Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Salty Dog]

Thanks for the inputs guys, i knew my comments about the SHornets were a long way off

Also SD does that mean that the pilots who are in russia training on the Mig-29Ks have already done some training on the T-45 Goshaw, also wouldnt training on CATOBAR ops affect STOBAR op requirements ?

The IN pilots that completed the intermediate and advanced carrier pilot syllabus with the USN flew the T-45.

As far as transition from CATOBAR to STOBAR, IMHO this should be done with no significant problems, however there are some considerations:
- These are rookie pilots with a low number of traps and launches making transition far more challenging.
- USN pilots have the advantage of the Instrument Carrier Landing System (ICLS) and Automatic Carrier Landing System (ACLS) as well as the traditional Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System (FLOS), "meatball". I have no idea what the Russian carriers use.
- The glide slope is probably different on the Russian carriers as well as the OLS. It would be nice for the IN if these are the same for the Kuznetsov and the Vikramaditya.
- Approaches and landings are far more critical than take offs and this will no doubt require numerous practice approaches both at the airfield and the carrier.

 

[Hindustan]

The IN pilots that completed the intermediate and advanced carrier pilot syllabus with the USN flew the T-45.

As far as transition from CATOBAR to STOBAR, IMHO this should be done with no significant problems, however there are some considerations:
- These are rookie pilots with a low number of traps and launches making transition far more challenging.
- USN pilots have the advantage of the Instrument Carrier Landing System (ICLS) and Automatic Carrier Landing System (ACLS) as well as the traditional Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System (FLOS), "meatball". I have no idea what the Russian carriers use.
- The glide slope is probably different on the Russian carriers as well as the OLS. It would be nice for the IN if these are the same for the Kuznetsov and the Vikramaditya.
- Approaches and landings are far more critical than take offs and this will no doubt require numerous practice approaches both at the airfield and the carrier.

well i agree to the point that landings are very crucial as compared to the take offs.
there are many incidences in USN itself that a pilot had a bad landing on the aircraft carrier and even bad crashes are seen whenn pilots can not judge the up and down movement of the carrier due to the waves in the sea and the end up hitting the carrier or missing the cables.
TRUE.

 

[shag]

Sorry to dissapoint you but that does not mean anything for the MMRCA deal directly. The training is done on T-45 Goshaw which is a trainer aircraft highly similar to and derived from BAE Hawks. Besides the MMRCA is for the Air Force not the navy. So even FA-18 trained navy pilots wont help it in any deals for the air force's MMRCA.

A friend(also an admin at indian-military.org) visited the Base at kingsville and took these pics of the training for Indian Navy Pilots with USN on the T-45 Goshawk.

Indian Military Database - IM.org EXCLUSIVE - Admin's visit to VT-21 "Fighting Redhawks" at US Naval Air Station,Kingsville, TX - Indian Military Blog - Reports

Indian Military Database - IM.org EXCLUSIVE - Additional Pictures from US NAS, Kingsville, TX - Navy - Reports

enjoy!

 

[Manminder]

aa its depend on what kind of aircraft carriers are . i think indian navy must have 1 heavy AC ( such as like KITTY Hawk Of USN ) . As far as i know Adm. Gorshkov will have 12~16 Mig 29's.

no i dont think so Indian needs Such a heavy class aircraft carrier, first india should backup its security the only they can go for such big decisions of having Kitty Hawk Class.........................right now steps being taken by Indian Navy is Correct!

 

[dragonfire]

The Indian Nay is planning to acquire Midget submarines for the MARCOS commandos. It is supposed to be in the 150 tonne class confused any ideas anyone what are the global choices avaiilable with India. Also the subs are going to be constructed in Indian Shipyards does anyone know if the Naval Design Directorate/bureau is involved in this, if yes to what extent ?. The eventual order could be in 2 digits

 

[kato]

The Italian "Cosmos" company is about the only one on that market right now. If we don't count North Korea.
Iirc Cosmos had a slightly larger MG110 derived vessel in its portfolio. Offhand their last sale was something like 10-15 years ago.

 

[Salty Dog]

The Indian Nay is planning to acquire Midget submarines for the MARCOS commandos. It is supposed to be in the 150 tonne class confused any ideas anyone what are the global choices avaiilable with India. Also the subs are going to be constructed in Indian Shipyards does anyone know if the Naval Design Directorate/bureau is involved in this, if yes to what extent ?. The eventual order could be in 2 digits

Midget submarines for commando use are normally operated from "mother ships". What are the IN plans for mother ships?

 

[dragonfire]

The Italian "Cosmos" company is about the only one on that market right now. If we don't count North Korea.
Iirc Cosmos had a slightly larger MG110 derived vessel in its portfolio. Offhand their last sale was something like 10-15 years ago.

