The F-16 replacement of the Royal Netherlands Airforce.

IPA35

New Member
I need you opinions on this.

We currently own 86 F-16's that need to be replaced.
The MoD's favourite is 85 F-35A's but it is getting clear that we are not able to affor 85 units, it has leaked that we will onlky be able to buy and operate 55 planes and that while we might be able to buy the other planes we will not be able to operate them.
The F-35 budget was around 6 billion for the purchase and 10 for 30 years of service.
SAAB offered their Gripen NG at 5 + 5 billion BTW.

So what do you people think that's the best solution?
Feel free to suggest more then 1 type.
 

zeven

New Member
You guys are second tie partner in the project, so i can't see you picking someting els. and i strongly believe the competetion is only there because it needs to be. so its really no reason to debate it! I do have my personal opinion on the matter and which platform that suits you best. but thats another story. F-35 will be your new platform
 

IPA35

New Member
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  • #3
Hhmmm, it is not yet decided and the F-35 is getting more and more negative media attention over here.

But what do we want to do with 40 aircraft?!
Equip 2 squadrons, close an AFB and place some in the US for training?

Let's say we want a 1 on 1 replacement of the F-16, as planned.
What's you opinion?
 

B3LA

Banned Member
Unfortunately, the safety umbrella of ol' Uncle Sam does not come cheap these days.
The Netherlands have to pay its part by participating in the F-35 project and then
maintain as many of the bombers as possible.
In the worst case scenario, (where the Bear wakes up in a foul mood), the F-22s will
clear the skies for you, and then all of NATOs F-35s will go on deep strike missions
carrying tactical nukes.
I can't see any other risk assessments for Netherlands, why do you need an air force anyway ?
Are those naughty Belgians arming up again ? :rolleyes:
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Ahhh the unsubstantiated "JSF is a bomber" myth once more.

The very abridged answer to your question is the ability to escalate - this will make a country like Russia - or other believers in hard security hesitate.
 

IPA35

New Member
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  • #6
No, the Belgians are currently destroying their military...
We should not follow their path.

40 planes is far too few:sleepy2

We could buy like 2 squadrons of F-35's but we would still need 85 planes so we would have to buy something else...

IMO
 

Stampe

New Member
First post on this interesting board.

As for the Dutch and the JSF, I think that Jack de vries and the entire Netherlands Air forces are pretty much deathset in going for the JSF.
Even 56 will be hard for the NLAF to maintain, they"ll probably get the numbers but will budget yearly flying hours for 48 frames or so.

It is very likely that the Dutch will once again be flying 2 frontline fighter types (as they did in the F104/F5 years) with a number of the lowest hour F16 frames going through a second type of MLU update ,probably with the LM option of doubling framelife from 4000 to 8000hrs, which will keep them up and running until atleast 2030 or 2035.
48 JSF + 8 factual reserve together with 24 or 36 F-16's will still be a very potent force and will give the Air Force the option of budgetting for extra/newer JSF's 15 to 20 years from now.

It's probably not the politicians that are going to kill the dream of owning 86 JSF from the start but more likely the other forces who just won't put up with it.
The ARMY and NAVY are both very opposed to the JSF and the effects it will have in the following years on the budget and with the current Chief of Staff they have a very strong allie on their sides.

the only thing wich for now seems to play in favor of the JSF is the dollar-Euro value now
First Joint Strike Fighter Test Aircraft Cheaper
First Joint Strike Fighter Test Aircraft Cheaper


(Source: Netherlands Ministry of Defense, issued November 19, 2009)



The first F-35 (JSF) test aircraft [for the Netherlands] is 13.5 million euros cheaper than anticipated, because the current value of the dollar is lower than the budgeted rate, State Secretary Jack De Vries reported today in a letter to the House.
 

IPA35

New Member
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  • #8
I actually calculated the Japanese offer...
The said 9 billion yen for 40 planes, that like 68 million euro's each.
Now that's pretty impossible...


I'd rather see 2 squadrons of the JSF and 3 of the Gripen NG, the F-16 ARE getting too old.
And the Gripen is better and heaper to operate then the F-16 block 60.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I actually calculated the Japanese offer...
The said 9 billion yen for 40 planes, that like 68 million euro's each.
Now that's pretty impossible...
Not when you include through life support, weapons, training and spares (which has to be budgeted for. To put it in perspective the RAAF has purchased 24 F/A-18F's and budgeted $6 billion AUD, but the actually cost of the platforms was $2.7 Billion AUD. The rest is through life support.


And the Gripen is better then the F-16 block 60.
Really? How so? AFAIK the block 60 out performs the Gripen in almost every PI, INCLUDING cost.
 

