Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[dragonfire]

Unfortunately an IN Sea Harrier crashed recently killing it's pilot. It is possible that an event like this can cancel a entire flight program especially if it is old and expensive. The Brazilian Air Force operated P-16 (S-2) aircraft from the aircraft carrier Minas Gerais until a fatal crash in the early 1990´s, after which the entire P-16 program was canceled.

How unfortunate - Condolences to the Pilot's Family, infact out of the 30 units purchased 18 have been lost mostly in routine flights resulting in 8 pilots lossing their lives.

Then there was 12 ehhhh...

There was a talk of India trying to acquire more from Britan.

Then again the point of the upgrades to the aircraft which has extended its lifetime is negated if it not going to be used, lets see maybe after the crash is inestigated it might be allowed to die a natural and silent death

 

[swerve]

...
The INS Jalshwa (former USS Trenton) can be used for deploying the Harriers under special circumstances, having a flight deck. However am not sure how many can be used ?, as well as if it is capable of deploying the Sea Harriers as the they are deployed on the STOVL config on the INS Virrat whereas the on the INS Jalashwa it can operate only in the VTOL config... .

In VTOL mode, the SHARs will be very limited in take-off weight, especially in hot weather. This would greatly reduce their effectiveness. They could carry only light armament, & a reduced fuel load, giving very short range. I think it might be better to use the spots for AEW helicopters, to give shipboard SAMs a better reaction time.

How unfortunate - Condolences to the Pilot's Family, infact out of the 30 units purchased 18 have been lost mostly in routine flights resulting in 8 pilots lossing their lives.

Then there was 12 ehhhh...

There was a talk of India trying to acquire more from Britan.

Unfortunately, the IN decided not to buy them without their AMRAAMs (which the UK was not free to sell) & Blue Vixen radars (despite intending to refit the existing fleet with EL/M-2032). Ah well.

There are still a few in the UK which could be put back into service, & I would expect them to be for sale, if the IN is interested.

 

[funtz]

Unfortunately an IN Sea Harrier crashed recently killing it's pilot. It is possible that an event like this can cancel a entire flight program especially if it is old and expensive. The Brazilian Air Force operated P-16 (S-2) aircraft from the aircraft carrier Minas Gerais until a fatal crash in the early 1990´s, after which the entire P-16 program was canceled.

I think if it anything it would have cancled the program right back at the time it started (reading about the record of the sea harrier).

In VTOL mode, the SHARs will be very limited in take-off weight, especially in hot weather. This would greatly reduce their effectiveness. They could carry only light armament, & a reduced fuel load, giving very short range. I think it might be better to use the spots for AEW helicopters, to give shipboard SAMs a better reaction time.

I dont think that many ships utilize the Russian AEW helis for relaying data to the ship to counter the AShM threat, the ones that do carry their own.

Would it be more advantagesous to carry ASW or transport helis?

Unfortunately, the IN decided not to buy them without their AMRAAMs (which the UK was not free to sell) & Blue Vixen radars (despite intending to refit the existing fleet with EL/M-2032). Ah well.

There are still a few in the UK which could be put back into service, & I would expect them to be for sale, if the IN is interested.

I think the problem was with the offered price, more than the AMRAAM ability (Back then Ministry of Defence India was not so sure about US weapons/eqipment), and the future fighter airwing of Mig-29Ks (which has not materialised yet), IN got some sea harriers after that for spare parts, will post the news report detailing this A.S.A i find it.

In hindsight might have been beter to acquire them.

 

[dragonfire]

In VTOL mode, the SHARs will be very limited in take-off weight, especially in hot weather. This would greatly reduce their effectiveness. They could carry only light armament, & a reduced fuel load, giving very short range. I think it might be better to use the spots for AEW helicopters, to give shipboard SAMs a better reaction time.

The range on the fighters will be affected if operated in the VTOL mode - that is true. However if a couple were inducted on the INS Jalshwa with ground attack/support roles a la USMC Harriers, then it can support the amphibious attack formation it carries, along with some attack choppers another area India is far behind

Perhaps a Juan Carlos clone (which will have an angled deck) might be a good platform then. The Autralians are acquiring them as prob. the canterbury class arent they. Or maybe the Tarawa/ Wasp class along with their aircrafts.