Indian Navy had acquired eleven Cosmos CE-2F/X100 Midget Submarines in 1990. But this model is not an enclosed one and is a two man sub. In fact pictures of it show a bright green colored one, so i doubt the real time use is nothign more than for training purposes. Do you have any write ups on the MG110.

Midget submarines for commando use are normally operated from "mother ships". What are the IN plans for mother ships?

Am not sure how this is going to work with the IN, I dont think the range of subs India operates currently can accomadate these subs without undergoing significant upgrades. No plans for the same have been announced. Can the Kilo class subs with India able to opeate these, if not some of the under construction destroyers or scorpene subs can be outfitted for the same apart from which maybe the ACs and the INS JalAshwa

 

[kay_man]

Indian Navy had acquired eleven Cosmos CE-2F/X100 Midget Submarines in 1990. But this model is not an enclosed one and is a two man sub. In fact pictures of it show a bright green colored one, so i doubt the real time use is nothign more than for training purposes. Do you have any write ups on the MG110.



Am not sure how this is going to work with the IN, I dont think the range of subs India operates currently can accomadate these subs without undergoing significant upgrades. No plans for the same have been announced. Can the Kilo class subs with India able to opeate these, if not some of the under construction destroyers or scorpene subs can be outfitted for the same apart from which maybe the ACs and the INS JalAshwa

the jalashwa /trenton is a very old bird........modifying it to handle a mini sub may not be wise.....same story with india's submarine arm (kilos etc.)
maybe the scorpenes can be modified...

the best case would be to use a ballistic missile sub as a mother ship.....eg. INS Arihant

 

[gf0012-aust]

the best case would be to use a ballistic missile sub as a mother ship.....eg. INS Arihant

you wouldn't normally even attempt to launch a mini from another sub unless it was built for it - or was an ex boomer, there are too many issues with balancing and config etc... a nuke modified to carry a mini will be pretty obvious in its design even if photographed without the package

most small subs are launched by skimmers with well decks if done at sea.

 

[dragonfire]

you wouldn't normally even attempt to launch a mini from another sub unless it was built for it - or was an ex boomer, there are too many issues with balancing and config etc... a nuke modified to carry a mini will be pretty obvious in its design even if photographed without the package

most small subs are launched by skimmers with well decks if done at sea.

Not many IN assets have the well decks to accomadate a 150 ton sub, i thknk INS JalAshwa could do it without too many modifications, although tht would not be the ideal choice as it is a LPD. The choice would be nuclear submarines. Perhaps the newly under design SSN classes could be designed keeping tht requirement in mind.. Would a SSBN be a better choice than an SSN

 

[riksavage]

Not many IN assets have the well decks to accomadate a 150 ton sub, i thknk INS JalAshwa could do it without too many modifications, although tht would not be the ideal choice as it is a LPD. The choice would be nuclear submarines. Perhaps the newly under design SSN classes could be designed keeping tht requirement in mind.. Would a SSBN be a better choice than an SSN

More likely the Indian SF will 'walk before they can run' and invest in wet SDV's used by most credible water operators today. These are normally housed on deck behind the sail allowing the combat swimmers easy access from the airlock or are located in a dry hanger (USN coverted SSBN's). These subs are capable of carrying a small team of divers plus kit..

One of the reaons why the new Astute Class has such a large sail and flat deck is I suspect related to such deployments. Previous lessons learnt from T-Class SF deployments would have influenced the design.

The Indians may decide to take a leap of faith and go for one of these:

Sea Dagger Special Operations Submarines - Naval Technology

I seriously doubt they would consider deploying SF from an operational ballistic missile submarine, it would require the vessel to deviate from its pre-designated patrol pattern to deploy water operators in potentially a littoral environment. No one in their right mind would risk their boomers to let-slip a few SF. This sort of activity is definitely confined to SSN's or deactivated SSBN's, which no longer host intercontinental ballistic missiles (replaced by tac-tom silos).

 

[shag]

you wouldn't normally even attempt to launch a mini from another sub unless it was built for it - or was an ex boomer, there are too many issues with balancing and config etc... a nuke modified to carry a mini will be pretty obvious in its design even if photographed without the package

most small subs are launched by skimmers with well decks if done at sea.

I agree with gf0012-aust on the deployment of midgets. I am not aware of any training going on in midget subs by indian navy for regular units. The midget subs are mostly used by marcos units, their operations are always classified. but historically midget subs were used in one of our operations against LTTE when a marcos unit infiltrated the LTTE port and blew up some of their boats.
Funny story about that operation, they came back again the next day and blew up some more boats. .

 

[Salty Dog]

Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft

The Ministry of Defence and industry sources indicate that the RFI, issued recently, is of a 'generic' nature, looking for newer platforms and airborne technologies and what is on offer from some of the well-known manufacturers. The US Boeing and French Dassault have confirmed receipt of the RFI for their respective F18 Super Hornet and Rafale.

