Royal New Zealand Air Force

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Advanced air-training (B200 replacement) on hold pending defence review

I see the B200 replacement is on hold pending defence review (see link below). While on the face of it that may seem logical, I don't think it is that logical!?!

Their replacements are needed to allow a step-up in training to cope with all the new 'glass cockpit' aircraft due in the next few years. None of those 'glass' aircraft (C-130; P3-K2; NH-90; AW109 etc) is seriously threatened by the review, so why hold off the B200 replacement?

Firstly, it's clear the Govt will NOT now be considering retention of the Macchis for this role - so count that out! So why - is it purely beaureacracy or could it suggest a larger aircraft could be added to the mix?

Fact is we won't know until the review is published. Remember also that we're unlikely to see any significant new big ticket purchases in the short-term.

Advanced Pilot Training Capability [Ministry of Defence NZ]
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I see the B200 replacement is on hold pending defence review (see link below). While on the face of it that may seem logical, I don't think it is that logical!?!

Their replacements are needed to allow a step-up in training to cope with all the new 'glass cockpit' aircraft due in the next few years. None of those 'glass' aircraft (C-130; P3-K2; NH-90; AW109 etc) is seriously threatened by the review, so why hold off the B200 replacement?

Firstly, it's clear the Govt will NOT now be considering retention of the Macchis for this role - so count that out! So why - is it purely beaureacracy or could it suggest a larger aircraft could be added to the mix?

Fact is we won't know until the review is published. Remember also that we're unlikely to see any significant new big ticket purchases in the short-term.

Advanced Pilot Training Capability [Ministry of Defence NZ]
Well spotted Mr Gibbo.

Those poor old Macchi’s flew for the last time 10 days ago. The renegotiation between a buyer and the ministry is currently on. If the buyer can raise a respectable amount of cold hard cash the deal is on. One thing is clear is that this may well be the ministries last chance to make a sale. I’m afraid they could end up as hanger queens for a very long time.

When you consider that Air NZ bought 14 more A320’s today because they believe that it is a buyers’ market out there for aircraft, your point about getting on with the job makes proper sense. We have a fairly high dollar historically and the market for aircraft sales is globally depressed. So its Rob Fyfe for DefSec eh? ;) Then we might get some action.
 

liquidpain

New Member
Good day everyone,

I have a few questions that i would like to ask to people who are in the nz airforce or was at some point.

How many hours a year does an average airforce pilot get? fixed wing/choppers
Does the paygrade differ for different aircraft? ie b757 or c-130
 

fixdeluxe1

Banned Member
Stuff is reporting a 200 million dollar blow out in the budget. Cabinet is considering options, including not buying spares.

Only 6 Training Helicopters are authorised to be purchased.

Full Article here...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3735059a6160,00.html
We have a stupid right-wing idiotic government in power.Not much better than Helen Clark.What we need is a Domestic Arms industry to produce ammunition and small arms.

But in terms of air power,NZ is heavily lagging behind the rest of the World.It's because Helen Clark wanted NZ's military to be a useless unarmed UN peacekeeping force rather than a Military Force.Why in the sane world would we buy x105 NZLAV's when we already had adequete APC's and IFV's.The Army does not need anything much at the momment just more troops and More GUNS!!!(Attilery pieces,a few tanks etc)

I recomend increasing the Defence Budget by eliminating tax breaks for privatley owned companies.Then Nationalising the Telecommunications industry and the Electricity Industry.
This would allow huge swaths of revenue to come from the capitalist's pockets into everybody else's pockets,including the long overdrafted government coffers.

We should then look at purchasing some Fighter-Bombers and Attack-Transport Helicopters from different scources like China,Russia,India & the US.Here Are my recommendations:

F-15E-Allows for Air-to-Air combat and Air-to-Ground & Surface attack.
F-35-Expensive but comes with advanced tech like limited stealth and HUD
MiG-29-Old,maybe outdated but cheap and can be modified for basic Air Defences and CAS
Apache Gunship-Exellent for CAS and Ground Support.
Mi-24 Hind-Proven Against Afghan Insurgents(But Downed by stingers)
Su-35-Brand Spanking new russian hotshot.

Just my personal opinion but then again,I don't like a NZ where we can be mercilessly bombed into oblivion.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I make no comment on your personal political views.

