Current state of Russian Air Force?

[Salty Dog]

Hi Feanor.

You forgot to mention the cost of forming up completly new Skvadrons of Su-35.

It will be far sheaper to integrate them into exsisting Skvadrons of Flanker, so i don't understand the logistical and Training issue..
There will of course be a given numbers of pilots to be trained in those new Su-35, so what?

The pilots would have to come from the older Su-27/SM anyway, right?
Less training time will be the outcome, hense less cost too.

So i would say it is a good chance Su-35 will enter existing Flanker Skavdrons.

If anyone have some good sources that confirming otherwise, i will not yield

Thanks

IMHO some of the Su-27 squadrons should completely transition to the Su-35. Much the same way the USN F-14 squadrons transitioned to the Super Hornet. There does not need to be a change in total squadron numbers or manning levels. Just re-train and re-classify personnel. Maintenenance will be an issue as the newer Su-35 avionics and materials are very different than the legacy Flankers.

IMHO Su-27 airframes with a high number of flight hours may be retired anyway to save on maintenance costs. Remaining airframes may be redistributed to balance out the total Flanker force.

BTW a link to some info on Flanker distribution:

Table 2. MOD Commands and Deployments

 

[Haavarla]

What your bet here?

The first formed Su-35 or mixed flanker Skvadron, will it be at the COMBAT TRG CENTER Lipetsk?
And When finishing the training, it will be transfered to Akhtubinsk for active duty?



Thanks

 

[Feanor]

That link has some faulty info, it seems. It claims that airbase 6972 has the ex-55th Helo regiment. But the 55th Helo regiment was deployed to the 7th Military Base in Abkhazia, last I heard. This site lists it as being in Krimsk, near Krasnodar. It's rather strange. If this site is more or less correct, then the new "airbases" are not standardized, and mix types of aircraft. It almost seems like each one is taylored to it's local conditions. Some have 24 Flankers, some 12, and some over 30. It will be interesting to see how the Su-35S's get distributed.

EDIT: On second thought, warfare.ru is typically relatively reliable. I'm not sure what to think to be honest.

 

[SkolZkiy]

And now really we hear about MiG-29K for RuNAVY
Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ìèíîáîðîíû êóïèò ïàëóáíûå èñòðåáèòåëè ÌèÃ-29Ê äëÿ "Àäìèðàëà Êóçíåöîâà"
here is in Russian
It is said that may be 24 MiG-29K would ordered for Kuznetsov

 

[Feanor]

Yep, just read the same article. On some level it's a relief new planes are being bought at all. On another level, I was hoping for a navalized PAK-FA, or some 5th gen. platform instead of just upgrade Fulcrums. Those were the rumors floating aroud originally. So we can infer that either there isn't enough money to develop it, or the PAK-FA is so far off that waiting for a navalized 5th gen just isn't an option. Neither one is good news.

 

[Salty Dog]

Yep, just read the same article. On some level it's a relief new planes are being bought at all. On another level, I was hoping for a navalized PAK-FA, or some 5th gen. platform instead of just upgrade Fulcrums. Those were the rumors floating aroud originally. So we can infer that either there isn't enough money to develop it, or the PAK-FA is so far off that waiting for a navalized 5th gen just isn't an option. Neither one is good news.

Does this mean RuN will replace Su-33s with Mig-29Ks ??

 

[SkolZkiy]

Su-33 has limited resource which ends somtetime. May be their life would be extended but still. Navalized PAK-FA would be be built only after building new training center for NAVY aircrafts near Astrakhan (the construction is planned in 2011/12) But we still need new AC for training pilots. And MiG-29K could be built here and now. I think if the order is signed RUNAVY would get them in 1-3 years. which means (2011-2012).

 

[Feanor]

Does this mean RuN will replace Su-33s with Mig-29Ks ??