IPA35

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I meant the NG.
I read somewhere F-16 costs like 3600$ per flight hour and a Gripen NG 2500$.
But please correct me, if it is true new F-16's could complement the small number of F-35's.
Prehaps less conversion training would be needed since already own F-16's.
(AFAIK all are block 20 MLU's.)
 

Toptob

Active Member
I didnt even think about a two type solution. But it sounds pretty good. To bad we sold our good F-16's, but it sounds like a realistic solution.

However, i'd rather see a 1 type solution with another plane. Maybe gripen, but atleast something with some decent ofsets for industry. But we in the NL seem to be allergic to support our own economy and rather sell anything off to some fat Yanks or crazy Germans who strip it and sell it. Thats the new poldermodel.

But none of this is going to happen. I think the KLU should be happy if they receive one squadron in the end. The surrender monkey's on the left rather see no armed forces at all and spend it all on invalids and eastern europeans who come here to get some welfare!

oh and the airforce had already decided to buy the F-35 before the Americans even thought of it. They're just sluts for american materiel.

's probably not the politicians that are going to kill the dream of owning 86 JSF from the start but more likely the other forces who just won't put up with it.
The ARMY and NAVY are both very opposed to the JSF and the effects it will have in the following years on the budget and with the current Chief of Staff they have a very strong allie on their sides.[/quote}

could you explain some more about the politics behind the scene's ?

grtz Rob
 

IPA35

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  • #12
AFAIK we kept the F-16's with the lowest flight hours (block 20's only?).

We now all know that there are no funds to operate 85 F-35's (JSFNieuws/Reporter doco).
I agree the politicians are incompetent pacifists, although not all your agruments are valid;)
Sooner or later they'll probably tell us we an't afford a military and they'll create a EU military:D

I really like the Gripen for it's STOL capabilities, including the way the Swedes operate these planes.
(land on road, refuel, rearm...)
That gives it the edge over the block 60 to me, unless we take the F-35B, but that's very unlikely and expensive.


People always tell me two types is too expensive, but let's face it, it's far cheaper then operating 85 F-35A's...
And only the Gripen NG might not be capabel enough for all types of missions.
 

Stampe

New Member
's probably not the politicians that are going to kill the dream of owning 86 JSF from the start but more likely the other forces who just won't put up with it.
The ARMY and NAVY are both very opposed to the JSF and the effects it will have in the following years on the budget and with the current Chief of Staff they have a very strong allie on their sides.
could you explain some more about the politics behind the scene's ?

grtz Rob
Just like in most other Armed Forces there exists an everlasting , yearly returning, fight about the division of funds for the procurement of new or more weapon-systems and others.
IIRC in most NATO countries about 15-20% of the DoD budget goes to purchases, in this case the Air Forces of the NLu need a disproportionate percentage to fund the new fighter, be it JSF or whatever else.
This obviously will cut deeply in the available budget and will leave the NAVY and ARMY postponing or altogether abandoning plans for their own new weapon systems which might be equally necessary

Also there is a big conflict between the Air Force and the NAVY, both use big and very unit-expensive weapon-systems, the AF these days relies heavily on foreign (read US) manufacturers and in a lesser degree on Dutch suppliers:partners in the JSF projects while the NAVY basically has to support an almost entirely internal Dutch military shipbuilder economy.
Political pressure to favor the Navy will be all the bigger for it.

Getting their dream of 86 JSF's from the start will proof to be impossible, that's why they are willing to put up with a very slow rate of writing of the old and trusted F16, which ,with the necessary upgrades, could very well do part of the job for 25-30 more years.
Effectively giving a 2 type fighter air force for the next decades.

Their is also another big reason and it is a purely practical one.
The JSF (as the F22 before) is an exclusive 1 seater, this means that many training missions will have to be flown with 1 or more extra planes (for the instructor - senior pilot).
This can be problematic for little air forces (like most European ones are in comparison with the US).

Eg, IIRC in the early 2000's we had 10860 total yearly flying hours on the F16 fleet in Kleine Brogel (Tiger squadron).
It is absolutely vital to use these hours as efficiently as possible and to make every single one count.
Young or low hour pilots need a lot of training and therefore we need the F16B actually more than the A-type.
EG; If you fly to the gun range and have to do a 15° nose down 1000kph Vulcan cannon gun-run for the first time you need an instructor in the back as a backup.
In case of the F35 you need at least another instructor following and shadowing you all the way through the run.

Many times a two seater adds to the efficient use of allocated flying time and more specifically training and instructor time (which if the hours are all used up in October or so will lead to the fleet being grounded for the rest of the fiscal year)

This is a serious handicap in the JSF (and F22) which can partly be overcome by newer , more modern simulators but ultimately actual flying hours remain critical.
Even the USAF keeps its newest jets on the same base as their older F15's or F16's to overcome this shortfall.

