase its defense budget some, at most 50 percent. With that funding increase I can see New Zealand buying five Poseidions and five Hercules. Zip though with T/F-50s. Maybe 18 T/F-50s if New Zealand increased their budget 75 percent...

I AM NOT HOLDING MY BREATHE!
 

bruceedwards

New Member
There are still a few software issues to iron out. The first C-130 - the original prototype for the upgrade sent Statesides in 2005 is back at WB - however not completed and SAFE are working through other parts of the upgrade until that is sorted. The second aircraft sent is now the prototype. Panic has not set in ... yet.
I have to say I'm a little surprised that they are having difficulties - I thought if any aircraft would have a smooth upgrade cycle, it would be the grand old Herc.

Could it be the sheer age of the old birds contributing to the difficulties - or is it that this is a once-off, NZ-only upgrade?

Given the time and difficulty to upgrade the C-130's, and the ongoing maintenance costs, I wonder how the purchase of some brand new C-130's would stack up in comparison. Or would the maint costs for a brand new C-130 be comparable to one of our old birds?

Given the life these upgrades have been advertised as providing (10ish years from memory) and the cache these aircraft provide in allowing our government to fly the flag both in support of our allies and in humanitarian missions, I'm surprised this hasn't raised mention.
 

south

Well-Known Member
I honestly can't see why NZ needs an air combat force? When was the last time that the Kiwi's actually deployed fighters or bombers in an operational role?

Can someone please post a valid reason as to why the kiwi's should have fighter aircraft?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I honestly can't see why NZ needs an air combat force? When was the last time that the Kiwi's actually deployed fighters or bombers in an operational role?

Can someone please post a valid reason as to why the kiwi's should have fighter aircraft?
Does NZ actually need an air combat force? At present, and for the last 8 years or so, apparently the answer has been, "No." Prior to this though, NZ has needed one, for operations during WWI, WWII, Korea (I believe the RNZAF conducted combat ops) and during the Cold War. And while the political/diplomatic climate of the last decade has not required an ACF, there is indeed no guarantee that the present conditions will continue to exist. In point of fact, due to political, social and economic instabilities within the major powers, I would contend that the present, comparatively benign conditions, will cease to be so benign at some point within the next decade, give or take a few years. It is when conditions are not so nice and benign that an ACF might be needed.

As for answering the question of when the NZ last had an operational deployment of fighters and/or bombers, I have to ask what do you mean by that? Are you talking about the last time that the RNZAF actually conducted strike missions upon targets, or do you mean when was that last time that the RNZAF deployed for something which might have resulted in combat operations?

For the first, I believe that the RNZAF last had a combat deployment during Korea, but I could be mistaken. Having not looked back through the RNZAF history recently, the last combat mission undertaken by the RNZAF might have been as far back as WWII, or as recent as Vietnam.

As for the second, I believe the most recent time when the RNZAF ACF had the potential for a combat deployment was in 1999, when East Timor/Timor Leste was regaining its independence from Indonesia. While there was (fortunately) no significant action by Indonesia against the UN personnel, the potential definately was there, and if there had been it would have fallen to the ADF to provide force protection and/or interdiction. A Kiwi contribution of the ACF in such a situation would have IMO been very likely as well as welcome and effective, particularly since the ACF at the time was very competent and well-regarded.

One possible reason why there was no significant resistance upon Indonesia's part during this time was that Indonesia did not to engage the ADF and NZDF due to the type, quality and quantity of forces that Australia and New Zealand could potentially have used in engagements. In effect, even though the RAAF and RNZAF did not have combat deployments, their combat potential still could have (and may very well have) an effect on military, diplomatic or political situations.