Unfortunately, the IN decided not to buy them without their AMRAAMs (which the UK was not free to sell) & Blue Vixen radars (despite intending to refit the existing fleet with EL/M-2032). Ah well.

There are still a few in the UK which could be put back into service, & I would expect them to be for sale, if the IN is interested.

I have read conflicting reports - as in britan and india are in dicussion over the said acquisition wherein from the software the american coding will be deleted - also that the US is willing now for britain to sell the harriers with / without the blue vixen - dont know what is true though

 

[dragonfire]

I dont think that many ships utilize the Russian AEW helis for relaying data to the ship to counter the AShM threat, the ones that do carry their own.

India recently decided to double its Kamov Ka 31 fleet to 18. They have secure data links to their base stations/ships they operate from. By they way the Kamov looks like one ugly duckling

Would it be more advantagesous to carry ASW or transport helis?

Indian Navy currently operates around 25 Sea King Helos. The Sea King which can perform both utility role as well as ASW role. Also IN operates the Ka-25 as well as Ka-28 ASW naval helos

 

[swerve]

The range on the fighters will be affected if operated in the VTOL mode - that is true. However if a couple were inducted on the INS Jalshwa with ground attack/support roles a la USMC Harriers, then it can support the amphibious attack formation it carries, along with some attack choppers another area India is far behind

Perhaps a Juan Carlos clone (which will have an angled deck) might be a good platform then. The Autralians are acquiring them as prob. the canterbury class arent they. Or maybe the Tarawa/ Wasp class along with their aircrafts.

Range is affected because of maximum take-off weight, which is limited in VTOL to a level which limits the fuel load. If you can't even take off with much fuel, how many bombs can you carry?

No, you're better off parking some Smerch launchers on the flight deck to bombard the shore, or buying some decent attack helicopters. A couple of severely range-limited SHARs with very light bomb loads indeed, & insufficient fuel for air-air combat, would just be a waste of space.

The Australians are buying two slightly modified Juan Carlos from Spain, as the Canberra class. They (& the original) do not have angled decks. Fitting one would mean a major redesign, & would be inappropriate for an amphibious ship with only secondary fixed-wing capability. Canterbury is a much smaller RNZN ship.

AFAIK, no Tarawas or Wasps are for sale. A new-build one would be far, far, more expensive both to buy and operate than a Juan Carlos. The USMC is worrying about whether it can keep enough AV-8B to meet its own needs operating until replaced by F-35B, not putting any up for sale.

 

[Salty Dog]

In service with the USN, the Trenton class LPD's were never used to deploy Harriers as only the LPH, LHA, and LHD classes were outfitted with the proper facilities to support their deployment. The LPDs did not have space for Harrier weapons or support equipment. The LPDs did land Harriers for refueling only.

It's not feasible to deploy two types of aircraft on an LPD. This would require equipment and personnel support facilities for two separate air detachments which LPDs are not configured to handle.

It would not be feasible to deploy AEW or ASW helos on an LPD as these do not have the shipboard tactical equipment or consoles to support AEW or ASW operations.

About the only usefulness the INS Jalashwa would serve for Harriers or ASW/AEW helos, is for refueling.

 

[dragonfire]

Range is affected because of maximum take-off weight, which is limited in VTOL to a level which limits the fuel load. If you can't even take off with much fuel, how many bombs can you carry?

No, you're better off parking some Smerch launchers on the flight deck to bombard the shore, or buying some decent attack helicopters. A couple of severely range-limited SHARs with very light bomb loads indeed, & insufficient fuel for air-air combat, would just be a waste of space.

Perhaps you are right the INS JalAshwa should be used only for special occasions to embark Harriers (prob will never happen). Attack Choppers on the other hand is something that is not available on IN ships (land attack/CAS) IN should acquire some - the HAL Dhruv was presented to the Navy for acquisition with attack configs, wondering if IN will embark them

The Australians are buying two slightly modified Juan Carlos from Spain, as the Canberra class. They (& the original) do not have angled decks. Fitting one would mean a major redesign, & would be inappropriate for an amphibious ship with only secondary fixed-wing capability. Canterbury is a much smaller RNZN ship.

AFAIK, no Tarawas or Wasps are for sale. A new-build one would be far, far, more expensive both to buy and operate than a Juan Carlos. The USMC is worrying about whether it can keep enough AV-8B to meet its own needs operating until replaced by F-35B, not putting any up for sale.

