F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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Crusader2000

Banned Member
But as you keep being told, but apparently don't understand, the F-35 can't be delivered for a long time. And then there is the uncertain price . . . .



...........and as I have explained over and over again. Nothing would be available for a very long time regardless of the type was selected. Except more F-2's as a "Stop Gap".


Japan will only purchase aircraft that it can produce under license and with a significant Japanese Content.


Really, the most likely solution. Is the JASDF would order more F-2's to replace the F-4's. Which, would be followed by F-35's to replace F-15's in another 10 years or so.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The F-35s could get delivered before any F-22EX could.....
Yes and no. (apart from the fact that the F-22 is an outright DNS)

The Japanese can only get their builds after the initial consortium members get theirs. If the members delay or elect to make their slots available, then they can get them earlier. Otherwise consortium contracts would have priority and privilege.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Japan will only purchase aircraft that it can produce under license and with a significant Japanese Content.
the JSF build is already committed to some nations in the consortium. japan can do nothing about that. ie we have contracts to build components for everyone - incl US aircraft.

they will get whatever is left over, or if the contracts are renegotiated. They have no input into that as the contracts are already established. considering that the smart participants made them fleet contracts, then the chances of getting significant build work is next to zero.

come in late and you pay the price. they already know that - and thats already been noted in the japanese press.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Whether the build just components, or whole airframes is moot.... my point was that they "could" get them before the F-22EX.

Were the first F-15s that they got from the US or home built?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Whether the build just components, or whole airframes is moot.... my point was that they "could" get them before the F-22EX.

but thats an easy call considering that the F-22 is not up for grabs - and that the notion of an export F-22, no matter how touted in the press, ignores the reality of the extant integration and improvement problems and that you just can't build a dumbed down F-22. Part of the types current problems stem back to initial design issues - and they cannot be easily resolved in a cost effective manner. That series of inherent design problems directly impacts upon any notion of building an export artifact. The sheer notion of an export F-22 is a nonsense and is more wishful thinking than a considered engineering concept.

Were the first F-15s that they got from the US or home built?
The contract for the F-15's is completely different from the extant JSF contracts. Thats why prev build contracts are not relevant. This is the first modern aircraft combat consortium. The conditions of participation are completely different
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...........and as I have explained over and over again. Nothing would be available for a very long time regardless of the type was selected. Except more F-2's as a "Stop Gap"..
No, you haven't explained. As with your nonsensical arguments over the Gripen radar, you have claimed, without providing substantial arguments to support your claims, while ignoring the demolition of your claims.

I remember in that case you only finally backed down when confronted with an e-mail from Selex, which confirmed that statements you had repeatedly denied were, in fact, true. Are you waiting from an e-mail from the Japanese defence ministry in this case? Your arguments are in the same style now as then, I see. Repeat already refuted claims, while ignoring the refutations.

Typhoons could, as I have told you several times (& explained how - without you acknowledging those explanations), be delivered very quickly if Japan wanted. Choosing F-35 over Typhoon would necessitate accepting much later delivery, & a choice between a stop-gap F-2 or F-15 purchase & a reduction in numbers while awaiting delivery. That choice need not be made if Typhoon is selected.

BTW, an interim F-2 purchase would need a quick decision. The 12th & last annual contract to LM for components was signed in April 2008, with deliveries beginning September 2008. Long lead items are going out of production as we write . . .
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/040808ae_f2mitsubishi.html
 
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stoker

Member
No, you haven't explained. As with your nonsensical arguments over the Gripen radar, you have claimed, without providing substantial arguments to support your claims, while ignoring the demolition of your claims.

I remember in that case you only finally backed down when confronted with an e-mail from Selex, which confirmed that statements you had repeatedly denied were, in fact, true. Are you waiting from an e-mail from the Japanese defence ministry in this case? Your arguments are in the same style now as then, I see. Repeat already refuted claims, while ignoring the refutations.

