Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[dragonfire]

yeah, I'm really guity of not spending more time here, sorry Garry.


There are something wrong with this. The Navy should be sending out RFP to local shipyards who bid for contracts. And it's up to the shipyards to take out loans or using cash reserves to pay for modernization. And then after modernization, they can do the project + future projects + take on more advanced civilian projects. It forces the most ambitious + competitive + efficient shipyards to get the contracts in the long run. This produces efficiency. If you give shipyards contract + money to modernize, they are just going to take things for granted -> not competitive in the long run.

I agree to your comments on this, however i have a feeling that perhaps this modernisation (the cost of which is disproportinate to the actual ship building costs of this particular order) is being done in mind to be able to accomdate future orders from the navy, like for eg.. additional frigates or perhaps for the second 6 submarine tender (conventional) or maybe future orders for nuc-subs

 

[kay_man]

yeah, I'm really guity of not spending more time here, sorry Garry.


There are something wrong with this. The Navy should be sending out RFP to local shipyards who bid for contracts. And it's up to the shipyards to take out loans or using cash reserves to pay for modernization. And then after modernization, they can do the project + future projects + take on more advanced civilian projects. It forces the most ambitious + competitive + efficient shipyards to get the contracts in the long run. This produces efficiency. If you give shipyards contract + money to modernize, they are just going to take things for granted -> not competitive in the long run.

i confess i dont know muuch in this matter, but is it possible that since much of the defence sector is under public sector, no RFPs were sent ?
the govt may recover the upgradation cost of shipyards per ship (something like tax )

 

[dragonfire]

INS Arihant

News Update

PM to launch indigenous nuke submarine by month-end

New Delhi: In what will mark a quantum leap for India's shipbuilding capabilities, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will launch the country's first indigenously designed and built nuclear-powered attack submarine at a quiet function at Visakhapatnam by the month-end but it could be a while before the vessel is commissioned, an official said.

"The construction work is complete and the submarine will be formally launched into the water by the Prime minister," the official said, adding the function will be attended by Defence Minister A.K. Antony.

PM to launch indigenous nuke submarine by month-end - India - NEWS - The Times of India
-

The first sub from the indigenious nuc-sub program will be launched on Kargil Day (Jul26) as INS Arihant (translates as "The Destroyer of Enemies").

Even the launch of the sub is going to be a subdued "quiet" function, the ATV program itself was so hush hush for the longest time. Even considering that the sea trials and outfitting might take 2 yrs, it translates to the IN having it's first indigenious nuc-sub by 2011 and perhaps even add two more every other year from then on and so by 2015 IN might have 4 operational nuc-subs (including the Akula on lease fom Russia), which is great stuff

 

[kay_man]

News Update

PM to launch indigenous nuke submarine by month-end

New Delhi: In what will mark a quantum leap for India's shipbuilding capabilities, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will launch the country's first indigenously designed and built nuclear-powered attack submarine at a quiet function at Visakhapatnam by the month-end but it could be a while before the vessel is commissioned, an official said.

"The construction work is complete and the submarine will be formally launched into the water by the Prime minister," the official said, adding the function will be attended by Defence Minister A.K. Antony.

PM to launch indigenous nuke submarine by month-end - India - NEWS - The Times of India
-

The first sub from the indigenious nuc-sub program will be launched on Kargil Day (Jul26) as INS Arihant (translates as "The Destroyer of Enemies").

Even the launch of the sub is going to be a subdued "quiet" function, the ATV program itself was so hush hush for the longest time. Even considering that the sea trials and outfitting might take 2 yrs, it translates to the IN having it's first indigenious nuc-sub by 2011 and perhaps even add two more every other year from then on and so by 2015 IN might have 4 operational nuc-subs (including the Akula on lease fom Russia), which is great stuff

awsome news....however ins arihant sounds like something you get in a bookstore.

 

[dragonfire]

awsome news....however ins arihant sounds like something you get in a bookstore.

I actualy havent heard of this word before - which language is it - any ideas - sanskrit perhaps ??

 

[Rish]

I actualy havent heard of this word before - which language is it - any ideas - sanskrit perhaps ??

yeah its sanskrit

 

[Salty Dog]

"However, the Arihant still is far from reaching operational status, as it currently is little more than a floating hull. Its key capability of nuclear propulsion is not yet available, as the nuclear reactor still has to be fitted. Also, significant systems, such as surveillance equipment as well as ordnance, are still missing, according to Uday Bhaskar, a former naval commander and director of the National Maritime Foundation. It will, therefore, probably take India a further three to five years before the Arihant is fully operational."