With new generation aircraft carriers, Mig-29K and, N-LCA yet to be inducted, the IN is looking at next generation fighter aircraft for their carrier decks. The Mig-29K is a given, so I just have to wonder if this will be the death axe for N-LCA.

 

[harryriedl]

Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft



With new generation aircraft carriers, Mig-29K and, N-LCA yet to be inducted, the IN is looking at next generation fighter aircraft for their carrier decks. The Mig-29K is a given, so I just have to wonder if this will be the death axe for N-LCA.

Dose that mean Cats could be ordered as it doesn't seem much point use a Super or Raf with a light AtoA to get them off the deck in STOBAR. When they can carry lots of stuff

 

[Salty Dog]

Dose that mean Cats could be ordered as it doesn't seem much point use a Super or Raf with a light AtoA to get them off the deck in STOBAR. When they can carry lots of stuff

It would make sense for the IN to have CATOBAR should it be serious about operating the Rhino or Rafale.

 

[shag]

It would make sense for the IN to have CATOBAR should it be serious about operating the Rhino or Rafale.

Recent new reports suggest IN has expressed interest in one of the brit super carriers under construction. the speculation is pre mature but it may point to something.
Royal Navy aircraft carrier may be sold to India

 

[shag]

here is another quote on those carriers.

"The carrier will be fitted with a ski-jump ramp, but provision will be made to adapt the the flight deck for fixed wing planes with a catapult launch and arrestor recovery system should the UK choose to operate the conventional F-35C or an Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) similar to the X-47 Pegasus."

 

[dragonfire]

More likely the Indian SF will 'walk before they can run' and invest in wet SDV's used by most credible water operators today. These are normally housed on deck behind the sail allowing the combat swimmers easy access from the airlock or are located in a dry hanger (USN coverted SSBN's). These subs are capable of carrying a small team of divers plus kit..

Thanks for the inputs riksavage,

The IN already operates a wet submersible - Indian Navy had acquired eleven Cosmos CE-2F/X100 Midget Submarines in 1990. This is used by the IN SF - MARCOS, however this submersible is not on the lines of the SDV in that it can accomadate only two divers, and more imp the IN has announced its plan to acquire midget subs in 150 ton class

One of the reaons why the new Astute Class has such a large sail and flat deck is I suspect related to such deployments. Previous lessons learnt from T-Class SF deployments would have influenced the design.

Does the Royal Navy currently operate any midget submarines. The Virginia class is designed keeping in mind the requirements of deploying Advanced SEAL Delivery System, whereas the LA class had to be modified for deployment. The ASDS is as per wiki about 60 tons, and yet can deliver 16 SEALs and has two crew, wonder what the IN wants, maybe some torpedoe tubes !

The Indians may decide to take a leap of faith and go for one of these:

Sea Dagger Special Operations Submarines - Naval Technology

Again this not in the same tonnage required by the IN, which requires 150 ton subs whereas the Sea Dagger 50 to 72 tons

I seriously doubt they would consider deploying SF from an operational ballistic missile submarine, it would require the vessel to deviate from its pre-designated patrol pattern to deploy water operators in potentially a littoral environment. No one in their right mind would risk their boomers to let-slip a few SF. This sort of activity is definitely confined to SSN's or deactivated SSBN's, which no longer host intercontinental ballistic missiles (replaced by tac-tom silos).

IN is in the process of acquiring a second line of conventional subs, maybe it can be designed/modified to accomadate the midget submarines or else it would be the job of the under-design indigenious SSN class. India doesnt have any operational SSBN, the INS Arihant was just launched, i doubt it should be used for launching the midget submarines (as suggested by you), becasue the SSBNs will be part of the Operational Triad of the Nuclear Deterrence policy of India

 

[gf0012-aust]

I seriously doubt they would consider deploying SF from an operational ballistic missile submarine, it would require the vessel to deviate from its pre-designated patrol pattern to deploy water operators in potentially a littoral environment. No one in their right mind would risk their boomers to let-slip a few SF. This sort of activity is definitely confined to SSN's or deactivated SSBN's, which no longer host intercontinental ballistic missiles (replaced by tac-tom silos).

It's been done before and its done today. SF are deployed in whatever asset has the utility and availability for the requirement at a given point in time.

The US deployed assets like Parche as a keel scraping level during the cold war. they physically entered soviet harbours and tapped harbour located comms cables. Parche received a number of Presidential citations for this kind of work.

The truck in trade for SF is a sub - any sub. Nukes - esp SSBN's have substantial capacity for extra non standard guests. When they deploy it is the mission set which determines how far they go and what they do, so (eg) SF taxi runs don't need the same food support (which is what clutters up the spaces) (eg) sprint compared to long run to do a specific "job."

The Israelis deploy full teams in small conventionals, so the carriage opportunities (not just bodies) that a nuke brings to the table are significant. - esp boomers if and when the need arises.