Indian Army News and Discussion

[kay_man]

The Tiger is better for the Indian army.

It's more agile than most attack helicopters i think.

but it has lesser payload than other compititors and has a considerably higher price tag.

also india is developing its own light gunship which will be very agile. the indian LCH will be comparable to the tiger.so i think the more likely winner will be one of the heavier contenders i.e apache longbow or ka-50/52

 

[Firn]

How does the purchase of the 155mm howitzers go forward? Any news about the number/type of the SP and towed variants?

 

[malayphil]

The Mil Mi-28N is still a reliable upgradeable attack helicopter.
It is practically lower priced and effective compared to the expensive
Western helicopters available.

 

[OPSSG]

....

(i) the first RfP mentioned above dealt with the acquisition of 140 ultra-light howitzers;

(ii) the second RfP dealt with 180 self-propelled guns; and

(iii) the biggest RfP was for the 155mm 52-calibre towed guns. Under it, India plans to buy 400 guns off-the-shelf and licensed production of another 1,100.​

Keep in mind that in Sept 2008, it was reported that according to Julian Scopes, BAE Systems' new president of India operations, the trial requirements had impossibly broad ammunition compatibility requirements -- that the tender required that the gun fielded be capable of firing all available 155mm ammunition in the Indian Army's artillery inventory. Hence BAE had decided that it cannot participate in the tender under the current trial requirements demanded in the MOD's RfP.

The Indian army, of course, is keeping its fingers crossed since it's desperate to begin induction of these guns from 2010-2011 onwards. The Straits Times on 12 March 2009 reports of rumours that STK is the front runner with the Pegasus 155 mm/39 calibre and I wonder if this is true.

According to Aviation Week, the incompetent Indian officialdom has managed to prevent the Indian army from conducting the trails that would lead to acquisition of 140 ultra-light howitzers under the first request for proposal (RfP). As a result, the Indian army's artillery modernization plans are put on hold until it is decided whether or when the RfP will be reissued.

How incompetent? Let us set out the facts reported thus far:

(1) According to ST Kinetics, there was no official advisory from the Indian authority on the temporary suspension of business activities in relation to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) investigation of former director-general of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

(2) It was reported that the ST Kinetics spokesman Gaius Ho said:

(i) Following the ban, "ST Kinetics has since approached the authority for clarificat -ions and presented to the ministry a list of all our business activities in India. While awaiting a response from the ministry, we have offered all cooperation to assist with any investigation as appropriate and hope that the ministry will quickly review the matter and clear ST Kinetics' reputation," Ho said.

(ii) "We do not have any Joint Venture with OFB and have not signed any agreement with OFB," said Gaius Ho. ST Kinetics says OFB approached it when the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs was looking for a modern rifle, as the OFB's rifles had failed during internal trials. "ST Kinetics' SAR21 was presented for trials and evaluation. The discussion was for ST Kinetics to license its intellectual property to OFB if the MHA should decide to select the SAR21 and award a contract. There has been no decision to date," Ho explained.

* For more details, read this link which documents the infighting that prevented the Indian policemen from obtaining modern carbines (despite the well known fact that Indian police are equipped with antiquated rifles). If a similar 26/11 Mumbai attack were to take place today, the Indian police would still be equipped with the same antiquated rifles.​

(iii) "We are perturbed by the change of events and feel strongly that we have not been fairly treated as a legitimate bidder who is committed to helping the Indian MoD with its modernization efforts," Ho added. "ST Kinetics is definitely a victim of the whole situation."​

(3) The Indian defense ministry did not inform ST Kinetics of the postponement of the trials for the guns until June 5, around four days after the guns had been delivered in Mumbai.

 

[sunshin3]

According to Aviation Week, the incompetent Indian officialdom has managed to prevent the Indian army from conducting the trails that would lead to acquisition of 140 ultra-light howitzers under the first request for proposal (RfP). As a result, the Indian army's artillery modernization plans are put on hold until it is decided whether or when the RfP will be reissued.