I really like the Gripen for it's STOL capabilities, including the way the Swedes operate these planes.
(land on road, refuel, rearm...)
That gives it the edge over the block 60 to me, unless we take the F-35B, but that's very unlikely and expensive.
Most of these nifty features like the ability to TO+Land on short improvised runways can also be done by the F16 if the need arises, however it is not a good enough reason to go for the Gripen.
these abilities are virtually useless for the Dutch.
The "low hours F16's" can be upgraded (higher hours airframe ,better radar and CFT if the need exists) so much so that the Gripen would only be equally capable with the modernised F16 at best.

One of the best reasons Air Forces all over the world go for US equipment is the knowledge that
the US aviation defense industry is committed to constantly upgrade almost every system on active airframes.
That's why US 30+ years old designs still are at the top when it comes to combat effectiveness , level of technology and cost efficiency of use.

A shrill contrast with older European systems that where outright innovative at their time of conception but gradually lost their edge due to the inefficient follow up programs (Jaguar/Tornado/F1/....).

I hope these days us Europeans realize that when we've made the choice to field something as big and important as a new fighter plane we have to stick with it over its entire lifespan, constantly improving upon the design.
Saab seems to have understood this vital lesson.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Unfortunately, the safety umbrella of ol' Uncle Sam does not come cheap these days.
The Netherlands have to pay its part by participating in the F-35 project and then
maintain as many of the bombers as possible.
In the worst case scenario, (where the Bear wakes up in a foul mood), the F-22s will
clear the skies for you, and then all of NATOs F-35s will go on deep strike missions
carrying tactical nukes.
I can't see any other risk assessments for Netherlands, why do you need an air force anyway ?
Are those naughty Belgians arming up again ? :rolleyes:
The F-35 is no more a bomber than the Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale, Super Hornet or even SU-30 is.

It is a multi-role fighter aircraft.
 

B3LA

Banned Member
It's a jack-of-all-trades. Jacks usually do all things reasonable well, but they do not outperform dedicated experts.
It's a compromise where the highest priority have been given to low frontal observation from ground based radar.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
In my mind this comes down to money:

Austria bought (a few) Eurofighters for a unit price of Euro 63M. This included quite extended service contracts.

SAAB has apparently offered DK 48 Gripen NG for 22B DKkr (that's 62M Euro per unit) (includes pilot training, simulators and 20 years full life cycle costs).

What will be the price of the F35? What will be the exchange rate between dollar-Euro in 5-10 years from now?

We don't know, the people behind the F35 are either unable or unwilling to quote a pricetag (that should raise some alarmbells for people that got an ounce of brain left) estimates as far as I can see range from around dollars 60M to 120M.

Let's assume worst case scenario - that's only fair when the dealers won't cite a price (they probably have a reason for not wanting to cough up a price estimate) That's dollars 120M per plane. Let's assume that when these money are to be paid the dollar has strengthen herself to 90% of a Euro (that's not unreasonable) then the euro price for a F35 is 108M!!!!!!!!!

I don't know whether these price estimates are realistic at all. I am uncertain that anybody knows the final price tag to any reasonable degree of certainty, since it all depends on how many planes the US are going to end up buying.
I do know that the number of planes that the US is going to buy is governed by the following simple equation:

Number =Budget/unit_price

In other words, if the price (per unit) goes up, the only way to maintain the number (of airplanes) is to increase the budget - we can then ask ourselves wheter we think that the Obama administration (or another administration) will increase the budget in the face of/or aftermath of an financial crisis, State finances that look terrible, a huge debt and a tradebalance that's really looking awfull? Notice that, assuming constant budget, an increase in unit_price leads to a decrease in number, which directly translates into a higher unit_price: That's a downward spiral.
As far as I know the original buisness case proposed by LM, envisioned possible sales of 5000-6000 F35s, to this day many partner nations use a sales figure of 4500-6000 F35s.
Even the low number seems pretty high to me, and will undoubtably be very sensible to increases in unit price..

The important thing here is that a number of NATO countries are running a huge financial risc in this adventure. For them the F35 is intended to be the one and only plane and many (let's just say all) these countries are not very hot on increasing their defense spendings. End result can be few flying F35 - which will be hugely expensive to operate per unit since much of the costs are relatively fixed. Ofcourse should the price tag prove to be too much, other airplanes can be considered - though that's perhaps not an option since these manufactors will have scaled their operations under the impression of a smaller market.
And in my oppinion this is why you don't get tangible price estimates out of LM - they want to keep the bowl stiring - and suffocate the competitors.