Here Are my recommendations:

F-15E-Allows for Air-to-Air combat and Air-to-Ground & Surface attack.
F-35-Expensive but comes with advanced tech like limited stealth and HUD
MiG-29-Old,maybe outdated but cheap and can be modified for basic Air Defences and CAS
Apache Gunship-Exellent for CAS and Ground Support.
Mi-24 Hind-Proven Against Afghan Insurgents(But Downed by stingers)
Su-35-Brand Spanking new russian hotshot.

Just my personal opinion but then again,I don't like a NZ where we can be mercilessly bombed into oblivion.
Below par and disappointing contribution to the thread (in terms of workable recommendations that is in any shape or form that is considered fiscally responsible). Please read up and think through what you are saying, if you want to be taken seriously. BTW, IIRC NZ was offered F-16s under a lease agreement (with an option to buy) by the former Clinton administration and NZ said no.

Sorry about being a bit overbearing but have you read up on Malaysia's problems with maintaining a mixed fleet of East and West air combat aircraft in the RMAF thread? In that thread, both gf0012-aust (#1110) and Dzirhan (post #1114) have said that with the Sukhois, support, training and logistics has been a massive wrangle between the Malaysians and Russians. Further, the Malaysians are looking to retire their Mig-29s. Operating a mixed fleet of air combat aircraft from both eastern and western countries is a big logistic problem and should not be undertaken in concept unless a country has no other choice. Kindly also see my prior response on this topic in another thread here (post #14).

Do you really want to respond to Lucasnz with this sort of fluff before doing a bit a reading? Keeping in mind that Lucasnz is consistently lucid and insightful in his posts. IMHO, you can read up a bit more to avoid thread pollution.
 
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fixdeluxe1

Banned Member
Thank you for your reply.

All I was stating was my opinion and different sources we could acquire the aircraft from.
I didn't say get Russian AND American aircraft,I am just saying they could both be suppliers.New Zealand needs air-combat capability,as does any modern military.NZ is not just a Peacekeeping and Search + Rescue force,it's a "Defence Force" including Air Defence.If all we have is Mistral's and a few old Ship-Mounted AA guns,we have no chance of anything comparable to other nations,Fiji could even surpass us.That's how dire the state the NZDF is in,especially the RNZAF.

Western Aircraft and Eastern Aircraft are both as good quality as each other.

As the whole thing,my comment/reply was not pollution obviously you do not know I studied and graduated from USMA at Westpoint.Virginia.Then I moved to New Zealand and like contributing to DefenceTalk because I believe it's sharing and promoting military knowledge.

Finance is only a Minor problem,just skull the Useless P-3K Orions and I didn't say purchase all the Aircraft I have suggested,just some of them.Use the money from the sold and forgotten P-3K Orions to finance the thing.After all I am not saying purchase 1,000,000 of each unit,just a few(Less than 50).

Hope this was usefull.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Thank you for your reply.

All I was stating was my opinion and different sources we could acquire the aircraft from.
I didn't say get Russian AND American aircraft,I am just saying they could both be suppliers.New Zealand needs air-combat capability,as does any modern military.NZ is not just a Peacekeeping and Search + Rescue force,it's a "Defence Force" including Air Defence.If all we have is Mistral's and a few old Ship-Mounted AA guns,we have no chance of anything comparable to other nations,Fiji could even surpass us.That's how dire the state the NZDF is in,especially the RNZAF.
Tell that to your politicians. Oh, and the ESSM system your ANZAC's will hopefully get upgraded with is a lot more then "a few old ship-mounted AA guns".

Western Aircraft and Eastern Aircraft are both as good quality as each other.
Yes and no.
Western Aircraft tend to be designed to have a longer fatigue life for the airframe. Western Aircraft tend to be more expensive to purchase, but much less expensive to maintain in service. Western Aircraft tend to be more technologically advanced.

As the whole thing,my comment/reply was not pollution obviously you do not know I studied and graduated from USMA at Westpoint.Virginia.Then I moved to New Zealand and like contributing to DefenceTalk because I believe it's sharing and promoting military knowledge.
Are you sure you want to say that? Your spelling and grammar leave a lot to be desired.