How incompetent? Let us set out the facts reported thus far:

(1) According to ST Kinetics, there was no official advisory from the Indian authority on the temporary suspension of business activities in relation to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) investigation of former director-general of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

(2) It was reported that the ST Kinetics spokesman Gaius Ho said:

(i) Following the ban, "ST Kinetics has since approached the authority for clarificat -ions and presented to the ministry a list of all our business activities in India. While awaiting a response from the ministry, we have offered all cooperation to assist with any investigation as appropriate and hope that the ministry will quickly review the matter and clear ST Kinetics' reputation," Ho said.

(ii) "We do not have any Joint Venture with OFB and have not signed any agreement with OFB," said Gaius Ho. ST Kinetics says OFB approached it when the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs was looking for a modern rifle, as the OFB's rifles had failed during internal trials. "ST Kinetics' SAR21 was presented for trials and evaluation. The discussion was for ST Kinetics to license its intellectual property to OFB if the MHA should decide to select the SAR21 and award a contract. There has been no decision to date," Ho explained.

* For more details, read this link which documents the infighting that prevented the Indian policemen from obtaining modern carbines (despite the well known fact that Indian police are equipped with antiquated rifles). If a similar 26/11 Mumbai attack were to take place today, the Indian police would still be equipped with the same antiquated rifles.​

(iii) "We are perturbed by the change of events and feel strongly that we have not been fairly treated as a legitimate bidder who is committed to helping the Indian MoD with its modernization efforts," Ho added. "ST Kinetics is definitely a victim of the whole situation."​

(3) The Indian defense ministry did not inform ST Kinetics of the postponement of the trials for the guns until June 5, around four days after the guns had been delivered in Mumbai.

I think the CBI investigations on the OFB matters are still ongoing - so it is interesting that ST Kinetics issued such a strong public response at this stage. IIRC, there was also a scandal in the previous Indian Bofors' artillery purchase. Can anyone remember what happened?

 

[OPSSG]

I think the CBI investigations on the OFB matters are still ongoing - so it is interesting that ST Kinetics issued such a strong public response at this stage. IIRC, there was also a scandal in the previous Indian Bofors' artillery purchase. Can anyone remember what happened?

If you are interested, Wiki has a write up on the Bofors scandal.

Where to begin... Scandals swirling around defence deals have ensured the Indian Army has not inducted any single new artillery gun for over 23 years. This would give you an idea that the Indian defence procurement system is not working as it should. Even Indian reports acknowledge that the modernization of India’s armed forces is still a way off as it struggles to shake off “bureaucratic bungling, political wrangling and the more than a sniff of scandal that has characterized arms deals in the past.”

As I understand it (and I'm by no means an expert), all Indian defence acquisitions need to be processed by the Defense Procurement Board (DPB) and the DPB frowns upon single source procurement. The procurement for the first RfP should have been delayed once BAE Systems withdrew its offer of their howitzer (as BAE refused to accept the initial tender requirement that the howitzer be able to use the existing 155mm ammunition in the Indian Army's artillery inventory). With the BAE pull out, the howitzer competition became a sole-source contract negotiations with ST Kinetics.

If DPB wanted procedural compliance to their processes, I don't understand why the DPB did not stop the procurement process at that point to ask the Indian Ministry of Defence (MOD) issue a new RfP - which would have been acceptable to BAE but unacceptable for Indian Army logistics officers.

Instead, MOD proceeded to continue with the trails for ST Kinetics' Pegasus howitzer. And MOD did not inform ST Kinetics of the postponement of the trials for the guns until after the guns had been delivered in Mumbai.

I wonder why the Indian news reports seemed to be so blissfully unaware that MOD was not following it's own DPB processes for the howitzer tender.

The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) investigation of the former director-general of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) seems to be wholly unrelated to ST Kinetics. According to the article by Ajai Shukla, the SAR-21 MMS carbine actually won in the police carbine trials (against the OFB-developed AMOGH). And the complaints that led to an investigation seems to a politically motivated attempt to scuttle the SAR21MMS carbine purchase following from the police carbine trials.

