I agree, and with that I will place my wager they end up going the Twardy route, Poland has really sweetened the deal by offering better cost options and upgrade packages. But who knows even the Germans and Ukrainians have offered them tanks.
MBT-2000 (Al-khalid / Type-90-IIM)
- Thread starter Chuncho
- Start date
They have been looking now for quite some time, but the Chilean factor more than likely has speeded up the sense of urgency.
Sorry I misinterpreted the maps, I'm not familiar with Southamerican landscape
If the environment of operation is indeed desert, than the Al-Khalid is surely a machine that has already proven it's worth in such terrain. But so did the T-90 in Indian service.
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Is HIT right now producing tanks for the Pakistani army? If they do than they might not be able to deliver the tanks for Peru in time, and Peru might go for another bidder.
SURB
Member
I doubt about it ,because of current geopolitics,they will surely like HIT to first fullfill the primary requirements at home.
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I believe HIT is still in production of Al-Khalid since Pakistan Army's orders have not been completed yet, in fact I think they have moved to Al-Khalid-1 variant (improvement over previous Al-Khalid). Meanwhile Al-Khalid-2 (next generation MBT program) is in R&D and as soon as its completed it will take up the production line (in 2019). But regardless of this busy schedule of theirs HIT has been marketing the tank to Middle Eastern countries and promises timely delivery. However, the tank being offered to Peru is MBT-2000 (the Chinese variant) and I think NORINCO should be in good shape to deliver them on time(?).
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #26
Well the technical peruvian army committee recommended the T-90S a few months ago, I guess due to lack of fundings they analized the PT-91 and the MBT-2000, and apparently tje latter will be the winner, will see... I personally like the T-90S.sorry i forgot there is some time limit as well ,yeah for the first week of January i doubt HIT can deliver them as soon,well it's game over i think
i also doubt if pak army can wait ,because of current geopolitics,they will surely like HIT to first fullfill the primary requirements at home.
Chuncho ! what's your opinion: you liked T-90 , curtains for AL-KHALID.:cry
The Chilean army will have 140 Leopard 2A4, but I think not all of them have delivered and the units equipped with it are not operational so far.
I'm no expert for South America as well, but Chile and Peru had wars with each other in the past, and the relations between these two countries are quite strained. Here you have a pretty recent example of their behaviour towards each other.
I'm no expert for South America as well, but Chile and Peru had wars with each other in the past, and the relations between these two countries are quite strained. Here you have a pretty recent example of their behaviour towards each other.
If Chilean army is going for a Leopard 2A4 wouldn't it make sense for peruvians to go for a heavier tank than Al-Khalid? what are the options available to Peru?
In Indian Army we are more concerned about T-80UDs than the Al-Khalids in Pakistani Inventory. I think T-80s are decent tanks too if its available to Peru. T-90 is definetly a good choice for a tank, Still I am not sure how they stack up against 2A4 however.
T-84s are available if they want them along with LEO 2 models also, everyone seems more than willing to offer them a tank, this is going to come down to cost. I would be interested in your statement though that India is more concerned with Pakistans T-80UD versus AL-Khalid, why.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #32
Hello friends,
At this moment the peruvian military parade just started and is confirm that the Al-Khalid tank will be appeare in a few minutes. Here it is a fresh photo from this morning prior to the ceremony.
Apparently with this appeareance the Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 is the new peruvian MBT. Unfortunately we don't have large funds (specially for the Ministry of Defense) so the army will choose a mid cost tank I guess.
The army has not made officially any tank acquisition so the other thing is just that the goverment is just showing the 5 Al-Khalid in Lima to the public that they are here for test purposes only.
At this moment the peruvian military parade just started and is confirm that the Al-Khalid tank will be appeare in a few minutes. Here it is a fresh photo from this morning prior to the ceremony.
Apparently with this appeareance the Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 is the new peruvian MBT. Unfortunately we don't have large funds (specially for the Ministry of Defense) so the army will choose a mid cost tank I guess.
The army has not made officially any tank acquisition so the other thing is just that the goverment is just showing the 5 Al-Khalid in Lima to the public that they are here for test purposes only.
its pretty simple when T-80UDs came in for pakistan we had no modern MBT even close to commissioning that could match it equally, except maybe for older T-72s. Our acquisition was dead slow and the best we had were the Ajeyas(Older ones, not "Combat Improved Ajeya" versions you can see now a days). At any rate T-80UD was a proven tank and it came at a time when we were slacking off too much on our tank purchases for a nation our size and were thoroughly unprepared.