Finance is only a Minor problem,just skull the Useless P-3K Orions and I didn't say purchase all the Aircraft I have suggested,just some of them.Use the money from the sold and forgotten P-3K Orions to finance the thing.After all I am not saying purchase 1,000,000 of each unit,just a few(Less than 50).

Hope this was usefull.
The P-3K's are quite useful for NZ, they give NZ a maritime surveillance capability they would not otherwise have. Plus when equiped with anti-ship missiles or anti-submarine torpedoes they are quite a potent maritime strike force.

Regards,
Stephen
 

fixdeluxe1

Banned Member
Thank you for the prompt reply.

I do believe that your right in terms of the fact our politicians need to be "TALKED TO".

As for everything else,it sound like keeping the New Zealand Defence Force as a Peacekeeping Force.Yes I am sure I want to say that,I would like to know if you have any military service history.I served 3 years as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 10th Mountain Division before moving to New Zealand.

Kind Regards
Fixdeluxe1

Mod edit: Ban instituted for having made a claim of service not supportable with the poster information. It is against DT rules for users to make up claims of service, and is not tolerated.
-Preceptor
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
So you're advocating the acquisition of Hind helicopters for New Zealand, possibly at the expense of the P-3 Orions, which are "useless", as you put it.

Are you serious?
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Thank you for the prompt reply.

I do believe that your right in terms of the fact our politicians need to be "TALKED TO".

As for everything else,it sound like keeping the New Zealand Defence Force as a Peacekeeping Force.Yes I am sure I want to say that,I would like to know if you have any military service history.I served 3 years as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 10th Mountain Division before moving to New Zealand.

Kind Regards
Fixdeluxe1
You just said you were born in 1987, right? That makes you 21-22. Three years as a 2nd Lieutenant takes that to 18-19. Minimum age for West Point is 17. West Point is two years or three?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
You just said you were born in 1987, right? That makes you 21-22. Three years as a 2nd Lieutenant takes that to 18-19. Minimum age for West Point is 17. West Point is two years or three?
Stephen and Bonza, he hasn't quite figured out what the colours of the respective 'handles' mean (and I believe he does not understand some of the matters discussed). IMHO, he has not read the rules of the forum and we should wait for the Mods to respond to his claims - he has done enough to hang himself.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thread re-opened.

Note for all.

If you are going to claim professional status or prior service then ask the Mods before going public.

There is zero tolerance for people claiming professionalism or prior capability when its apparent that they don't.
 
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Some of the contributors such as fixdeluxe1 obviously live in a fantasy world.
Even if NZ could have a huge defence budget the RNZAF wouldn't buy huge fleets of fighter aircraft because where is the threat from?
I feel there is a case for a squadron of aircraft with a maritime strike capabilities to product New Zealands exclusive economic zone and to help train the navy and army to work with fast jets.
If NZ did have a decent strike force for that force to be credible the air force would need a large fleet of tankers and extra transport aircraft to support operations - look how the RAF struggles in Afghanistan with all their resources.
What is achieveable is for NZ to operate aircraft with a limited strike capability, decent MR aircraft, and a decent fleet of fixed wing and rotary transports to support the navy and army around the world plus the civil authorities.
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Since New Zealand is so far away from any land based air forces, any air threat to New Zealand would be carrier aircraft. A modest maritime strike force should be able to deter a carrier, sink or damage the carrier and the air threat mostly disappears.

On the other hand refueled aircraft flying very long distances can reach and bomb New Zealand. A modest deployment of allied fighter aircraft could set up shop in New Zealand to deter this. The same can be said of any carrier threat as well in a large regional or world war.

I still am of the belief if New Zealand acquired a air combat force, small trainer/fighters armed with maritime strike weapons and as interceptors can hold the line until allied help arrives. New Zealand doesn't require expensive front line fighters.

Considering New Zealand's contributions in past wars, and on good terms with Australia and others, one wonders whether any air combat force is required since there really isn't any threat. If a threat develops, New Zealand can acquire or open their nation to allied air forces. The situation isn't much different than New Zealand's neighboring Pacific island nations to their north.

The issue of whether New Zealand acquires a small modest air combat force deals with affordability and sustainability. Unless New Zealand significantly increases their defense budget neither is in the picture.
 