While I understand that CBI investigations are on-going, they have not yet attempted to make a prima facie case to link ST Kinetics in their investigations on the former OFB director. And it seems, from the statements thus far, CBI has not contacted ST Kinetics on the matter. If indeed there is a link, CBI should be contacting Singapore anti-corruption authorities (CPIB) to assist in their investigation. That also does not seem to have happened - as any CPIB investigation on ST Kinetics would be big news in Singapore. So I don't understand what is currently going on.

Maybe someone else who understands the Indian procurement system can comment and explain the situation to me.

As far as I am concerned the biggest losers in this saga are:

(i) the Indian police (considering they are still using antiquated rifles); and
(ii) the Indian Army (who has not been able to buy new howitzers for 23 years).​

IMHO, the final score:

Indian bureaucracy - 2
Indian Army/Police -- 0​

 

[Firn]

Maybe someone else who understands the Indian procurement system can comment and explain the situation to me.

As far as I am concerned the biggest losers in this saga are:

(i) the Indian police (considering they are still using antiquated rifles); and
(ii) the Indian Army (who has not been able to buy new howitzers for 23 years).​

IMHO, the final score:

Indian bureaucracy - 2
Indian Army/Police -- 0​

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa2n6NvJXgE"]The howitzer saga[/ame]

It is certainly very hard to make sense out of the Indian procurement system. Note that in the Kargil conflict the 155mm Bofors howitzers were absolutely key to the Indian assaults on the peaks held by the opposing infantry - a good summary of the conflict is my thread about Mountain warfare.

Given the high cost-efficiency and effectivness of modern 155mm artillery compared to other fire support assets a lack of it would be payed in blood by the Indian soldiers.

 

[kay_man]

Indian Army to Induct Nag Missiles Soon: DRDO




Dated 6/7/2009
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With the third generation anti-tank Nag missile proving its lethality in the final user trials being conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan, a top missile scientist of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) expressed optimism about its induction into the Army soon.

The Army, which conducted winter trials of the missile’s land version in December, began the summer trials earlier this week. While four flight tests were completed by Thursday, three more were slated for Friday night. Talking to reporters on Friday, V. K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, R&D (missiles and strategic systems), DRDO, described the Nag as a modern and "very potent weapon system with high reliability in performance and damage."

With the all-weather system proving its capability in the latest round of trials, he hoped its production and induction would begin by the year-end.

Successful trials

The hit-to-kill missile, designed to take a unique trajectory resembling that of a moving cobra , smashed stationary targets (derelict tanks) in the four trials. While two targets were of medium range, one each was of shorter and longer range (four km).

Using an Imaging Infra-red (IIR) seeker, the missile, with fire-and-forget capability, acquired the targets and caused extensive damage to them.

Description

Nag is an all weather, top attack missile with a range of 4 to 7 km. The missile uses an 8 kg tandem HEAT warhead capable of defeating modern armour including ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour) and composite armour. Nag uses Imaging Infra-Red (IIR) guidance with day and night capability. Mode of launch for the IIR seeker is LOBL (Lock On Before Launch). The missile has a complete fiberglass structure and weighs around 42 kg.

 

[kay_man]

Indian Army Inducts DRDOs NBC Weapons Detection Vehicle

Dated 6/7/2009
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The Army has for the first time inducted a DRDO-built, low-cost vehicle to detect attacks on the country using nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) weapons.

The indigenous vehicle, developed by DRDO’s five labs, will now be used in reconnaissance missions to detect nuclear radiations, and chemical or biological agents in the environment inside the country’s territory, DRDO officials said here on Sunday.

Based on a BMP-IIK Infantry Fighting Vehicle chassis, the vehicle would cost the Indian defence establishment a fourth of that of the imported varieties, saving the country’s precious foreign exchange, the officials said without giving details.

The BMP-IIK, which has a cross-country capability and adequate shield for the crew members, was fitted with nuclear, chemical, biological, meteorological and positional sensors for monitoring any contamination.

The vehicle would be used for demarcating the contaminated zones with a flag-marking system and samples of soil and water collected using an in-built scooping device.