That's what it looks like. Most likely it's being done (as opposed to getting the Flankers modernized and refitted) to throw a bone to MiG, whose finances are in trouble. It's to the point where it's jeopardizing their entry into the UAC, which is a priority. It would extend the production run for the Fulcrum line, until the MiG-35 is ready. Even if it loses the Indian tender, it has so far been stated as the LFI requirement to complement the PAK-FA, so guaranteed domestic orders and a production run of over 100 fighters until some foreign orders can be won.

 

[Salty Dog]

Su-33 has limited resource which ends somtetime. May be their life would be extended but still. Navalized PAK-FA would be be built only after building new training center for NAVY aircrafts near Astrakhan (the construction is planned in 2011/12) But we still need new AC for training pilots. And MiG-29K could be built here and now. I think if the order is signed RUNAVY would get them in 1-3 years. which means (2011-2012).

Could please clarify what you mean by "limited resource"?

IMHO the Su-33 should have very low hours on their airframes as I doubt they had much optempo over the years. So life extension should not be an issue. However, if the Mig-29K capabilities match or exceed the Su-33 or operating costs are far less then it would be a logical choice. This would be in a way sort of like the F/A-18F replacing the F-14D.

I would think the Mig-29K would enter RuN service rapidly as the factory line already producing the India Navy Mig-29K and the Indian pilots are presently in training, 1-3 years looks good.

 

[Salty Dog]

That's what it looks like. Most likely it's being done (as opposed to getting the Flankers modernized and refitted) to throw a bone to MiG, whose finances are in trouble. It's to the point where it's jeopardizing their entry into the UAC, which is a priority. It would extend the production run for the Fulcrum line, until the MiG-35 is ready. Even if it loses the Indian tender, it has so far been stated as the LFI requirement to complement the PAK-FA, so guaranteed domestic orders and a production run of over 100 fighters until some foreign orders can be won.

Thank you mate. Your response is slanted towards a commercial strategy. It would be interesting to see if the RuN is onboard with this replacement plan. There should be studies somewhere of the Mig-29K replacing the Su-33.

 

[Haavarla]

That's what it looks like. Most likely it's being done (as opposed to getting the Flankers modernized and refitted) to throw a bone to MiG, whose finances are in trouble. It's to the point where it's jeopardizing their entry into the UAC, which is a priority. It would extend the production run for the Fulcrum line, until the MiG-35 is ready. Even if it loses the Indian tender, it has so far been stated as the LFI requirement to complement the PAK-FA, so guaranteed domestic orders and a production run of over 100 fighters until some foreign orders can be won.

I agree with you Feanor.

The Navy PAK-FA for Russia are so far into the future, that this Mig-29K seems like the smartest thing to do.
Just think of it.. the RuAF will undoubtly get their first Skvadrons of the the PAK-FA long before the Ru-Navy.
In the worst case scenario, the PAK-FA cost per unit could be too expensive for the Ru-Navy.

Anyway, both in procurment & service cost the Mig-29K should be well under the Su-33 series.

Thanks

 

[Feanor]

I suspect that if serious studies were done, they're kept under wraps, as this stuff tends to be in Russia. The RuN gets no choice in this. Procurement strategy is dictated from above, and while some adjustment on the lower levels is possible, in this case they'll be grateful they're getting anything at all. It also falls in line with the recent policy of throwing RAC MiG bones to keep them from collapsing completely.

To be honest I doubt it's all that hard to overhaul and modernize the Su-33s to an Su-30M2 standard, or something else along those lines. It would probably cost less too. And like you said, the Su-33s haven't seen much action. The biggest issue would be their poor state in terms of maintenance. So the decision to get the MiG-29K doesn't stem out of procurement necessities, but most likely out of political-economic decisions. Similar to the decision to buy the Mig-35 for the LFI requirement, instead of getting MiG to develop a "light" version of the PAK-FA. This is mainly because 1) MiG probably can't do so within a reasonable timeframe, and 2) needs orders now. At least that's my reasoning.

 

[Salty Dog]

Thanks for your response and insights Feanor.