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regstrup

Member
I have to agree with Sea Toby on this one. Now NZ has lost it combat and fighter capabilities, and there are cheaper and better ways to defend NZ, than to reacquired a air combat force with strike and fighter capabilities. In my opinion NZ needs to protect the seas around it.

That can by done with maritime patrol aircrafts armed with ASM like P-8 Posiedon and one or two extra frigates. It would need an increase in the defence budget, but it will be much more realistic with the corrent political climat in NZ towards defence and still give a feasible defence.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The possesion of air combat aircraft by the RNZAF has since the 1950's never been considered for the defence of New Zeraland in the context of direct invasion.

It is not about defending our shores from some sort of mythical peril. Some sort of Battle of New Zealand thing. :rolleyes:

The acquistition brief of ACDRE Frank Gill when he went up to the US in 1969 to look at the candidate aircraft for 75 Squadron was for an aircraft capable of close air support and an interdiction role for our then SE Asian based Battalion. It was believed that the main strike aircraft we had in the 1960's the 12 Canberra tactical bombers were not suitable (The Vampires were trainers by this time - we had to lease Venoms for Malaya then the Canberra's arrived in 1959 I think). Thus we got the A-4 in 1970. It was just 10 single seaters and 4 of the T model. Fourteen was regarded as sufficent. The A-4 being such great little aircraft it was 'multi-role' even before such fancy words were used to describe the variety of things it could do. Later - post the Kahu upgrade and the increase of the ex RAN A-4's we got into the Anti-Ship business and shined in the role. It was a role we could offer the allies and friends in the region as something a little extra on offer - and they were world respected for it.

But the point is and will always be Air Combat capability in the context of the RNZAF is not about defending New Zealand from mythical peril. Invasions from bloodly aircraft carriers and such nonsense. Stripping back all the crap that gets thrown around on this subject - New Zealands needs were and are still modest in terms of an air combat capability.

Fourteen cheap modern aircraft that can do CAS, interdiction and anti-ship. That is all we are talking about. There are only two aircraft in this market segment if you could call it that - the M-346 or the F/A-50. Note modern and cheap - so obviously the Hawk does not cut it as they found out in the UAE. I have revealed my preference on a prior occassion in detail but will mention again that the F/A-50 is what the NZDF needs imo. The F/A is essentially the T/A version with an upgraded radar and Link 16 capability.

One thing to note is that the last time NZ deployed elements of the ACF and an infantry Battalion together was in Borneo in the mid 1960's when the RNZAF deployed six Canberra's. It was felt that the deployment of a flight of 6 aircraft was suitable to support combat operations by a NZ Battalion. The Quigley review thought the original F-16 deal was too many aircraft I think they recommemended 14-16 airframes was sufficent.

The reason why we don't have an air combat force is because one very powerful politician who thought she knew better had wanted it gone - Recce is right on that. She had waited 29 years to commit her coup de grace - take her symbolic venegance. For National it was a political trainwreck. National should have realised it was going out of office in 99 sped up delivery of the first tranche of F-16B's into New Zealand and given Helen Clark the biggest political dead rat she had to swallow. If they had managed to deliver six to eight F-16's on the Ohakea flightline by the November 1999 election then she would have had no political room for manouver with the Clinton Administration and US State department. She was able to reject the F-16's because they had not started deliveries to the RNZAF. If they had started to deliver them she could not have backed out and returned them to AMARC- she would not have dared risked it.

Affordability is something that gets thrown around. Is a modest yet modern second tier CAS/INT/A-Shp capability affordable? One of the price targets of the F/A-50 (and I am going on what an informed Korean has told me after I told him to do some digging in the Korea language) is an under 30 Billion Won flyaway unit price or around NZ$35.7m - about a third more than the baseline T-50 AJT. Another thing we know from the Quigley review is that 22 F-16's and 17 MB-339's were going to cost us NZ$150 million per annum to operate and another $60m in lease costs and upgrade payments. This was pretty much the same as the 19 A-4's and 17 Macchis budgeted for in their last year, of which the A-4's cost $90m. Also 14 Sqd's 17 Macchi's was 40% of the ACF operational cost at $60 million per annum, including a wage bill for 63 groundies & 21 pilots, 4500 flight hours and fixed Sqd costs $6.7m. Whatever way you slice and dice it 14 new F/A-50's would be somewhat less to operate than $150m p.a. Maybe $75m all up would be feasible in the context of post 2010. If my trusty calculator is working properly 35.7 x 14 is 499.8. So is $499.8m affordable? Is $75m p.a affordable?
Frankly we dont need F-16 Block 60's at double/triple the cost or that level of capability.