Al Khalid may be newer but its a unproven tank (based on another unproven tank) and Pakistan went for it probably because it doesn't have too many option on what tanks it can purchase other than what chinese might supply them, specs are not that impressive if you factor it all in. It has also come at a time when Indian Army already has a overwhelming numerical superiority and some qualitative superiority over pakistan( You might dispute that last part if you want) in terms of armour. Now we have upgraded our T-72s rapidly and not to mention the good number of T-90S and a regiment of Arjuns already in service. I think the least they should have done is get a qualitative superiority by acquiring the Abrams they were evaluating in late 90s(that had given us a big scare
) but I understand there might be economic considerations there.
SURB
Member
well for Peru the battlefield concept will be applied to the deserts they got, and in desert warfare Mobility is essential to be successful. It has been noted that mobility is so important in desert warfare, that battles can sometimes begin to resemble naval engagements, where the actual possession of territory is less important than the positions of ones tanks (or ships).
To have a light weight tank in armory is a blessing.
The heavier you are the more you sink in the sand
From an agile tank you can't hide in a desert environment(because of lack of cover or little obstruction)
So their interest in AL-KHALID is justified,i suppose heavier tank will be a junk for them.T-90 is a good choice when you have enough funds, and if they can get every thing they require via AL-KHALID purchase isn't it a better choice for them infact
.
SURB
Member
well same applies to T-90 and arjun they aren't battle proven( if i can understand from the word Proven), former well proven in Export marketI think the least they should have done is get a qualitative superiority by acquiring the Abrams they were evaluating in late 90s(that had given us a big scare
(not sure about the latter)and AL-KHALID fast matching it.Showing it's agility in this field as well.Acquiring AL-KHALID in that era was a step toward self reliance and now they already got 300 of them.The sanctions were blessing in disguise.
Not to go for the Abrams was decision taken after it's failure in the evaluation test near Bahawalpur.It missed all the 10 targets and then it broke down, SABRE mentioned it earlier.So performance is the base for it's rejection.
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If they go with it they will be getting a good tank with excellant capabilities.
Did they say specifically that this is a Al-Khalid version, because your photo suggests that it may be in fact a MBT 2000 VT1A.
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SURB
Member
Yeah sure a good economic solution with quality of the tank matching T-90s in desert terrain.
In this modern day and age you cannot use the battle proven theory any longer, new testing critera with technology to assist can do a pretty good job in designing a initial proto type plus factor in the cooperation between countries on their proven technologies. Pakistan could have T-84s if they wanted them but they decided to go the Al-Khalid route due to major advancement in technologies that China and Ukraine have made in armor vehicle designs, I find it ironic that there are still people circulating on some of these forums(not implying you) who refuse to give China and Ukraine credit when it comes to vehicle designs, both countries can match anything that comes out of Russia MBT wise but every one feels that the T-90 is the altimate premier tank and why, the T-series has nothing but a dismal performance past, do not sell the Chinese short. With that said I would state that Ukraine has helped assist China and Pakistan in the design of Al-Khalid,(example) please remember that some of the T-80UD turrets supplied to Pakistan are of all welded design with K5 secondary armor, kinda like the same as your T-90S tanks right. So I do not think that Pakistan would take a lessor capable tank in its inventory, especially due to the region they would be operating in. T-90S and Al-Khalid are both very capable tanks that will serve India and Pakistan proud, if war was to break out ( and I hope not) it is gonna come to who has the best battle doctrine.its pretty simple when T-80UDs came in for pakistan we had no modern MBT even close to commissioning that could match it equally, except maybe for older T-72s. Our acquisition was dead slow and the best we had were the Ajeyas(Older ones, not "Combat Improved Ajeya" versions you can see now a days). At any rate T-80UD was a proven tank and it came at a time when we were slacking off too much on our tank purchases for a nation our size and were thoroughly unprepared.
Al Khalid may be newer but its a unproven tank (based on another unproven tank) and Pakistan went for it probably because it doesn't have too many option on what tanks it can purchase other than what chinese might supply them, specs are not that impressive if you factor it all in. It has also come at a time when Indian Army already has a overwhelming numerical superiority and some qualitative superiority over pakistan( You might dispute that last part if you want) in terms of armour. Now we have upgraded our T-72s rapidly and not to mention the good number of T-90S and a regiment of Arjuns already in service. I think the least they should have done is get a qualitative superiority by acquiring the Abrams they were evaluating in late 90s(that had given us a big scare
If Peru goes this route it will be interesting to see what type of caps (projectiles) they will use for combat loads and who will supply them, also is it possible that they will go with a AFV purchase to keep up with their new offensive capability.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #39
Actually the press and the army are calling it as the MBT-2000; the Minister of Defense and the other officer that were interviewed in the local TV stated that these 5 tanks were given by China as test units, further more the Minister stated that the Chinese tanks are the ones ahead on the competition for the final MBT. What is strange is that this is the first time in Peru that an arm system it's shown publicly and in a parade while still a 'competitor' in a competition.
Here more pics: