Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Salty Dog]

To come to your point the construction of any ship in any shipyard will take atleast 6 months to 1 year after the order is given, so in that case India is technicaly losing out on 1 yr plus the fact that simultaneous construction would again save time, however the reasons have been detailed in the earlier post, . . . .

I suppose you meant 6 months to 1 year to begin construction.

 

[dragonfire]

Hi SD, tnks for the correction so - Sorry and Thanks

DefTalk was very tempremental today, kept loggin me out every miniute

 

[riksavage]

The following article discusses the spiralling costs of the converted Russian Carrier, by the time they have finished it will cost almost as much as a single UK QE class. I can't see what India is getting out of this deal, you are not benefitting from ship yard upgrades or transfer of design and manufacturing skills. You could have gone for a brand-new design built in Europe capable of launching STOVL or Russian fixed wing planes. Even when complete its life-span will be limited, again the UK QE is expected to last 50 years, the upgraded Russian ship will be lucky to last 30.

As the article states it's too late to cancel, but you would have thought the Russian's would be subjected to penalty clauses for late completion.

Soviet Carrier Turns Into India's White Elephant - Defense News

 

[dragonfire]

I have often read one thing about Indian Defence procurements, it's that the Indian requirements and specifications constantly change and that this leads to revision of costs, escalating costs and delays. This was the case for indegenious deals as well - eg. the MBT Arjun and the LCA Tejas

 

[dragonfire]

Russian shipyard seeks $60 mln loan to complete Indian frigates

KALININGRAD, August 5 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Yantar shipyard is negotiating a $60 million loan to enable it to complete the construction of three frigates for the Indian Navy, the company director said on Wednesday.

Russia is building three Project 11356 Krivak IV class guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy under a $1.6 billion contract signed in July, 2006.

Igor Orlov said the shipyard had previously taken out a $110 million loan from Russian national development bank Vnesheconombank (VEB) but was now forced to seek an additional $60 million loan due to "financial constraints."

Russian shipyard seeks $60 mln loan to complete Indian frigates | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
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- The major problem Yantar is stating is the fluctuating Rouble-Dollar exchange rates

Hope this doesnt delay the delivery, the problem being India might give the assistance required but might end up doing it after 3-6 months by which time the delivery schedule could get skewed

 

[dragonfire]

CCS clears choppers for Navy

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has approved purchase of five new Russian-made Kamov 31 early warning helicopters for the Indian Navy.

The choppers, fitted with an airborne, rotating radar that can track multiple targets in air as well as on sea surface, will join the existing fleet of nine similar helicopters that were purchased earlier

CCS clears choppers for Navy, projects in Arunachal
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The urgent acquisition for the early warning helos are in line with the Indian Millitary's perception that there is a possibility of other sea based terrorist and other threats, there have also been reports from the coast guard and navy of acquisitions of fast intercept and attack crafts. Also the regional Police forces are also investing in Coastal Police stations and patrol crafts. The navy is also apparently on the search of a vessel purportedly carrying terrorists

 

[OPSSG]

CCS clears choppers for Navy

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has approved purchase of five new Russian-made Kamov 31 early warning helicopters for the Indian Navy.

The choppers, fitted with an airborne, rotating radar that can track multiple targets in air as well as on sea surface, will join the existing fleet of nine similar helicopters that were purchased earlier

IMO, that's an important addition to the Indian navy, whose significance is overlooked by many in the Indian main stream press. This acquisition coupled with India's eight Boeing P8-I acquisition will significantly enhance the Indian Navy's ISR capabilities. My only concern is the tightness of the C4I integration.

 

[dragonfire]

Yes and if you noticed the other steps being taken I have mentioned in the comments, then a sense of urgency is noticed for coastal protection and detection of possible threats, also apart from those i also heard the BSF (Border Security Force) has ordered for some floating border outposts. Ka-31 will be a major asset in detection and identification of possible threats from great distances (fighter type threats at 100-200 km) and surface ships at a horizon of 200 km from altitudes of 10K Ft

The co-ordinates, speed and heading of a target gathered by the radar are transmitted via an encoded radio data-link channel to a ship-borne or shore-based command post.

This encoded radio data-link channel will introduce airborne network centric warfare to the Indian Navy, due to its advanced real-time capability. The secure data-link and onboard communication systems have a range of 150 km, at altitudes between 4950 and 11,000 feet. The Indian Navy's Ka-31s are also being fitted out with the Abris GPS featuring a 12-channel receiver. The GPS is designed & developed by Kronstadt - a firm in St. Petersburg, Russia. Abris will provide all satellite navigation data. Other Kronstadt systems featured in the Ka-31 helicopter will include navigational equipment for digital terrain maps, ground-proximity warning, obstacle approach warning, auto-navigation of pre-programmed routes, flight stabilization and auto homing onto and landing at the parent carrier/base and information concerning the helicopter's tactical situation.

 

[dragonfire]

Indian Naval air base in Oman to tackle piracy

In its bid to tackle the problem of piracy in the Gulf of Aden, India is to set up a naval air base in Muscat, and the Omanese authorities are believed to have cleared India’s proposal in this regard. This is not surprising, according to Capt. P.V.K. Mohan, Chairman of National Shipping Board. After all, India took the lead in meeting the challenge thrown up by the piracy in that region.

The Hindu Business Line : Naval air base to tackle piracy
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Has anyone heard about this, this wasnt reported widely. Would appreciate inputs from anyone who know what kind of assets are going to be deployed from the base. If this is for real then it would be the secon Indian Milliary base on foriegn soil

 

[StevoJH]

Indian Naval air base in Oman to tackle piracy

In its bid to tackle the problem of piracy in the Gulf of Aden, India is to set up a naval air base in Muscat, and the Omanese authorities are believed to have cleared India’s proposal in this regard. This is not surprising, according to Capt. P.V.K. Mohan, Chairman of National Shipping Board. After all, India took the lead in meeting the challenge thrown up by the piracy in that region.

The Hindu Business Line : Naval air base to tackle piracy
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Has anyone heard about this, this wasnt reported widely. Would appreciate inputs from anyone who know what kind of assets are going to be deployed from the base. If this is for real then it would be the secon Indian Milliary base on foriegn soil

Two questions?
1) India took the lead? I thought NATO and the EU took the lead.
2) Why Masqat which is a long way away? Why not ask the french if you can base aircraft in their Dijbouti base?

 

[dragonfire]

Two questions?
1) India took the lead? I thought NATO and the EU took the lead.
2) Why Masqat which is a long way away? Why not ask the french if you can base aircraft in their Dijbouti base?

1. The combined task force 150 has been in the horn of Africa region since 2001 or early 2002 atleast and since 2006 it has been conducting anti piracy functions as per wiki the task force comprised of assets from various nation including India since 2005.

However apart from the existing assets at the time the Indian vessels were the first to reach the region post the UNSC resolution 1838 "calling on nations with vessels in the area to apply military force to repress the acts of piracy" issued on 7th Oct'08. The Indian Navy vessels reached the area on 23rd Oct'08

Irrespective of the above the line of taking lead, India has responded quite well for supporting and conducting anti-piracy missions

2. The US already has a base in Dijibouti which is run from the former French Foriegn Legion facilities. This was established since Oct'02 in support of the US war on terror.

 

[swerve]

After all, India took the lead in meeting the challenge thrown up by the piracy in that region.

I remember arguments on Bharat Rakshak in which many posters argued for India continuing its long-established policy of not getting involved, when Indian involvement was first mooted. Think about that for a moment. How could such a debate even have been possible, if India had taken the lead?

To pick an arbitrary date, the date of a paricular UN resolution, & to say that because India sent ships soon after that date it "took the lead" is downright dishonest. Others had sent ships to reinforce TF150 long before that, specifically to fight piracy. There was a UN security council resolution on 2nd June (4 months earlier), authorising ships to enter Somali territorial waters. India didn't react to that. Nor did it react to the 2007 IMO resolution, nor to earlier calls for international action.

A rather slow follower, not a leader.

 

[dragonfire]

I remember arguments on Bharat Rakshak in which many posters argued for India continuing its long-established policy of not getting involved, when Indian involvement was first mooted. Think about that for a moment. How could such a debate even have been possible, if India had taken the lead?

To pick an arbitrary date, the date of a paricular UN resolution, & to say that because India sent ships soon after that date it "took the lead" is downright dishonest. Others had sent ships to reinforce TF150 long before that, specifically to fight piracy. There was a UN security council resolution on 2nd June (4 months earlier), authorising ships to enter Somali territorial waters. India didn't react to that. Nor did it react to the 2007 IMO resolution, nor to earlier calls for international action.

A rather slow follower, not a leader.

On the onset let me emphasize that the line about India taking lead is from the article and not from me personaly - the emphasis of the post being the story about India going to have a Naval air base based out of Muscat, Oman.

India was actualy part of the TF-150 as early as 2005. The UNSC go-ahead for the Indian Navy was given only by Nov'08 (or was announced so by BBC in Nov'08). The somalian permission for the IN to conduct "hot-pursuit" was also given around the same time.