India's INS Arihant Makes First Contact with Water

While India is to be congratulated for it's achievement, the Arihant is hardly a SSN without a powerplant, weapons, sensors, etc. A long way to go still.

 

[funtz]

?
Its got a power plant, weapons and sensors, the sea trials and weapons trials are going to validate them.

The article is strange.

 

[dragonfire]

"However, the Arihant still is far from reaching operational status, as it currently is little more than a floating hull. Its key capability of nuclear propulsion is not yet available, as the nuclear reactor still has to be fitted. Also, significant systems, such as surveillance equipment as well as ordnance, are still missing, according to Uday Bhaskar, a former naval commander and director of the National Maritime Foundation. It will, therefore, probably take India a further three to five years before the Arihant is fully operational."

India's INS Arihant Makes First Contact with Water

While India is to be congratulated for it's achievement, the Arihant is hardly a SSN without a powerplant, weapons, sensors, etc. A long way to go still.

?
Its got a power plant, weapons and sensors, the sea trials and weapons trials are going to validate them.

The article is strange.

I remember reading a news report some time back ( i think i posted the same here on defencetalk - but cant find it now) which indicated that the nuclear reactor (the 80 MW miniature reactor was developed by the Bhaba Atomic Centre) was fitted on to the hull of the ATV (now named INS Arihant)

I believe the following

• The Nuc-reactor is fitted to the hull of the nuc-sub
• The Nuc-sub is not operational now so the propulsion isnt activated
• The reactor isnt fueled
• The Sensor package isnt loaded yet
• Ordinance isnt loaded yet on to the boat
• It will be about 2-3 yrs befor it can be inducted into the IN
• The first vessel will be a test bed for technology which will be implmented on other vessels of the class

I have posted couple of links for point 1

India Launches First Indigenous Nuclear Powered Submarine Arihant

the 80 MW mini-nuclear reactor to power the submarine has been installed

The Hindu : Front Page : Nuclear submarine all set to enter waters

The mini-nuclear reactor that will power the submarine has been fitted into its hull.

Cheers

 

[funtz]

Well it is funny cause the author makes you believe that they will now cut the submarine and put in the propulsion mechanism.

 

[kay_man]

Well it is funny cause the author makes you believe that they will now cut the submarine and put in the propulsion mechanism.

yea.....lol.
all systems have been fitted and its started its sea trials.
L&T has made the hull
TATA has made the control systems
Walchanda has dnt the steam turbine system
sensors are by BEL and DRDO etc

Heres an interesting article i found in the DNA newspaper today..
very sound and sensible thinking.

China casts wary eye on India's N-submarine

Venkatesan Vembu.Hong Kong



China took wary note of India's launch of its first nuclear-powered submarine, but with Chinese focus shifting to the upgraded, high-profile Sino-US strategic and economic dialogue in Washington, the official media gave it only passing mention.
The official news agency Xinhua put out a factual report on the launch, without any commentary. And even the rather more stridently nationalist Global Times, which has in recent times kept up a barrage of articles criticising India's "unwise military moves", offered no immediate comment.
Xinhua, however, amplified a Pakistan navy spokesman's comment that India's launch of a nuclear-powered submarine would "trigger a nuclear arm's race" and "destabilise the region".
Shijie Junshie (Global Military) magazine executive editor Chen Hu, a military historian and specialist in strategic affairs, said that the muted international response to India's announcement of its nuclear-powered submarine programme reflected their "duplicitous" efforts to focus attention away from the development. "If, instead of India, it had been Iran or North Korea that had made this announcement, there would have been a more stirring response from the international community… There would have been economic, diplomatic and military sanctions and intimidation — and even the threat of war," he noted.
Global Times has been far more shrill in recent weeks, and one of its most recent articles on India's "unwise military moves" remains one of the 'most commented' articles on its website. That article bluntly said: "India sees China as both a potential threat and a competitor to surpass. But India cannot compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale. India apparently has not realised this."
Indian politicians "seem to think their country would be doing China a huge favour simply by not joining the 'ring around China' established by the US and Japan," the article speculated. It further claimed India believed China would respond with "fear and gratitude" and "defer" to India on territorial disputes. "But this is wishful thinking, as China won't make any compromises in its border disputes with India. And while China wishes to coexist peacefully, this desire isn't born out of fear."

 

[kay_man]

save time or save money?