Typhoons could, as I have told you several times (& explained how - without you acknowledging those explanations), be delivered very quickly if Japan wanted. Choosing F-35 over Typhoon would necessitate accepting much later delivery, & a choice between a stop-gap F-2 or F-15 purchase & a reduction in numbers while awaiting delivery. That choice need not be made if Typhoon is selected.
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One thing we don't seem to be considering in this debate is the fact that Japan is not in any dire need of upgrading its current fighter aircraft.
Japan is not going to be involved in any war in the forseeable future.
The Japanese are very astute traders and already know what aircraft they will finish up with in the future.
Logistically and interoperatability with their main ally the USA basic means that the aircfaft they will finish up with is the F35.
The Typhoon is a superb fighter aircraft but it will never serve in the Japanese Airforce.
 
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...........and as I have explained over and over again. Nothing would be available for a very long time regardless of the type was selected. Except more F-2's as a "Stop Gap"..
If Typhoon tranche-3B is not ordered Japan could always purchase a few dozen from the empty production line. :eek:hwell
 

swerve

Super Moderator
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One thing we don't seem to be considering in this debate is the fact that Japan is not in any dire need of upgrading its current fighter aircraft.....
Not what the JASDF says. It has fighters which are on their last legs, & must be retired soon. It has to choose between buying new fighters quickly, or accepting a significant drop in strength, as fighters retire without replacement. It insists the latter is unacceptable.

The fighters which must retire are interceptors, i.e. the busy ones. JASDF interceptors are frequently scrambled to intercept intruders, & after a long decline in the number of scrambles, numbers have recently been rising fast.There's a chart on the JASDF website - [JASDF] Japan Air Self-Defense Force (It's working at a crawl at the moment, & I don't want to wait for it. Have a look later.). Interceptors are the highest priority for the JASDF, & letting their numbers drop sharply at a time when the workload is going up is likely to meet strong opposition.

Logistically and interoperatability with their main ally the USA basic means that the aircfaft they will finish up with is the F35
The JASDF had aircraft in service which were designed after looking at (with a view to licence production - & serious negotiations) the Sepecat Jaguar, & which used the Jaguars engines (licence-built), for 30 years. Current senior JASDF fighter pilots all finished their training on the trainer version. The assumption that Japan will always buy American is just that, an assumption, & one which is contradicted by facts.

If Typhoon tranche-3B is not ordered Japan could always purchase a few dozen from the empty production line. :eek:hwell
That'd be very late. They might be able to get F-35 by then. T3A won't start being delivered until 2013.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The assumption that Japan will always buy American is just that, an assumption, & one which is contradicted by facts.
I don't think that there is an assumption. However, the odds are high because the japanese are now getting involved with a few other sig and comm programs and they're programs in which they do want to stay connected. some of those progs directly impact upon the capabilities offered in parallel with progs like JSF, subs and later developments of Aegis etc....

on another note. F-22 has been killed by Congress for 2010, so they do now have to become serious about replacement.

the problem for japan is that they have known about the decay rate of their extant force and played the wrong replacement card - even though it was made palpably clear that F-22 was not an option.

a bad reading of the tealeaves on their part
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Its very likely that Japan will continue to purchase US Fighters. At least for the foreseeable future. Unless somebody can provide a reliable source that proves otherwise.........
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't think that there is an assumption. ..
There is an assumption in some quarters. I name no names. ;) But given their blind alley detour with F-22, they're now in a bind. To buy F-35 they have to try to keep ancient F-4s staggering on for several years, or accept a significant reduction in their fighter force for years at a time when incursions into their airspace are increasing. The alternatives are to make an interim purchase of a type already in the inventory, or bite the bullet & buy non-American. More F-2s would need a prompt decision, as some long-lead items are going out of production, & they're far from ideal for the role in any case, being optimised for strike, when the role to be filled is air defence. F-15s are possible, but the advantages of commonality would not be as great as might at first be thought, as the only F-15s which could be bought are very different from those the JASDF already has. Or they could buy some Typhoons now, to replace the retiring F-4s & maybe the oldest F-15s, & later buy F-35 to replace everything else.

It's going to be interesting seeing what they choose.

the problem for japan is that they have known about the decay rate of their extant force and played the wrong replacement card - even though it was made palpably clear that F-22 was not an option.

a bad reading of the tealeaves on their part
Agreed.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Sorry, the current F-15J Fleet will last for another decade easily. As for the F-4's only a small number (40 I think?) need to be replaced at the moment. Which, can be done quickly and efficiently by just ordering more domestic built F-2's.