With NZ having given up the ACF, the RNZAF (and thus the NZDF and Government) no longer has it available as a tool for power projection. Additionally, the NZDF also no longer has the additional benefits that an ACF provides in terms of training for the RNZN and Army, both operating with friendly and against hostile aircraft. On a final note, while the it was not the ACF's focus, with the A-4 Skyhawks having been retired, NZ air defence is now provided by Mistral manpack SAMs in Army, and RNZN Sea Sparrow SAMs, Phalanx CIWS and the 5"/127mm cannon. Following the devastating examples in the effectiveness of using hijacked commercial airliners as guided missiles demonstrated on September 11th, 2001, it would seem prudent to me for a nation to maintain at least a minimal capability to intercept and interdict potentially hostile aircraft. Particularly if the nation in question is going to be hosting an international venue like the 2011 Rugby World Cup...

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I honestly can't see why NZ needs an air combat force? When was the last time that the Kiwi's actually deployed fighters or bombers in an operational role?

Can someone please post a valid reason as to why the kiwi's should have fighter aircraft?
14th Squadron Canberra's deployed alongside 1 RNZIR in 65-66 into Borneo so as to provide close air support and interdiction. 14th sqd also deployed a few years earlier in Malaya with Venoms again in the same role. 75th Squadron A-4's were on standby during Interfet. Again they were ready to do the traditional roles of CAS, Interdiction and A/Shp. That rouge elements within TNI knew they could be thrown into the mix added to the deterence factor that they helped to provide. You know the old maxim "The adversaries knowlege of your capability means he will think twice." Military orthodoxy is that if we are to send a Battalion Group into harms way at Chp VII then we need to provide CAS & Interdiction for that Battalion Group. New Zealand lacks an air combat component because of political matters being placed ahead of military orthodoxy. Basically ignorance overuling pragmatism.

Now I am waiting for the - "but thats over 40 years ago" reply. Well should we also take away Arty in the fire support role because it has also been over 40 years since 161 Battery was in Nam on that rationale? When was the last time a round from a Frigate was fired during combat - I think 1951 in Korea. Should we lose them as well? Should we also never have ASW capability because as that great Kiwi military thinker Helen Clark told us we live in an incredibly benign strategic environment. Thanks Helen, thanks for the "sustainable defence for that meets New Zealands needs".
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
^@Todjaeger and MrConservative, +1 to the excellent posts.

BTW, Indonesian National Police Chief Bambang Hendarso Danuri announced on 17 September 2009 that Noordin was killed in a police raid along with three other terrorists. Police hunting for suspects in bombings of July, 2009 tracked the seven suspects to Solo in Central Java and besieged a village house on the outskirts overnight. The raid ended near daybreak when an explosion was detonated inside the home. Four suspected militants were killed and three were captured. Following from that raid, Noordin Top's laptop revealed that the group had planned a 9-11 aviation attack which included the recruitment of a former Garuda staff, Mohamad Syahrir, into Noordin Top's organisation (click here for more details provided by RSIS). It is little wonder that for the duration of the recent APEC summit in Singapore, there was always a pair of orbiting interceptors on air sovereignty patrols. This latest development would have important security implications for regional civil aviation.

@south, I'm just wondering what NZ will do during the 2011 Rugby World Cup, if an aircraft deviated from it's flight plans while it is in NZ airspace. Further, let me remind you that in the 1990s terrorists had a demonstrated ability to penetrate airport security in Southeast Asia and that on 26 March 1991, four Pakistani terrorists, claiming to be members of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP), hijacked SQ 117 from Subang Airport in Kuala Lumpur with 129 passengers and crew.

I just want to add that on 22 January 2008, Singapore engaged in a 50-minute long total lockdown of Singapore's airspace to commercial planes due to an intrusion of a Cessna 208 Caravan float plane into Singapore airspace. The Australian pilot, Mr Henry Thomas (was eventually fined S$5,000) and passenger on the Cessna 208 are alive today because our air defence network did not have initiate a shoot down of the Cessna 208. This was because we had interceptors to authenticate the intentions of the UFO in accordance to the following procedures:

(i) The Cessna 208 in question apparently had taken off from Koh Samui, Thailand without a flight plan or the flight plan was not transmitted to Singapore. When it appeared on Singapore air traffic radar entering into Singapore air control region, the air traffic controller was not aware of its flight plan, intention or destination. The Joint Air traffic control center failed to contact the aircraft on radio as well, hence initiated a chain of actions that led to the scrambling of the F16Ds on standby (who happened to be from 145 squadron) to visually identify the UFO. In such instances, we should assume that the UFO's intention is hostile until proven otherwise.