Project 17-A: All seven new stealth frigates to be built in India

By Ajai Shukla

Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata

Business Standard, 27th July 09

India’s largest warship builders --- Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai; and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata --- have prevailed over the Indian Navy’s objections. Business Standard has learned that MDL and GRSE will divide between them the entire order for seven improved stealth frigates, code-named Project 17A.

The navy was insisting that the first two frigates of Project 17A be built abroad so that MDL and GRSE could learn how to build ships using new modular methods that are preferred by European shipyards. This would have raised the price of Project 17A by more than Rs 5000 crores.

MDL and GRSE countered that they possessed the technology and the experience for building cutting-edge warships entirely in India.

Each Shivalik class frigate of Project 17 was priced at Rs 2600 crores, and the navy plans to insist on the same price for Project 17A. Building abroad would cost at least twice as much as building at MDL and GRSE.

But the navy was focusing on early delivery, rather than cost. Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, insisted on presenting before the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the highest decision-making body in the Ministry of Defence (MoD), the advantages of kicking off Project 17A in a foreign shipyard. But Defence Minister AK Antony stepped in to order entirely indigenous production.

At GRSE, a modernisation programme is underway to create the facilities needed for building Project 17A. The Chairman and Managing Director (CMD), Rear Admiral KC Sekhar, says a fully equipped modular yard with a 250-ton Goliath crane will be ready in mid-2011. By then, MoD sanctions will be in place and the navy would have completed the design of Project 17B.

Explaining the time-line, Admiral Sekhar said, “The MoD has informally told us that MDL and GRSE will build Project 17A; we are awaiting [formal sanction]. Once the navy finalises the size and design of the new frigate, we will decide our build strategy and costing. Then, hopefully, by the end of 2009, the MoD will issue a Request for Proposals (RfP); GRSE and MDL will submit separate quotes; and then the MoD will place a formal order on the shipyards. Construction should start by end-2011.”

This is the first time that India’s two major defence shipyards are sharing one project between them. And while MDL and GRSE are bidding separately, they are working in close consultation.

Admiral Sekhar points out that both shipyards have a common aim: to construct this largest-ever order of seven frigates without any delays. He explains, “We will have a common design for all seven ships of Project 17A. MDL can be the lead shipyard since they have more experience in building bigger ships. They can start work on the first frigate; after six months, we will start work on the second one.”

While MDL takes the lead in construction, GRSE will lead the design effort. A month ago, three companies --- GRSE; French shipbuilder, DCNS; and Kolkata-based IT engineering company, Vision Comptech --- formed a joint venture (JV) to design marine products, including warships, for customers globally. This JV is expected to work with the navy’s Directorate General of Naval Design (DGND) on the design for Project 17A.

If all goes well, say the shipyards, the first Project 17A frigates should be delivered to the Indian Navy by 2016-17.

Would it be sensible to simultaneously start the project 17a in foreign shipyards and save precious time. would the extra expenses be woth it considering that the Indian navy has not made any major purchase in the past decade and needs a lot pf catching up to do.
plz comment.

 

[tphuang]

I really don't think building in Indian shipyards save cost as I've talked before. Indian shipyards are just not that competitive. Building 2 in south korea and the remaining 5 in India should be cheaper than building 7 in India.

 

[OPSSG]

I really don't think building in Indian shipyards save cost as I've talked before. Indian shipyards are just not that competitive. Building 2 in south korea and the remaining 5 in India should be cheaper than building 7 in India.

I think their objective, at the moment, is not focused on cost efficiency alone, as Indian ship building is not competitive when compared to Chinese or Korean shipyards (who can win commercial work on their own). Their shipbuilding technology base is much lower and they have a plan to improve it. Whether we think the plan will work or not is another issue.

I suspect that their goal is to eventually develop their own naval design and building capability via their shipyards. What they are doing is giving their shipyards increasingly complex work and thereby forcing their shipyards to improve their manufacturing capabilities to manage more and more complex work. IMO, it's a top down approach to industrial base development of a strategic industry - which is not about making things at the lowest price.

 

[dragonfire]

I really don't think building in Indian shipyards save cost as I've talked before.