It could also display and store NBC contamination data in its control console and transmit it to the Army’s Command Headquarters on request through Communication Link Controller and Star-V radio set.


Please provide the link/source and also give your own comments or the posts will be deleted.

Thanks!

 

[D. Cox]

Cooperation nonetheless

I dont believe there is any collaboration of Indian army with US in these projects. The only US made thing can be microprocessor chips in handheld devices which we dont have the capability to fabricate apart from that nothing US, I have seen these products made by DRDO 2 years back. No israeli collaboration either in these projects as far as i know atleast 3 years back.
Cheers,

This may be true but the level of mil to mil exercise cooperation (much of it noted here) does signal a strategic initiative aimed at both balancing a peer competitor of the US (China) and increasing friendly relations with India which a a lynchpin in a comprehensive approach to cross-border problems revolving around the AFG conflict.

 

[SABRE]

Thread now open but under strict scrutiny

 

[Rythm]

Does anyone have info on the casspir-clone produced by OFB? In particular numbers produced, and who has recieved them. AFAIK, there has only been produced a small amount yet, and that these have gone to Kaschmir state police?

 

[dragonfire]

Does anyone have info on the casspir-clone produced by OFB? In particular numbers produced, and who has recieved them. AFAIK, there has only been produced a small amount yet, and that these have gone to Kaschmir state police?

The Casspir type Indian vehicle known as the MPV is made by OFB. They were given orders for about 150 of those, for the Indian Army, Paramillitary forces like the CRPF (Central Reserve Police Force). It is being used in the North East as well as in the J&K region. It was also for state police forces fighting Naxal issues - Jharkand as well as Andhra Pradesh as well as Chattisgargh if i rememeber correctly(exact nos are not known)

Out of the reconditioned second hand Casspir vehicles from SA (255 accquird in three batches) and from the Indian MPV about 240 was given to Nepal

 

[kay_man]

In response to chinese long range millitary excercise held in 2009 , India-US step up co-operation.

Monday, 24 August 2009
US and Indian troops to begin training together for war

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th August 09


Since 2004, American GIs and Indian jawans have trained together to combat terrorists and insurgents. Now, the two armies are about to begin training to fight a war together.


Underlining the growing military-to-military relationship, a US Army battalion group of several hundred soldiers and some 50 frontline Stryker armoured vehicles, will travel to India in October and train with Indian strike formation units at the Babina Field Firing Ranges near Jhansi. This exercise, named Yudh Abhyas 2009, will include live firing by heavy combat vehicles.


It will be the first time mechanised units of an Indian strike corps, which bases its power on T-72 and T-90 tanks, BMP-II infantry combat vehicles, missiles and 155-mm medium artillery guns, will train or share expertise with any foreign army. The Indian units taking part will be selected from the Jhansi-headquartered 31 Armoured Division.


The annual Yudh Abhyas exercises (which US soldiers are told is pronounced as “You da Boss”) kicked off in March 2004, when 60 Indian jawans and 55 US soldiers from Alaska jointly raided mock insurgent hideouts in the jungles of Mizoram.


Since then, Yudh Abhyas has expanded each year in size, scope and complexity. Last November, in Yudh Abhyas 08, an Indian Air Force IL-76 aircraft had flown a company (120 soldiers) of Indian jawans to Hawaii for training in counter-insurgency with US soldiers of the US Pacific Command. Their simulated operations were controlled by India’s 49 Infantry Brigade, which set up a command post in Hawaii as part of the exercise.


But Yudh Abhyas 2009 will impart a different trajectory to the military-to-military relationship. This is no longer about raids on insurgent hideouts or terrorist camps; strike corps training is for fighting a full-scale war together. This year, American and Indian mechanised forces will synchronise operations, planning, manoeuvring and firing together to capture a simulated objective.


Senior Indian Army officers have confirmed to Business Standard that the US Army Stryker vehicles and crews will be transported to India by sea. They will come from the US Pacific Command, or US PACOM, which is headquartered in Hawaii and which oversees US military interests from the US west coast to the western border of India.