(ii) All licensed pilots are trained and required to be familiar with what they should do in the event of partial or total lost of communication. If the intercepted aircraft has a working standby radio it would have replied to the air traffic controlling agency or broadcast on the emergency frequency to either the air traffic controller or the F16Ds on its intention. In such instances, we should assume that its intention is hostile until proven otherwise. In the even of total communication failure there is a set of manoeuvres the aircraft is suppose to carry out to indicated to the controlling agency it has total communication failure. It appeared that the Cessna 208 had total comms failure and may/may not have carried out the lost comms procedure.

(iii) There is also a set of procedure(s) for the interceptor and intercepted. Upon being intercepted there are a set of aircraft manouevres from the interceptor and hand signals that will indicate to the intercepted aircraft what he is to do.​

Do you think that NZ is immune from terrorism (or pilots with mental health problems)? And are you still happy with Helen Clark for choosing to dismantle NZ's ACF?
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have to say I'm a little surprised that they are having difficulties - I thought if any aircraft would have a smooth upgrade cycle, it would be the grand old Herc.

Could it be the sheer age of the old birds contributing to the difficulties - or is it that this is a once-off, NZ-only upgrade?

Given the time and difficulty to upgrade the C-130's, and the ongoing maintenance costs, I wonder how the purchase of some brand new C-130's would stack up in comparison. Or would the maint costs for a brand new C-130 be comparable to one of our old birds?

Given the life these upgrades have been advertised as providing (10ish years from memory) and the cache these aircraft provide in allowing our government to fly the flag both in support of our allies and in humanitarian missions, I'm surprised this hasn't raised mention.
$250 million was budgeted for the C-130 upgrades. It is either going to cost us more or it will be another trip to the courts and then followed by the annual butt kicking from the Office of the Auditor General. We have had only 3 C-130's in operation since 2006. They have the highest flight hours of any H model in the world. They will need new engines within the next few years and there are a number of systems that will need replacing. That will be it for the forseeable future. The real danger is that the Christmas BBQ talk Ive heard about the project being the Kiwi version of the RAN Seasprite affair might in the end be more than beer talk and be too close for comfort. Basically it would have been cheaper over the long term to order C-130J's in 2002, what with lower whole of life costs, greater capability, reliability, less time spent in the hangers. The money was there at the time. Clark had just cancelled the F-16's. But we went off and bought 105 NZLAV's and put 40 of them into storage.

As someone said to me recently - what if the Samoan Tsunami happenned in mid 2008 and not mid 2009. Let me remind you of the winter of 2008. Both 757's overseas being upgraded, the Canterbury getting fixed, two C-130's in Edmonton (thenTexas), one of the three C-130's left in routine servicing at Whenuapei, the other up in Asia on deployment and only one left in NZ used for training and like this year - no visiting RAAF C-130J's which were the first Herc's to leave NZ on the day of the disaster this past september. It would not be our finest hour, would it now. The cavalier approach to defence will one day have its luck run out. It will destroy political careers, place NZ service personnel and others at grave risk or the unmentionable, and cash in completely all the chips of credibility built up over a century. One would like to think that at least the previous government would look to not skimping on C-130's now would you. :rolleyes:
 

bruceedwards

New Member
$250 million was budgeted for the C-130 upgrades. It is either going to cost us more or it will be another trip to the courts and then followed by the annual butt kicking from the Office of the Auditor General. We have had only 3 C-130's in operation since 2006. They have the highest flight hours of any H model in the world. They will need new engines within the next few years and there are a number of systems that will need replacing. That will be it for the forseeable future. The real danger is that the Christmas BBQ talk Ive heard about the project being the Kiwi version of the RAN Seasprite affair might in the end be more than beer talk and be too close for comfort. Basically it would have been cheaper over the long term to order C-130J's in 2002, what with lower whole of life costs, greater capability, reliability, less time spent in the hangers. The money was there at the time. Clark had just cancelled the F-16's. But we went off and bought 105 NZLAV's and put 40 of them into storage.

As someone said to me recently - what if the Samoan Tsunami happenned in mid 2008 and not mid 2009. Let me remind you of the winter of 2008. Both 757's overseas being upgraded, the Canterbury getting fixed, two C-130's in Edmonton (thenTexas), one of the three C-130's left in routine servicing at Whenuapei, the other up in Asia on deployment and only one left in NZ used for training and like this year - no visiting RAAF C-130J's which were the first Herc's to leave NZ on the day of the disaster this past september. It would not be our finest hour, would it now. The cavalier approach to defence will one day have its luck run out. It will destroy political careers, place NZ service personnel and others at grave risk or the unmentionable, and cash in completely all the chips of credibility built up over a century. One would like to think that at least the previous government would look to not skimping on C-130's now would you. :rolleyes:
See, this is what I thought, but given the importance of the C-130's to every branch of the military and the government as well I simply can't believe that this is being run so close to the wire.

Hopefully the whitepaper reinforces the need for us to get new 130's as soon as possible. Others can argue the benefits of a combat strike force as much as they wish, but without the logistic support transports provide we have a slow, stranded military incapable of meeting it's required outputs (i.e. deployment and aid).

With any luck, the difficulties with the upgrade process will allow the government to cancel the planned upgrades, claw back the cash, and put it into purchasing a number of new aircraft. Last I heard the flyaway cost of a new 'J' is about US$65 million - assuming this is accurate, one could replace our entire fleet on a one-for-one basis for only marginally more than the upgrades cost!

(I'm aware any purchase contract would also include extra $$ for ongoing maintenance, but I would assume this is already an expense we are paying for the existing fleet of C-130's.).
 

south

Well-Known Member
East Timor could have more than been handled by the RAAF.
The rugby world cup - well its going to be too late, given that even if NZ bought some jets they wouldnt get them in time and even if they did there wouldnt be time to train aircrew. Intercepting airliners, certainly not something that a A-4 was well suited to. In any "new" ACF are you saying that a percentage of the jets would be kept on 24/7 Alert5 as they would need to be to respond to any sudden developments? I highly doubt it.

Is NZ ever likely to deploy an ACF for operations? IMHO very unlikely. Fighter Jets are obviously a very high visibilty, very political thing to deploy, hence the previous and current Australian Govt reluctance to deploy fast jets but continued deployment of things such as C-130, P3, SOF etc. Is there a terrorist threat to NZ? Never say never, but IMHO unlikely - there are many more high visibility, high political impact targets out there.

Given the cost to the RAAF to get 24 FA-18F's we can assume there would be a similar level of expenditure (potentially greater for RNZAF for infrastructure etc) for the RNZAF to bring online a suitable ACF. It would certainly take in excess of 5 years after delivery of said aircraft to have a viable ACF, probably closer to 10. Most flight commanders in the RAAF have spent ~8-10years before reaching that level of rank & responsibility.

Are you advocating a similar level of expenditure for a force that will take a minimum of 5 years, more likely 7-10 to stand up in a deployable capability (for high end war fighting roles)

Got to go, will be away for a week, interested to see....
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think if you bothered to do some research you will find that the RAAF have deployed F/A-18's on a few ocassions over the last 10 years.

You seem to be like a large number of people in New Zealand that do not understand the fundamental difference between 'fighter' aircraft and 'attack' or 'strike' aircraft . Since you are going away on holiday you will have the chance to do some research and find out.

I also think that NZ does not need fighter aircraft, but believe we need aircraft that can perform the CAS role. To simplify the concept for you. We dont need air superiority or air defence but need strike & anti-ship.

What is this Timor handled by the RAAF stuff? Maybe in the Air Superiority role - but what if it came to us needing CAS? There was always that understanding that the RAAF would provide the umbrella and the A-4's could do their specialist taskings at the tactical level. Fairly presumptious - have you asked them if it was OK or is this some sort of unpaid expectation appealing to the Goodwill of the Australian people. The ADF through the Australian taxpayer do not buy extra resources just so they can cover New Zealands defensive needs as well as their own. They dont go Hmmmm I think we better add another 14 strike aircraft to the order just so we can cover NZ needs.