I think their objective, at the moment, is not focused on cost efficiency alone

Another important aspect is that of secrecy. The vessels in question are the most advanced in stealth and other technologies as far as IN is concerned. Infact that was the precise point that both GRSE and MDL raised to counter the push for making two outside India. Also in case even if 5 have to be built in India even then the existing facilities would still need to be ramped up majorly and it makes better economies of scale to use that investment over 7 ships as compared to 5. I guess a combination of these factors led the MoD to finalise its decision of building all 7 ships in India

 

[Salty Dog]

I think their objective, at the moment, is not focused on cost efficiency alone, as Indian ship building is not competitive when compared to Chinese or Korean shipyards (who can win commercial work on their own). Their shipbuilding technology base is much lower and they have a plan to improve it. Whether we think the plan will work or not is another issue.

I suspect that their goal is to eventually develop their own naval design and building capability via their shipyards. What they are doing is giving their shipyards increasingly complex work and thereby forcing their shipyards to improve their manufacturing capabilities to manage more and more complex work. IMO, it's a top down approach to industrial base development of a strategic industry - which is not about making things at the lowest price.

Excellent observation mate. That is exactly what Brazil did with their Niteroi class (Vosper Mk10) frigates in the 1980's and their HDW Type 209 submarines in the 1990´s. The results were a follow indigenous corvette (Inhaúma and Barroso classes) and the first submarines built and completed in the southern hemisphere. In both cases the projects were started in Europe where senior personnel gained experience prior to the projects' construction in Brazil. With that experience the new Scorpene SSK to be built in Brazil should be a breeze.

 

[dragonfire]

Indian shipyards will have gained knowledge on modular construction and other new techniques of shipbuilding which in the future will save precious forex apart from generating jobs and revenues for indians and indian cos. Also as i mentioned in an earlier post and as OPSSG has commented am sure there will be future orders from the IN for the shipyards GRSE and MDL and others for surface vessels as well as for subs

Cheers

 

[kay_man]

Indian shipyards will have gained knowledge on modular construction and other new techniques of shipbuilding which in the future will save precious forex apart from generating jobs and revenues for indians and indian cos. Also as i mentioned in an earlier post and as OPSSG has commented am sure there will be future orders from the IN for the shipyards GRSE and MDL and others for surface vessels as well as for subs

Cheers

but what about the time factor. the indian shipyards can only begin work on the 7 frigates after the completion of the currently under construction project 17 frigates.
on the other hand if the project begins in foreign shipyard a lot of time will be saved wont it ? a lot many years probably.

 

[dragonfire]

The Project 17 - Shivalik Class has completed one ship the INS Shivalik and two are under construction in MDL. These two ships are expected to be delivered by 2010.

The Project-17A order for 7 ships will commence only post the upgradation of facilities at both shipyards (GRSE & MDL). This upgradation will be completed only by 2011. The seven ships will be completed in 10 yrs and last delivery is expected in 2021.

Also i think MDL will simultaneously work on the Project-17 A ships as well as that of Project15 B destroyers and as such 2 ships of the Project15 A are still being constructed at MDL as we speak and will be commisioned only 2014, apart from which MDL is also where the scorpene subs are being constructed apart from other stuff

Your question raises an important point, the original sanctioned strength for Project-17 was 12 ships and only 3 were ordered so far, will the MoD issues orders for the rest 9 or are the Project-17a replacing those.

To come to your point the construction of any ship in any shipyard will take atleast 6 months to 1 year after the order is given, so in that case India is technicaly losing out on 1 yr plus the fact that simultaneous construction would again save time, however the reasons have been detailed in the earlier post, and also unlike the IAF's tottering stregths of fighters, the Indian Navy's planned acquisition programmes are quite on dot and are looking sufficent(30 under construction and around 43 being planned - surface ships - various sizes). I am only talking about surface ships whereas the IN's submarine strengths are quite pathetic

 

[A.Mookerjee]

In my opinion, the aircraft carrier's naval role will be more limited in the future. For instance, if a nation which possesses aircraft carriers, will want them to be useful in the future, then they will have to be used entirely as a base for air strikes on land targets. The aircraft carrier is going to be obsolete as a naval vessel, which will engage other naval vessels. If the Aegis platform is improved upon, then ship launched missiles will be the greatest danger to aircraft carriers. Aircraft Carriers will have to be very well protected, and very efectively protected at sea. The aircraft has in my opinion, been rendered obsolete, by the advent of much improved missiles, which can attack military targets. The aircraft can come closer to the target and launch missiles, but that event can occur, if the aircraft can launch missiles at all, and is not shot down before it can launch the missiles. The best offence, is to organise the defense to the best of one's ability. This is the reason, why the name defense has been coined for the purpose. The aircraft carrier has not sufficient armor(?) nor perhaps defences, and is a sitting duck in the sea.