Also since we don't get tangible price estimates out of LM, we can take that as a sign that LM fears that their plane is not financially competiative. They must fear that disclosing price estimates will open up for competion, that potential buyers will get scared off and head for existing alternatives while time is.
At this advanced state a competent firm like LM must have a pretty good idea what the F35 will cost per unit as a function of total ordered planes - it must.
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
In my mind this comes down to money:

Austria bought (a few) Eurofighters for a unit price of Euro 63M. This included quite extended service contracts.

SAAB has apparently offered DK 48 Gripen NG for 22B DKkr (that's 62M Euro per unit) (includes pilot training, simulators and 20 years full life cycle costs).

What will be the price of the F35? What will be the exchange rate between dollar-Euro in 5-10 years from now?

We don't know, the people behind the F35 are either unable or unwilling to quote a pricetag (that should raise some alarmbells for people that got an ounce of brain left) estimates as far as I can see range from around dollars 60M to 120M.

Let's assume worst case scenario - that's only fair when the dealers won't cite a price (they probably have a reason for not wanting to cough up a price estimate) That's dollars 120M per plane. Let's assume that when these money are to be paid the dollar has strengthen herself to 90% of a Euro (that's not unreasonable) then the euro price for a F35 is 108M!!!!!!!!!

I don't know whether these price estimates are realistic at all. I am uncertain that anybody knows the final price tag to any reasonable degree of certainty, since it all depends on how many planes the US are going to end up buying.
I do know that the number of planes that the US is going to buy is governed by the following simple equation:

Number =Budget/unit_price

In other words, if the price (per unit) goes up, the only way to maintain the number (of airplanes) is to increase the budget - we can then ask ourselves wheter we think that the Obama administration (or another administration) will increase the budget in the face of/or aftermath of an financial crisis, State finances that look terrible, a huge debt and a tradebalance that's really looking awfull? Notice that, assuming constant budget, an increase in unit_price leads to a decrease in number, which directly translates into a higher unit_price: That's a downward spiral.
As far as I know the original buisness case proposed by LM, envisioned possible sales of 5000-6000 F35s, to this day many partner nations use a sales figure of 4500-6000 F35s.
Even the low number seems pretty high to me, and will undoubtably be very sensible to increases in unit price..

The important thing here is that a number of NATO countries are running a huge finacial risc in this adventure. For them the F35 is intended to be the one and only plane and many (let's just say all) these countries are not very hot on increasing their defense spendings. End result can be few flying F35 - which will be hugely expensive to operate per unit since much of the costs are relatively fixed. Ofcourse should the price tag prove to be too much, other airplanes can be considered - though that's perhaps not an option since these manufactors will have scaled their operations under the impression of a smaller market.
And in my oppinion this is why you don't get tangible price estimates out of LM - they want to keep the bowl stiring - and suffocate the competitors.
Fer ferks sake that Dutch piece is a hack job - amateur hour - an epic fail. He doesn't understand the numbers, their background. He's unable to pass reasoned judgement based on knowledge, context and history of the source... a petty conspiracy theorist.

Will tear it apart when I have the time - sometime tomorrow. Have a job y'know. ;)
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Fer ferks sake that Dutch piece is a hack job - amateur hour - an epic fail. He doesn't understand the numbers, their background. He's unable to pass reasoned judgement based on knowledge, context and history of the source... a petty conspiracy theorist.

Will tear it apart when I have the time - sometime tomorrow.
quit the dutch guy, he doesn't interest me. Instead give me tangible estimates of the price of the F35, in different sales scenarios.


Have a job y'know. ;)
Yeah maybe I should return to my modelling of, funny enough, absence of workers at f_____styrelsen :eek:
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
quit the dutch guy, he doesn't interest me. Instead give me tangible estimates of the price of the F35, in different sales scenarios.




Yeah maybe I should return to my modelling of, funny enough, absence of workers at f_____styrelsen :eek:
The Dutch guy is the source of what you wrote, not only that but you make a lot of allegations based on this, and now you want me to ignore him?!

And I dont work at f__styrelsen, if that's what you insinuate.
 
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B3LA

Banned Member
Well...If you're worried over the future exchange rates, buy the Eurofighter :p:

Nobody knows of course, but it would seem that the US$ steadily looses it's importance globally.
If the oil producers abandons it (as the rumour say that they have discussed ), the only key players
who wants to keep it up will be the Chinese and those the US have borrowed money from.

The Americans themselves are not that interested in keeping it up. They want to print more of them instead.
Their current deficit and their immediate bleak future, their huge international loan burden points to that
the US$ will stay reasonable low for a longer period of time.

That is a good thing for all F-35 partners.
 
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