Starting from Pakistan, and extending across West Asia, the US Central Command (CENTCOM) is responsible for American military interests. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are under the jurisdiction of CENTCOM.


Approached for their comments on Yudh Abhyas 09, the Hawaii-based USPACOM has not responded. But speaking off the record, senior US Army officers have expressed satisfaction at what they term a “quantum jump” in the US-India military relationship.


One US officer notes, “Singapore armoured units have come earlier to Babina to fire their tanks since they don’t have the space to practise in Singapore. Similarly, Singapore air force fighter aircraft fire in Pokhran and artillery units fire near Nashik. But this is not just about firing. Yudh Abhyas 09 will see the two armies practising how to fight a full-scale war together. And the engagement will only grow closer.”

 

[kay_man]

Indian Army inducts first indigenous T-90 tanks
Indo-Asian News Service
Avadi, August 24, 2009
First Published: 19:24 IST(24/8/2009)
Last Updated: 19:25 IST(24/8/2009)


The first batch T-90 tanks manufactured in India under license from Russia were on Monday handed over to the Indian Army.

After a delay of one year, the first batch rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi. The batch of 10 tanks was inducted into the army at a function in Avadi by Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju.

The licensed production of the tanks has been kicked off only after a stalemate with Russia over transfer of technology was resolved.

After concern expressed by the Indian establishment over delay in execution of various defence deals, including T-90 tanks, Russia has reassured India that the delivery will now be on schedule.
-- hindustan times

The Bhishma will use French thermal imagers and improved radio packs which can withstand high temperatures.

--dna news

 

[eckherl]

Indian Army inducts first indigenous T-90 tanks
Indo-Asian News Service
Avadi, August 24, 2009
First Published: 19:24 IST(24/8/2009)
Last Updated: 19:25 IST(24/8/2009)


The first batch T-90 tanks manufactured in India under license from Russia were on Monday handed over to the Indian Army.

After a delay of one year, the first batch rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi. The batch of 10 tanks was inducted into the army at a function in Avadi by Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju.

The licensed production of the tanks has been kicked off only after a stalemate with Russia over transfer of technology was resolved.

After concern expressed by the Indian establishment over delay in execution of various defence deals, including T-90 tanks, Russia has reassured India that the delivery will now be on schedule.
-- hindustan times

The Bhishma will use French thermal imagers and improved radio packs which can withstand high temperatures.

--dna news

It is about time inregards to T-90S. With different alliances being formed between countries Russia can no longer play games with its weapons deals and better start sucking up to their primary purchasers or someone else will gladly move in.

 

[Rythm]

It is about time inregards to T-90S. With different alliances being formed between countries Russia can no longer play games with its weapons deals and better start sucking up to their primary purchasers or someone else will gladly move in.

These new tanks are T-90M and not T-90S, correct?

 

[kay_man]

These new tanks are T-90M and not T-90S, correct?

Actually the Bhishma is the uprated t-90s( export version of the t-90 ).

 

[Rythm]

Ok, thanks.

As i understand it, Indian Army is gettitng new uniforms, helmets and body armour.
Can someone post a picture or link to a site with info?

 

[dragonfire]

Not a Single Attack Helicopter

Isnt it strange that the worlds second largest standing army and one which faces a lot terrorist and millitant as well as naxal activities doesnt have a single Attack Helicopter in its inventory. Infact in the entire country of a billion plus people there are only 20 Attack Helos the Mi-35 which is with the IAF. These are based in Sqdns 104 and 125 - two sqdns of 10 each. Ofcourse the Army has 'Armed' Mi-8 and Mi-17s, but it is not a attack helicopter in the strickest sense but rather a armed tactical helicopter. Wonder why the govt does not want to order more than 22 attack choppers. Is it an Army order or a IAF one ? Is it a good idea to give an order of 65 attack choppers to HAL on a yet to fly model. Wouldnt attack choppers be effective in the Anti-Armoured role in CAS role etc. I think the Indian Army thinks of choppers only in terms of transportation. Any ideas anyone when the order is going to be issued.