So Russian 5th generation fighter programs (PAK FA, LFI) are not yet mature enough to enable replacement of legacy Flanker and Fulcrum systems in the short to medium term. Thus RuAF and RuNav are pressed to replace their legacy systems with advanced 4th gen fighters namely the Su-35 and Mig-29K. The Russian military industrial complex in particular Sukhoi and RAC Mig need to keep their production lines open for commercial survival. Some big challenges indeed.

As mentioned, a high probability the RuNav will replace the Su-33 with the Mig-29K

Russian Navy will probably buy 24 MiG-29K fighters designed for India

 

[Haavarla]

Are there any news on what will happen with the Pre-prod Su-34s?

Will they be upgraded to series prod standard and enter RuAF?


Thanks

 

[Feanor]

Nothing will happen to the pre-production Su-34 run as far as I know. Or are you referring to airframes 901, 902, and 903? Those are series production airframes, and will be part of the first Su-34 unit. Iirc, before the reforms the 455th BAP in Voronezh (my hometown ) was scheduled to receive the Su-34s. Where they will go now, I don't know.

Salty Dog the LFI requirement has been fulfilled by the MiG-35, at least that's the news so far. So it no longer warrants a 5th gen. fighter program. I.e. the PAK-FA will be the only one.

 

[Haavarla]

Thank you mate. Your response is slanted towards a commercial strategy. It would be interesting to see if the RuN is onboard with this replacement plan. There should be studies somewhere of the Mig-29K replacing the Su-33.

Here is some news on Mig-29K.
It's been evaluated on the Admiral Kuznetsov 28-29 sept.
Looks like its a done deal then..

Its a google translation..

"MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB flew with the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov"

JSC "RSK" MiG "successfully conducted on heavy aircraft carrier (heavy aircraft)," Admiral Kuznetsov "flight tests ship-based fighters MiG-29K/KUB, mass-produced on request of the Indian Navy.
In tests on MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB 28 and 29 September 2009 made several landings and takeoffs on the deck of the cruiser, located in the Barents Sea.
During test flights the aircraft flown by test pilots RAC "MiG" Mikhail Belyaev, Pavel Vlasov, Nikolay Diorditsa and test pilot of Air Force Colonel Oleg Russia match.
The flights conducted Deputy Director-General RSK MiG on flight operations - Chief Flight Test Center im.A.V.Fedotova Hero of Russia Pavel Vlasov. Over the course of testing observed by representatives of the customer.
Flight tests MiG-29K/KUB on heavy aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" sum up the great work of creation in Russia of a new shipborne fighters.
General Director RAC "MiG" Mikhail Pogosyan, who was during a test flight aboard the cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov", thanked the pilots for their excellent work and stressed that the flights from the deck require the highest flying skills. Mikhail Pogosyan, expressed confidence that the aircraft will be needed MiG-29K/KUB Russia's Armed Forces. The head of the Corporation "MiG" is also noted that the successful tests on the ship will contribute to the further development of the program MiG-29K/KUB in India and the increased interest of other foreign customers for new aircraft RAC "MiG".

Test pilots performing flights on MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB during testing in the Northern Fleet:

- Mikhail Belyaev - Test Pilot Class 1;
- Pavel Vlasov - Hero of Russia, Honored Test Pilot of Russia, Deputy Director RAC "MiG" by Flight Operations - Chief Flight Test Center (persons) im.A.V.Fedotova, head of flight services;
- Nicholas Diorditsa - Hero of Russia, distinguished test pilot of the RF, OFFICERS im.A.V.Fedotova;
- Oleg Match - Senior Test Pilot of the State Flight Test Center to them.

Marine MiG-29K (single) and MiG-29KUB (double) - Multi-purpose aircraft generation "4 + +, designed to solve the problems of ship air defense compounds, gaining dominance in the air, destruction of surface and ground targets with precision weapons controlled day and night all weather conditions.
First flight of skilled MiG-29KUB held in January 2007 the first serial aircraft took off in March 2008

The main technical and technological innovations on the fighters MiG-29K/KUB:
- Improved airframe with a high proportion of composite materials;
- Folding wings with improved mechanization, providing improved takeoff and landing characteristics;
- Digital integrated-wire aircraft control system with quadruple redundancy;
- Significantly reduced visibility in the radar range;
- Increased combat load;
- Increased internal fuel capacity and the availability of in-flight refueling;
- The ability to refuel other aircraft fuel in the fuel unit refueling equipment PAZ-1MK.