And that $499.8m payment would be spread out over a number of years. Im pretty sure between, Treasury, the Reserve Bank and John Key's moneyworld contacts a 10 year finance spread could be sorted out. So could we afford $50 million a year to pay for these things? It is less than what we spend on 1 day of welfare ($53m).

Can we afford the $75m operating costs on top of this? Thus $125m p.a in total? Of course - that is millions less than the nonsense called the capital charge the NZDF has to pay back each year! Two and a half days of welfare or let me put it another way about a 6.6% increase in current gross defence spending or even better still - $100 a year or $2 a week or 30cents a day in extra taxes for every working adult taxpayer between 18-65. How about less than 8 cents a day for every man woman and child? Can NZer's afford 14 F/A-50 aircraft at 8c a day? Its a no brainer!
 

regstrup

Member
Thanks for all the background information about the ACF :)

Of course NZ can afford the ACF. The problem is, that the politicians don't want to pay to reinstate it again, because there are no votes in it.

But I stille think, that NZ will get more defence for the dollar (also internationally and politically) to invest the extra money in increasing the number of combat units in the navy and getting newer and better transportplanes and maritime patrol aircrafts.

NZ is a small country and there is no need to have minimized superpower defence. It is better to increase the good capabilities they already have.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
The possesion of air combat aircraft by the RNZAF has since the 1950's never been considered for the defence of New Zeraland in the context of direct invasion.

It is not about defending our shores from some sort of mythical peril. Some sort of Battle of New Zealand thing. :rolleyes:

The acquistition brief of ACDRE Frank Gill when he went up to the US in 1969 to look at the candidate aircraft for 75 Squadron was for an aircraft capable of close air support and an interdiction role for our then SE Asian based Battalion. It was believed that the main strike aircraft we had in the 1960's the 12 Canberra tactical bombers were not suitable (The Vampires were trainers by this time - we had to lease Venoms for Malaya then the Canberra's arrived in 1959 I think). Thus we got the A-4 in 1970. It was just 10 single seaters and 4 of the T model. Fourteen was regarded as sufficent. The A-4 being such great little aircraft it was 'multi-role' even before such fancy words were used to describe the variety of things it could do. Later - post the Kahu upgrade and the increase of the ex RAN A-4's we got into the Anti-Ship business and shined in the role. It was a role we could offer the allies and friends in the region as something a little extra on offer - and they were world respected for it.

But the point is and will always be Air Combat capability in the context of the RNZAF is not about defending New Zealand from mythical peril. Invasions from bloodly aircraft carriers and such nonsense. Stripping back all the crap that gets thrown around on this subject - New Zealands needs were and are still modest in terms of an air combat capability.

Fourteen cheap modern aircraft that can do CAS, interdiction and anti-ship. That is all we are talking about. There are only two aircraft in this market segment if you could call it that - the M-346 or the F/A-50. Note modern and cheap - so obviously the Hawk does not cut it as they found out in the UAE. I have revealed my preference on a prior occassion in detail but will mention again that the F/A-50 is what the NZDF needs imo. The F/A is essentially the T/A version with an upgraded radar and Link 16 capability.

One thing to note is that the last time NZ deployed elements of the ACF and an infantry Battalion together was in Borneo in the mid 1960's when the RNZAF deployed six Canberra's. It was felt that the deployment of a flight of 6 aircraft was suitable to support combat operations by a NZ Battalion. The Quigley review thought the original F-16 deal was too many aircraft I think they recommemended 14-16 airframes was sufficent.