Thanks the correction - it is the canberra class, however the Juan Carlos will have a ski jump and will embark aircraft (harriers/JSF - as per wiki).

The USS Saipan (decommisioned) could be acquired, or the other 2 currently active Tarawa class vessels which are active but are nearing their retirement. Or maybe the USS Wasp (the rest of the class is too new)

In service with the USN, the Trenton class LPD's were never used to deploy Harriers as only the LPH, LHA, and LHD classes were outfitted with the proper facilities to support their deployment. The LPDs did not have space for Harrier weapons or support equipment. The LPDs did land Harriers for refueling only.

It's not feasible to deploy two types of aircraft on an LPD. This would require equipment and personnel support facilities for two separate air detachments which LPDs are not configured to handle.

As mentioned above - your inputs have reinforced that operational deployment of harriers on the INS JalAshwa will not be feasible

It would not be feasible to deploy AEW or ASW helos on an LPD as these do not have the shipboard tactical equipment or consoles to support AEW or ASW operations.

About the only usefulness the INS Jalashwa would serve for Harriers or ASW/AEW helos, is for refueling.

The Sea King helos acquired for the INS JalAshwa have ASW capabilities dont they ?

 

[Salty Dog]

The Sea King helos acquired for the INS JalAshwa have ASW capabilities dont they ?

The six Sea Kings which were part of the ex-USS Trenton transfer are the UH-3H model which is utility cargo version (no weapons or sensors).

 

[Salty Dog]

If you are looking around for some used US Navy carrier decks you can look here:

Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility

NISMF Philadelphia

 

[StingrayOZ]

I don't see why India buys these older USN or Russian ships.

Of the USN ships USS Nassau will be retired soonish, and history has shown if you want to buy a USN ship (or any other) get in as soon as its retired to avoid the rot that sets in once decommissioned. Then there is a big gap before any of the Wasp class would be retired. The other ships in those lists are not really suitable or really old (Iwo Jimas etc)

Something like a JCI would provide heaps of capability and a much longer service life. Not to mention far more capable and lower operating costs.

 

[tphuang]

just looking at this page Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Car Nicobar Class
it really puzzles me that even in this day and age, they aren't building something that's more stealthy. Worst of all, it can't even carry AShM.

These are examples of how you want your FAC to look like
File:Hamina-luokka Hanko.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:K32 HMS Helsingborg Anchored-of-Gotska-Sandoen cropped.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Type022.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Skjold class 17 jan 08.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kay_man]

just looking at this page Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Car Nicobar Class
it really puzzles me that even in this day and age, they aren't building something that's more stealthy. Worst of all, it can't even carry AShM.

These are examples of how you want your FAC to look like
File:Hamina-luokka Hanko.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:K32 HMS Helsingborg Anchored-of-Gotska-Sandoen cropped.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Type022.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Skjold class 17 jan 08.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is a low tech high speed craft for coastal patrolling against terrorists and piracy and intercept vessels entering Indian waters . its not meant to engage any sort of warships. so why bother with stealth.
in case of war i dont think it has the reach even to hit karachi.
also it is the first time an indegenous ship has used water jets... so maybe they want to keep things simple.

 

[kay_man]

It should probably be in the Indian coast guard.
Anyway dude look at the tonnage of the ships you are comparing it to and the cost !!!!

 

[dragonfire]

just looking at this page Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Car Nicobar Class
it really puzzles me that even in this day and age, they aren't building something that's more stealthy. Worst of all, it can't even carry AShM.

These are examples of how you want your FAC to look like
File:Hamina-luokka Hanko.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:K32 HMS Helsingborg Anchored-of-Gotska-Sandoen cropped.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Type022.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Skjold class 17 jan 08.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It should probably be in the Indian coast guard.
Anyway dude look at the tonnage of the ships you are comparing it to and the cost !!!!