Also a Battalion Group of 1200 is just as highly symbolic and probably more visable than a squadron of 12 deployed strike aircraft. I dont know where you get these ideas from...

Around 14 KAI F/A-50 would be substantially less to buy and operate than 24 of the Aussie Shornets. The A-4 was a second tier multi-role aircraft so their is no reason that NZ should not again have a second teir air combat capable aircraft like the multi-role F/A-50. I think it is unrealistic to think of us buying the high end sort of kit as the Shornet or F35 however i think it is just as unrealistic for NZ to have no kit at all. I believe (Im not the only one) if the RNZAF were told to go buy 14 F/A-50's which are around the price of a Mk200 Hawk and given 5 years to get an operational squadron together. They would do it. They perform little miracles that go unnoticed everyday. :smilie
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would estimate New Zealand would have to quadruple its defense budget to buy this Christmas wish list more suitable for a nation of twelve million instead of a nation of only four million people. New Zealand isn't Australia, or even half of Australia when it comes to taxpayers.

If New Zealand wished to bring back its air combat force, New Zealand will find it difficult to have eighteen F/T-50s.... or nine new modern F-16s. Unfortunately, New Zealand can not even afford this at their current defense spending levels.

Aim much, much lower. New Zealand will be lucky to replace their 6 Orions and 5 Hercules aircraft with newer models plane per plane. New Zealand will be lucky to replace their training aircraft with a like number of PC-9s....

Most likely New Zealand will have to settle for fewer number of aircraft to replace the Orions, say in the neighborhood of three. Hopefully New Zealand will be able to afford five new Hercules aircraft, but I expect fewer. Not more, but less...

I do believe New Zealand could increase its defense budget some, at most 50 percent. With that funding increase I can see New Zealand buying five Poseidions and five Hercules. Zip though with T/F-50s. Maybe 18 T/F-50s if New Zealand increased their budget 75 percent...

I AM NOT HOLDING MY BREATHE!
Good - dont hold you breath Toby, relax, breath easy and smile. It will all be OK.:)

They are going to spend the money to improve the NZDF - not bags of it but enough to make a marked improvement in the medium to long term aspect of the DFR2010 - I would not be so pesimistic about it Toby, though It can be easy to be after the last few years. Any less than 5 Hercules is not viable to met past tasking tempo's let alone the increased tempo predictions over the next 20 years. They are feeling that at present - how just 3 is damaging. The current government know this- the Prime Minister is fully aware as he has a close relationship with Whenuapei and 40th Squadron as their local MP for Helensville. Also they are likely to replace the P3 with the P8 in less numbers 3 as you predict, however they will be supplemented with a Global Hawk type survelliance UAV, which will be a transformation. This has been politically signposted in recent weeks. You must remember that an essential part of the DFR2010 will (and for the first time since DFR1990) allow for a coherent and executable funding plan. This will not be the adhoc approach undertaken by the previous governemnt. They have an 7 to 12 year lead in time for much of the capital equipment replacement programme in terms of financing and acquistition planning.

I should also point out that the NZ economy is starting to get back into gear - its FTA with China is certainly starting to kick in, I want to bury once and for all the myth that NZ cannot afford to increase or has no capacity to increase, its defence spend. The truth is in the numbers - Its GDP to Debt ratio of 26% is one of the lowest in the OECD - much better than Japan 173%, Italy 113%, Germany 64%, US 73%, Canada 63%, Ireland 32% and the UK 59% (OECD 12/2008) The countries ability to borrow is very strong as is the national credit rating from Standard & Poors. Dairy prices are back up to 2007 levels, Oil is now the 4th biggest export sector and growing fast, and the banking sector is rock solid. Its financial house is in far better shape than most of the world - except for our mates from across the ditch but they are a tough act to follow.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I believe (Im not the only one) if the RNZAF were told to go buy 14 F/A-50's which are around the price of a Mk200 Hawk and given 5 years to get an operational squadron together. They would do it. They perform little miracles that go unnoticed everyday. :smilie
I just wanted to make little correction here... AFAIK the price of a BAE Hawk was ~£18 million in 2003 figures. From the article here, the KAI T-50 Golden Eagle had a price per unit of ~$21 million in 2008. I admit, I am assuming the $21 million figure is in USD. At current exchange rates, that puts the Hawk nearly $8 million more expensive per aircraft, without factoring in inflation which would realistically just put the difference even higher.

-Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I should also point out that the NZ economy is starting to get back into gear - its FTA with China is certainly starting to kick in, I want to bury once and for all the myth that NZ cannot afford to increase or has no capacity to increase, its defence spend. The truth is in the numbers - Its GDP to Debt ratio of 26% is one of the lowest in the OECD - much better than Japan 173%, Italy 113%, Germany 64%, US 73%, Canada 63%, Ireland 32% and the UK 59% (OECD 12/2008) The countries ability to borrow is very strong as is the national credit rating from Standard & Poors. Dairy prices are back up to 2007 levels, Oil is now the 4th biggest export sector and growing fast, and the banking sector is rock solid. Its financial house is in far better shape than most of the world - except for our mates from across the ditch but they are a tough act to follow.
I personally still do not think it a myth that NZ cannot increase its defence spending. OTOH, I have also always felt that the reason an increase cannot be done was not so much an economic issue as a political/social issue. There is money available the question is, where do the people/pollys want to spend it...

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I just wanted to make little correction here... AFAIK the price of a BAE Hawk was ~£18 million in 2003 figures. From the article here, the KAI T-50 Golden Eagle had a price per unit of ~$21 million in 2008. I admit, I am assuming the $21 million figure is in USD. At current exchange rates, that puts the Hawk nearly $8 million more expensive per aircraft, without factoring in inflation which would realistically just put the difference even higher.

-Cheers
You are right actually. I was too lazy to be precise - the point I wanted South to get is that their is a difference between Tier 1 (Shornets) and Teir 2 (F/A-50's) in cost (and capability obviously). Yes the Hawk should be more expensive at the GBP18m and checking the current rate that makes it NZ$41m. I understand that the flyaway F/A-50 should be about 30% more than the T-50 - so yeah US21m + 30% would make it is a good ball park.

Would be better to buy direct through the Won to Kiwi rate - would save a bit too.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Okay, here is my rough outline on how the RNZAF could potentially re-introduce an ACF and/or a fast-jet training programme. Please keep in mind, while I do indeed believe that the NZDF does need to have at least a basic ACF, I am cognizant of the fact that the NZDF has limited resources available to it, and many other demands for these same limited resources. Therefore this post is not one of me advocating for the RNZAF to take the actions I have specified, rather it is a possible plan should Government/the NZDF/RNZAF decide to restore the ACF.

I would expect that it would take ~ 10 years from the time of programme initiation until FOC is reached.

Once it is decided to proceed towards an ACF/fastjet capability, an RFI would be placed to evaluate suitable aircraft. My personal preference would be the KAI T/A-50 (or is it F/A-50?) Golden Eagle, but other possible contenders are the Aermacchi M-346, the Aero Vodochody L-159B, or a BAE Hawk variant combining the features of the Mk 128 and Mk 203/208/209. An initial order for ~12 aircraft would be placed, with the possibility of additional orders for another ~12-24 aircraft to be placed in the future. Yes, I am aware that at first glance, the RNZAF operating ~36 examples of a fastjet trainer & light attack aircraft might seem a laughable idea, but I am going somewhere with this idea...

Simultaneously, a new recruiting drive should be launched to swell the number of RNZAF personnel since the RNZAF is going to see an increase in personnel demands due to the additional aircraft entering service. Even if just a dozen aircraft are purchased, I would estimate that at least an additional 50 personnel would be required to for manning the unit without stripping personnel from other units. Failure to start this drive early could result in a similar situation which the RNZN has been concerned about with the Project Protector fleet, which there are more ships in service requiring personnel than are available to crew them.
End of Year 1.