At the 101st IMO meeting India had forwarded a proposal for a UN Peacekeeping force under a unified command

"The Indian delegation urged IMO to take urgent steps to provide assistance and security to international shipping irrespective of flag, nationality of seamen etc of the vessels. The call was supported by many other member-countries,'' said an official.

Shipping secretary APVN Sarma told the IMO council meeting that concerted action was needed since over 12% of the entire world's seaborne oil trade, around 50% of the dry bulk transportation and 33% of container trade passes through this vital sea lane.

Highlighting the problems, Sarma said the ongoing "disjointed efforts'' being made by several countries on their own had led to some navies laying down priorities in giving assistance to only those ships flying a particular flag or having seaman of a particular nationality.

Besides which, would appreciate if the Indian anti-piracy efforts are not sullied. India had also indicated that it would like to deploy 4 more assets in the area.

 

[swerve]

...

India was actualy part of the TF-150 as early as 2005. The UNSC go-ahead for the Indian Navy was given only by Nov'08 (or was announced so by BBC in Nov'08). The somalian permission for the IN to conduct "hot-pursuit" was also given around the same time.

At the 101st IMO meeting India had forwarded a proposal for a UN Peacekeeping force under a unified command

Besides which, would appreciate if the Indian anti-piracy efforts are not sullied. India had also indicated that it would like to deploy 4 more assets in the area.

India did not, & does not, need UNSC permission to act against pirates in international waters. To the contrary: action against pirates in international waters is a duty laid on all navies & law enforcement bodies, at all times.

Somalia granted general permission for hot pursuit in its territorial waters to all participants in CTF 150 before the October 2008 UN resolution earlier mentioned, in about May 2008, IIRC. The UN resolution was in response to a Somali request made in September 2008. There was no need for specific permission for Indian ships.

Political proposals regarding changing the organisation & leadership of an existing operation do not count as "Taking a lead".

Having checked, I discover that you are correct in stating that the Indian navy contributed to CTF 150 in 2005. I therefore withdraw the word "slow" from the remark about "a rather slow follower". All else remains true.

 

[dragonfire]

"Taking a lead".

Having checked, I discover that you are correct in stating that the Indian navy contributed to CTF 150 in 2005. I therefore withdraw the word "slow" from the remark about "a rather slow follower". All else remains true.

Again i remphasize that the word was from the article and not contributed, pls take it up with Capt. P.V.K. Mohan, Chairman of National Shipping Board, India.

However I would also like to point out (based on limited research) that Indian Naval assets arrived prior to the russian and chinese assets.

Also swerve, the CTF-150 was not constituted for Anti-Piracy missions was it. It was primarily an anti-terrorist effort

Combined Task Force 150 (CTF-150) is a multinational coalition naval task force with logistics facilities at Djibouti established to monitor, inspect, board, and stop suspect shipping to pursue the War on Terrorism and in the Horn of Africa region (HOA) (includes operations in the North Arabia Sea to support Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF), and operations in the Indian Ocean) to support Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa (OEF-HOA).

The first anti-pirate acts by the CTF-150 was not until 2006 and therefore i can for argument's sake say that India had already contributed to the CTF-150's efforts prior to its anti-piracy acts since India had it's presence in 2005. Please dont be quick to place labels. This is my last post on this topic

 

[swerve]

Again i remphasize that the word was from the article and not contributed, pls take it up with Capt. P.V.K. Mohan, Chairman of National Shipping Board, India.

You said the following in your post, without presenting it as a quote from the article, although on reading the article it can be seen to be a quote. I suggest that if you wish to dissociate yourself from it, you put it in quotes. As presented, they appear to be your own words.

In its bid to tackle the problem of piracy in the Gulf of Aden, India is to set up a naval air base in Muscat, and the Omanese authorities are believed to have cleared India’s proposal in this regard. This is not surprising, according to Capt. P.V.K. Mohan, Chairman of National Shipping Board. After all, India took the lead in meeting the challenge thrown up by the piracy in that region.

I also note that you have attempted to defend the claim. You can't run with the hare & hunt with the hounds: if it isn't your opinion, why 1) present it without comment & 2) defend it?

 

[dragonfire]

This is my first post - it was a news item about how India is setting up an Naval Air Base in Muscat, Oman

Indian Naval air base in Oman to tackle piracy

In its bid to tackle the problem of piracy in the Gulf of Aden, India is to set up a naval air base in Muscat, and the Omanese authorities are believed to have cleared India’s proposal in this regard. This is not surprising, according to Capt. P.V.K. Mohan, Chairman of National Shipping Board. After all, India took the lead in meeting the challenge thrown up by the piracy in that region.