While tphuang raises a point on the vessel being non stealth, tphuang you are however making comparisons with the highest level tech (in operation) vs. a very comparitively cheaper boat ($ 10 mil for the Car Nicobar class vessels). But at the same time what you are putting forward is that India should be developing / acquiring stealth FACs - this is something we should agree to

These are vessels with the IN (active, under construction or planned) which have Stealth features (various levels). I have included the Saryu class only based on this picture of the Saryu class vessels thinking it could have LO features


Class------------------Type------------------Armament (anti)---------Displacement
Project 15 B---------Destroyer-----------Land/Air/Ship/Sub------6800 tons
Project 17------------Frigate---------------Land/Air/Ship/Sub------5600 tons
Project 17 A---------Frigate---------------Land/Air/Ship/Sub------5600 tons
Talwar Class--------Frigate---------------Land/Air/Ship/Sub------4000 tons
Project 28------------Corvette-------------Land/Air/Ship/Sub------2500 tons
Saryu Class---------NOPV----------------CIWS+ OTO 76 mm----2200 tons

 

[dragonfire]

Eight Sea Harrier planes grounded for four days

August 26th, 2009 - 11:19 am ICT by IANS

Panaji, Aug 26 (IANS) Eight Sea harrier fighter jets of the Indian navy have been grounded here following last Friday’s crash of a plane in the sea off Goa, which resulted in the death of the pilot, an official said here Wednesday.

The entire fleet based at the Indian Naval Service (INS) in Hansa, Goa, has been thoroughly inspected by members of the Board of Inquiry set up after the accident that killed Lt. Cdr. Saurav Saxena.

Eight Sea Harrier planes grounded for four days

-

There are only 11 active Harriers left with the IN (and not 12 as mentioned earlier) out of which 8 are fighter and 3 trainer versions. The 8 fighter versions (as well as the one which crashed a few days back) had been given an upgrade recently. These fighters have been grounded although only for a few days.

The INS Viraat is about to get back into active duty after its 18 month refit. The ship is supposed to be in 5 yrs more of service. Some other reports indicate a longer period lasting upto 2019.

The INS Viraat can embark upto 30 aircrafts. The IN has only 8 fighter versions left and if they clear the inspections they will be deployed on the A/c once it is back on active duty.

What Should IN do - should additional examples be acquired or the entire fleet be disposed post the retirement of INS Viraat. Recently 4 Mig-29 K were delivered to the IN (although I think the fighters are still in Russia were the training is being imparted to the IN Pilots). Can the Mig-29 K fighters be deployed on the INS Viraat. That will give the pilots real time carrier ops experience before the INS Vikramaditya is finaly delivered, as well as the INS Viraat will have some fighters on board .
Also did the US and UK versions of the Harriers have a better safety record

 

[kay_man]

Eight Sea Harrier planes grounded for four days

August 26th, 2009 - 11:19 am ICT by IANS

What Should IN do - should additional examples be acquired or the entire fleet be disposed post the retirement of INS Viraat. Recently 4 Mig-29 K were delivered to the IN (although I think the fighters are still in Russia were the training is being imparted to the IN Pilots). Can the Mig-29 K fighters be deployed on the INS Viraat. That will give the pilots real time carrier ops experience before the INS Vikramaditya is finaly delivered, as well as the INS Viraat will have some fighters on board .
Also did the US and UK versions of the Harriers have a better safety record

Viraat will require a very extensive refit which will require arrester cables for landing and restraining cables for the Migs to build up speed.
its not a practical option.
in case there are more crashes in fufre it makes more sense to buy new / used harriers.

 

[funtz]

just looking at this page Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Car Nicobar Class
it really puzzles me that even in this day and age, they aren't building something that's more stealthy. Worst of all, it can't even carry AShM.

These are examples of how you want your FAC to look like
File:Hamina-luokka Hanko.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:K32 HMS Helsingborg Anchored-of-Gotska-Sandoen cropped.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Type022.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Skjold class 17 jan 08.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its a costal patrol boat.

IN is not thinking about loading up on AShM on these boats, their is no threat in the IOR that requires every costal patrol boat to be equiped with AShM, or hide under stealth.

At the ranges that this boat is supposed to attack with its gun only visual stealth can work (and that kind of beats the point as i assume one would like to announce the presence of a patrol boat).

 

[swerve]

...in case there are more crashes in fufre it makes more sense to buy new / used harriers.

There are no new Harriers, unless India wants to pay for re-starting production (theoretically possible, but it wouldn't be cheap). Apart from the ex-RN SHARs, the only used Harriers I know of which might be bought are retired ex-USMC ones at AMARC, & I think even the best of those would need extensive & expensive rebuilds to put them back into service. AFAIK, they're being used as spares sources to keep the operational ones flying.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Really is the Harrier really that relevant any more?

I imagine there may be more avalible when the USMC gets a F-35B.