Assuming that the decision on which aircraft is made within a year, I would then send an initial detachment of RNZAF personnel to the nation/air force/manufacturer of the chosen design for training. I would imagine that this initial detachment would total approximately two dozen personnel, divided between pilots and ground crew drawn from experienced RNZAF personnel. Initial training and utilization for the aircraft could likely be completed within ~6 months, but I would imagine that a 12 or 18 month training regime would allow the RNZAF detachment sufficient time to build up the necessary expertise on the aircraft so that these personnel could then act as trainers within NZ.
End of Year 2.5

At this point, roughly half of the RNZAF pilot detachment would return to NZ to setup the unit at Base Woodbourne on South Island, along with the trained ground crew and an initial batch of aircraft. They would then work to reach IOC with however many aircraft are included with the initial delivery (likely 2-4 aircraft). As part of this, training would commence within NZ to pass on the ability to operate and maintain the aircraft.

At the same time, the other half of the RNZAF pilot detachment would be posted to a training centre(s) in Australia/the UK/Canada/USA to allow these pilots to gain the piloting and planning skills needed for CAS, strike/maritime strike and (limited) air to air missions. This would be intended to only build up sufficient skill for the RNZAF pilots to then train and pass on the skills to other RNZAF pilots and personnel. I would be mistaken, but I believe this too would take ~12-18 months and then the detachment would return to NZ.
End of Year 4.

Following the return of all RNZAF personnel engaged in overseas training, the trainers would begin a programme to cross-train each other in the various skills which they have developed, as well as slowly increasing the numbers of trained fastjet pilots and ground crew. At this point, the unit (at least if 12 aircraft are ordered) should have reached full manning pilots and ground crew.
End of Year 5.

Training would now begin to allow the RNZAF ACF to rebuild the strike and CAS capability to the degree it was prior to the ACF being disbanded. At the same time, there would be a low level of training conducted to pass on the fastjet and basic ACF skills to the rest of the fixed wing pilots within the RNZAF. This would likely take ~ 5 years to reach the same degree of skill and FOC.
End of Year 10.

Now, onto costs.
I estimate that the initial costs for the aircraft, simulators, pilot and ground crew uptraining, etc. would likely run ~US$700 million for ~12 aircraft, spread out over the first three years. If additional aircraft and related ancillary equipment (sims, etc) were ordered, that would likely cost ~$US600 million per dozen aircraft. Additionally, if there was a stocking order placed for weapons, that would likely run between US$50-100 million, but of course being very dependent on the weapons and quantities desired.

In terms of ongoing training and operational costs, I would expect would be on the order of ~NZ$100 million per dozen aircraft annually starting at around Year 4.

Now, for the explanation of why NZ might wish to purchase as many as 24 or 36 fastjet trainers... As I have mentioned before (at least twice IIRC) there is the possibility of some nation creating a flight training centre to provide advanced and LIF training in the ASEAN/South Pacific Region. By getting appropriate agreements in place with various potential client-states, such a training centre could allow for economies of scale which would be otherwise difficult for the various nations to achieve, were they to operate their own advanced training centre. IMO the two nations in the region best able to setup and operate such a facility are Australia and New Zealand, both being advanced nations with comparatively sizeable economies, and also possessing significant airspace available for training flights. I am certain that from an economic and technical perspective Singapore could also operate such a facility, but IMO it lacks sufficient ground & air space to do so properly.

I look forward to others thoughts on this, please comment on any areas of ambiguity or where corrections are needed.

-Cheers
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
As you may know, Singapore already conducts artillery training in NZ and we have excellent deference relations with NZ. In fact, one of the officers being commissioned on 19 Dec 2009, in Singapore, is from the NZ Defence Forces.

IMO the two nations in the region best able to setup and operate such a facility are Australia and New Zealand, both being advanced nations with comparatively sizeable economies, and also possessing significant airspace available for training flights. I am certain that from an economic and technical perspective Singapore could also operate such a facility, but IMO it lacks sufficient ground & air space to do so properly.