BTW Let's also not forget the sizable US Forces in Japan. From F-15's and F-16's to the USS George Washington and its Air Wing. (not to mention Air Forces in South Korea or Guam)



In short Japan has plently of time.
 

moahunter

Banned Member
In short Japan has plently of time.
I think you may be right. The media "noise" right now is of the tone, that the Japanese are not comfortable at the "pressure" being applied to get on the F35 horse ASAP. Japan holds all the cards here, it will be a multi-billion dollar contract. I am sure they will wait until they get an assurance of Japanese production (there is an important aviation industry in Japan - e.g. links to Boeing for Dreamliner), and technology transfer. Whatever plane they do acquire, will also I think, need to be tailored for their needs (which are different from most nations purchasing the F35).
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
I think you may be right. The media "noise" right now is of the tone, that the Japanese are not comfortable at the "pressure" being applied to get on the F35 horse ASAP. Japan holds all the cards here, it will be a multi-billion dollar contract. I am sure they will wait until they get an assurance of Japanese production (there is an important aviation industry in Japan - e.g. links to Boeing for Dreamliner), and technology transfer. Whatever plane they do acquire, will also I think, need to be tailored for their needs (which are different from most nations purchasing the F35).
Exactly...........Also, look how long its taking Brazil and India to select a new fighter.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sorry, the current F-15J Fleet will last for another decade easily. As for the F-4's only a small number (40 I think?) need to be replaced at the moment. Which, can be done quickly and efficiently by just ordering more domestic built F-2's.


BTW Let's also not forget the sizable US Forces in Japan. From F-15's and F-16's to the USS George Washington and its Air Wing. (not to mention Air Forces in South Korea or Guam)



In short Japan has plently of time.
AND

I think you may be right. The media "noise" right now is of the tone, that the Japanese are not comfortable at the "pressure" being applied to get on the F35 horse ASAP. Japan holds all the cards here, it will be a multi-billion dollar contract. I am sure they will wait until they get an assurance of Japanese production (there is an important aviation industry in Japan - e.g. links to Boeing for Dreamliner), and technology transfer. Whatever plane they do acquire, will also I think, need to be tailored for their needs (which are different from most nations purchasing the F35).
This is getting somewhat away from the F-35 thread, but there are a few things which I felt need to be noted. There currently ~90 F-4EJ Phantom II's in JASDF service, with the most recent one manufactured in Japan in 1981... Given the age of the airframes, that fact that the aircraft is a 3rd Gen, as well as the increasing capabilities of other air forces and aircraft in the region, it does appear time for Japan to replace the aging F-4 EJ's. That is in fact what the F-X programme is about, where Japan has been wanting the F-22, but also looking at the F-35, the Typhoon, Boeing's Super Hornet as well as the F-15FX Eagle, and even the Dassault Rafale.

The question which crops up, is just how long can Japan reasonably keep the F-4EJ's operational, and how long it would take the JASDF to achieve IOC and be able to start replacement with the various contenders for the F-X air defence fighter programme.

As for Japan being able to do local production of the F-35, and/or include local content, IMO any activity within the Japanese aerospace industry in concert with Boeing or other manufacturors is irrelevant. Given that the F-35 is a multi-national programme with tech tranfer, industrial participation and workshare involving a number of different nations, that introduces a host of additional issues.

At present, I am aware of only two assembly facilities, the primary one will be in the US, and a much smaller facility will be in Italy. It might, (emphasis MIGHT) be possible for the workshare partners to agree to allow Japan to setup their own domestic final assembly facility. I do not believe that the different workshare partners will agree to Japan engaging in manufacture of their own components without paying a premium to do so, since that would cut into a partner-nation's workshare. Additional, as I understand how the programme was structured (those who have more accurate or detailed info, please correct me) the various partners need agree to any changes, the US cannot just unilaterally allow Japan to being F-35 production. This I believe stems from the various partners all manufacturing components which will go into every F-35 of a given type.

An example of what I mean, is that if Australia's portion of the workshare is manufacturing the F-35A tail assemblies, then with the possible exception of the prototypes and some LRIP, all F-35A's in service would have an Australian-made tail assembly. If Japan decided that they wanted to have F-35A's with tail assemblies made in Japan, I believe that Australia, and/or all the other partner nations would need to agree prior to Japan beginning component manufacture.

-Cheers
 
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