Fighters MiG-29K/KUB the improved performance and higher reliability of assemblies, systems and components. Compared to the previous fighters, flying resource MiG-29K/KUB increased more than 2 times, and flight hour cost is reduced almost in 2,5 times. The avionics MiG-29K/KUB based on the principle of open architecture. The fighter is installed multifunctional multimode pulse-Doppler airborne radar station (radar) "Zhuk-ME. Compared with the previous-generation radars, it has a greater range of viewing angles in azimuth, double the detection range, lower weight and higher reliability. Radar" Zhuk -ME provides support up to 10 air targets and the simultaneous firing of rockets on four of them. MiG-29K/KUB equipped with modern multi-channel optical-location station and the system of targeting passive homing anti-radar missiles.
The complex consists of arming guided missiles, air-to-air and air-to-surface, adjustable, bombs, rockets, aerial bombs and built-in 30-mm cannon. At the request of the customer into the arms may be introduced new models of aircraft weapons.
For MiG-29K/KUB developed a complete set of teaching aids, including an integrated simulator with the system of mobility.
The strategy of integration capabilities RSK MiG and Sukhoi Company, the new fighter MiG will be implemented in the system created for the new generation of combat aircraft."

Thanks

 

[Haavarla]

Nothing will happen to the pre-production Su-34 run as far as I know. Or are you referring to airframes 901, 902, and 903? Those are series production airframes, and will be part of the first Su-34 unit. Iirc, before the reforms the 455th BAP in Voronezh (my hometown ) was scheduled to receive the Su-34s. Where they will go now, I don't know.

The Pre-prod Su-34 "48" was seen on Maks 2007.

Photos: Sukhoi Su-34 (Su-32FN) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Any idea where these Pre-prod are now?
atleast the "44", "46" and "48" should be in good condition.


Thanks

 

[Feanor]

Ah, you beat me to it with the Kuznetsov trials. More big news, Army Aviation will be returned to Land Forces command, transferred from VVS, according to commander of Land Forces Boldyrev.

ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ

I don't know that the 2-3 pre-prod airframes in good enough condition to be upgraded into serial production variants are important enough to investigate. Either NAPo will get their shit together, and we will see dozens of Su-34s, or there will be too few to make a difference.

 

[Haavarla]

Ah, you beat me to it with the Kuznetsov trials. More big news, Army Aviation will be returned to Land Forces command, transferred from VVS, according to commander of Land Forces Boldyrev.

ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ

I don't know that the 2-3 pre-prod airframes in good enough condition to be upgraded into serial production variants are important enough to investigate. Either NAPo will get their shit together, and we will see dozens of Su-34s, or there will be too few to make a difference.

Yeah, good news.
Looks to me that Mikhail Pogosyan are doing his magic for RAC MIG these days
I must say i never tought i would see RAC Mig re-surfacing again, they sure was in big trouble a few years back..

"General Director RAC "MiG" Mikhail Pogosyan, who was during a test flight aboard the cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov", thanked the pilots for their excellent work and stressed that the flights from the deck require the highest flying skills. Mikhail Pogosyan, expressed confidence that the aircraft will be needed MiG-29K/KUB Russia's Armed Forces. The head of the Corporation "MiG" is also noted that the successful tests on the ship will contribute to the further development of the program MiG-29K/KUB in India and the increased interest of other foreign customers for new aircraft RAC "MiG".

The Su-34 red "04" will fly by the end of this year. My gut feeling tells me so

Thanks

 

[Feanor]

If you're right, then production rates are at 1 airframe per year. Pathetic. I knew NAPO was in bad shape, but given that they managed modernization and overhauls for the Fencers at a relatively robust pace, this is sad. Then again, for all we know 04 could already be flying. They've stopped reporting specifics on delivery of new equipment.