I look forward to others thoughts on this, please comment on any areas of ambiguity or where corrections are needed.
A large part of Singapore pilot training is not held in Singapore. The air grading course (6 weeks) and basics wing course (6 to 9 months) are currently held in Australia (click here for our pilot training programme structure) and our Flying Training school at RAAF Pearce Base uses the Pilatus PC-21 for basic flying training. Under a contract awarded through the MINDEF Public-Private Partnership (PPP) arrangement, Lockheed Martin Simulation, Training and Support (LMSTS) provides the RSAF with a Basic Wings Course (BWC) training package using the PC-21 aircraft trainer. They also supply and maintain the fleet of 19 PC-21 aircraft trainers and a suite of ground-based training systems, including a flight simulator. The RSAF provides the instructors.

After BWC, Singapore conducts our LIFT in Cazaux, France with TA-4SU Super Skyhawks (which we call the advanced training phase and it lasts for 11 months). This arrangement came about in 1998 when the French government stepped in with a 25-year lease of facilities at Cazaux AB in the south of France with basing rights for 18 aircraft and around 250 RSAF personnel and their families. The French site was selected because of available practice bombing ranges and airspace over the North Atlantic for ACM training, as well as opportunity for electronic warfare technique practice. BTW Singapore is considering replacing the TA-4SU Super Skyhawks with either the KAI T/A-50 (in a related development Singapore and S. Korea sign a MOU) or the Aermacchi M-346. I'm sure a cost shared between two parties is a cost half-ed, especially for capital expenditures on stuff like flight simulators.

IMO, there is also nothing to prevent NZ from making a offer to share training costs or even to host Singapore pilots on an NZ airbase on the long term basis, given that Singapore is in need to airspace to train and NZ has that in abundance (though the RSAF may have a problem breaking the 14 years remaining on the lease at Cazaux for the advanced training phase). A joint arrangement would probably benefit NZ more as the number of NZ ACF pilots to be trained on an annual recurring basis would be small in most years (and that only the first or second batches would have large numbers, so as to set up the squadron of the size Todjaeger proposes). OTOH, the new RSAF fighter pilots pipeline is larger as we maintain 7 fighter squadrons, so I'm sure any joint programme (if it can be agreed upon and need not be for only for the LIFT phase) will result in Singapore bearing more of the costs. The added advantage is that the RSAF could send 1 or 2 officers and even crew chiefs on secondment to aid in NZ's re-establishment of a ACF, given that most of our guys are US trained in the F-16 platform, which shares certain common characteristics with the KAI T/A-50 and also used by the RSAF for a maritime role. See post #15 for the Sept 2009 issue of Air Forces Monthly, which provides details of the RSAF F-16 training in the US. Hosting a training detachment from the RSAF is literally good business, for Mountain Home, where the F-15SGs are based - it is estimated the the base itself gains US$25m of revenue, which will help offset NZ's future ACF investments.

Your thoughts?
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Actually, the RSAF, or more specifically, the RSAF training abroad, was one of the initial sources for my idea. The other of course being the NFTC in Canada.

IMO having the NZDF lease a portion of Base Woodbourne to the RSAF and/or operating a joint FTC would be a very good idea. The principle drawbacks to the idea being the RSAF possibly needing to terminate some existing leasing agreements as well as the potential NIMBY reaction on the part of some Kiwi residents.

Personally I am of the opinion that having RSAF TA-4SU Skyhawks aloft over NZ would leave a lot of egg on the faces of those who successfully led the termination of the ACF and therefore I am all for that.

I do feel that if a joint FTC was established though, a minimum of 12 aircraft would need to be owned by, and flying RNZAF colours. This way, if a special situation arose where NZ needed to make use of the secondary role available on the trainer, it could without needing to go through layers of approval. By special situation I mean everything from conducting an air intercept of an airliner gone astray, to maritime strikes done as part of a joint ADF/NZDF exercise.

-Cheers
 
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