The reason why we don't have an air combat force is because one very powerful politician who thought she knew better had wanted it gone - Recce is right on that. She had waited 29 years to commit her coup de grace - take her symbolic venegance. For National it was a political trainwreck. National should have realised it was going out of office in 99 sped up delivery of the first tranche of F-16B's into New Zealand and given Helen Clark the biggest political dead rat she had to swallow. If they had managed to deliver six to eight F-16's on the Ohakea flightline by the November 1999 election then she would have had no political room for manouver with the Clinton Administration and US State department. She was able to reject the F-16's because they had not started deliveries to the RNZAF. If they had started to deliver them she could not have backed out and returned them to AMARC- she would not have dared risked it.

Affordability is something that gets thrown around. Is a modest yet modern second tier CAS/INT/A-Shp capability affordable? One of the price targets of the F/A-50 (and I am going on what an informed Korean has told me after I told him to do some digging in the Korea language) is an under 30 Billion Won flyaway unit price or around NZ$35.7m - about a third more than the baseline T-50 AJT. Another thing we know from the Quigley review is that 22 F-16's and 17 MB-339's were going to cost us NZ$150 million per annum to operate and another $60m in lease costs and upgrade payments. This was pretty much the same as the 19 A-4's and 17 Macchis budgeted for in their last year, of which the A-4's cost $90m. Also 14 Sqd's 17 Macchi's was 40% of the ACF operational cost at $60 million per annum, including a wage bill for 63 groundies & 21 pilots, 4500 flight hours and fixed Sqd costs $6.7m. Whatever way you slice and dice it 14 new F/A-50's would be somewhat less to operate than $150m p.a. Maybe $75m all up would be feasible in the context of post 2010. If my trusty calculator is working properly 35.7 x 14 is 499.8. So is $499.8m affordable? Is $75m p.a affordable?
Frankly we dont need F-16 Block 60's at double/triple the cost or that level of capability.

And that $499.8m payment would be spread out over a number of years. Im pretty sure between, Treasury, the Reserve Bank and John Key's moneyworld contacts a 10 year finance spread could be sorted out. So could we afford $50 million a year to pay for these things? It is less than what we spend on 1 day of welfare ($53m).

Can we afford the $75m operating costs on top of this? Thus $125m p.a in total? Of course - that is millions less than the nonsense called the capital charge the NZDF has to pay back each year! Two and a half days of welfare or let me put it another way about a 6.6% increase in current gross defence spending or even better still - $100 a year or $2 a week or 30cents a day in extra taxes for every working adult taxpayer between 18-65. How about less than 8 cents a day for every man woman and child? Can NZer's afford 14 F/A-50 aircraft at 8c a day? Its a no brainer!

could the BAE Hawk be used in a cas role?
The hawk has a centre line gun pod and has 2 hard point's for misslie admitily it was for sidewinder.i don't know if they could be used for air to ground or not.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I found some info for the above question.

[edit] Hawk 200
The Hawk 200 is a single seat, lightweight multirole combat fighter with emphasis on air defence, air superiority, anti-shipping, air-denial, long-range interdiction, short-range close air support and ground attack. The aircraft is fitted with the AN/APG-66H, an advanced version of the F-16A APG-66 radar with multimode systems. The aircraft is able to be equipped with the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AGM-65 Maverick


Maybe a dozen of these might be afordable,multi role it's not an f35 but could be right up NZ alley.
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I found some info for the above question.

[edit] Hawk 200
The Hawk 200 is a single seat, lightweight multirole combat fighter with emphasis on air defence, air superiority, anti-shipping, air-denial, long-range interdiction, short-range close air support and ground attack. .
I love marketing blurb... Surely when you place an emphasis on one role, it is pretty difficult to claim that just about every role under the sun apart from low level supersonic strike and delivering M1 Abrams tanks into tactical airstrips is possible with a low cost development of an 1980's designed lead in trainer...

Gawd, next they'll be claiming a better than 1:1 kill ratio vs F22 and Su30's...:rolleyes:


On another note, Mr Conservative, how dare you put the pinprick of reality into the discussions of how NZ should acquire at least 10 squadrons of F22's and about 5 of B3's (you know, the successor to the B-2 ;-) ), quite apart from the 19 Mechanised divisions, umpteen nuclear submarines and Carrier Battle Groups! It's just NOT ON. Are you blind? Can you not see the enemies are lining up at the gate to invade - even the ones without aircraft carriers are towing large islands nearby so they can invade from there.... Tsk, Tsk, and you probably consider yourself to be a patriot.

I love fanboi's...
 
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