The Hindu Business Line : Naval air base to tackle piracy
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Has anyone heard about this, this wasnt reported widely. Would appreciate inputs from anyone who know what kind of assets are going to be deployed from the base. If this is for real then it would be the secon Indian Milliary base on foriegn soil

If you read the post it becomes clear that the first para is from the article - followed by the link to the article and then there is a clear demarcation in terms of space as well with the usage of a

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after which i have made my personal comments. The same style i use for all similar posts as well it follows the DefTalk's directions on news reports, single para from the news item, link for the same plus user comments.Plus if you had read the article in the first place this altercation could have been avoided

This is my second post as a reply to SteveoJH's post - again I have quoted that

Irrespective of the above the line of taking lead, India has responded quite well for supporting and conducting anti-piracy missions

Not again trying to emphasize on who took lead - Ok


Now this is my reposnse to your post

On the onset let me emphasize that the line about India taking lead is from the article and not from me personaly - the emphasis of the post being the story about India going to have a Naval air base based out of Muscat, Oman.

Again i have tried to make you understand that it was from the article and is not something i have tried to say personaly - the jist of the article was if you remember about something else

---

Now about being defensive

SteveoJH's was the first comment on the taking lead part and my response was merely to point out the facts as it were, and mind you it was not for chest thumping purposes. Only facts, giving due credit to the CTF-150 as being there well before anybody else

You on the other hand came out with labels which were not necessary at all

A rather slow follower, not a leader.

This was provocative. In my next post I requested you not too sully India's efforts

Besides which, would appreciate if the Indian anti-piracy efforts are not sullied. India had also indicated that it would like to deploy 4 more assets in the area.

but to no avail, you in your next post chose to rephrase it to

"a rather slow follower".

again choosing to give derogatory labels rather than simply letting it go (esp because this about a positive action than inaction). Yet again despite the fact that i proved my point as well as offered a way out by indicating an end to this unnessecary diatribe by stating that it would be my last post on the topic.

Yet you had to come back for one more

you put it in quotes. As presented, they appear to be your own words

There was a clear demarcation as is explained above

why 1) present it without comment & 2) defend it?

There was a comment - cleary mentioned and the defensive posts did not start till you decide to place labels. Remember I am an Indian and I will have to defend negative comments against India.

Jai Hind

 

[kay_man]

Indian Navy - 3 Carriers or more

Gearbox problems delay the Car Nicobar class Fast Attack Craft: Coastal security faces shipbuilding delays

By Ajai Shukla
Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata
Business Standard, 18th August 09


India’s coastal and maritime problems are growing faster than the fleet of ships needed to deal with them. Here in Kolkata, at Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE), two newly built patrol ships have lain for two months, waiting for collection by the Indian Navy. But the admirals insist: first meet the navy’s performance requirements.


Meanwhile, Defence Minister AK Antony travels on Thursday to the Maldives to extend India’s maritime security network to that island nation. And an unauthorised North Korean freighter, espied lurking in Indian waters off the Andaman Islands early this month, underscores the urgent need for more patrolling


GRSE, India’s second-biggest defence shipyard, got a Rs 514 crore order in March 2006 to build ten Water Jet propelled Fast Attack Craft (WJ-FACs), whose high-tech German MTU water-jet engines could propel these sleek vessels through the water at 65 kmph, tackling threats along the coastline for up to 3600 km without refuelling.


After the Mumbai attacks on 26/11, the need for such craft was felt more than ever. The first two WJ-FACs --- INS Car Nicobar and INS Chetlat --- were press-ganged into the navy in February 09, even though they were restricted to just 50 kmph by flawed gearboxes supplied by Kirloskar Pneumatic Company Limited (KPCL).


But now the navy has refused to accept the next two WJ-FACs --- INS Kora Divh and INS Cheriyam --- until KPCL rectifies the transmission systems that it had developed and supplied to GRSE.


Rear Admiral KC Sekhar, GRSE Chairman and Managing Director, told Business Standard that KPCL had already supplied 30 defective gearboxes (three go into each WJ-FAC), but had now taken some back to diagnose and resolve the problem.


“I expect three gearboxes to come back very shortly”, said Admiral Sekhar, “And we have a commitment from KPCL that they will be responsible for their product. Any additional expenditure incurred will be their responsibility.”


KPCL is unlikely, however, to pick up the tab for the growing expenditure on trials. And GRSE supervisors say the morale of workers --- who are pushed hard to get vessels ready for on-time delivery --- suffers when buyers reject a completed ship.


KPCL has not responded to repeated requests for their comments.


As coastal security grows in importance, the Indian Navy and the Coast Guard are acquiring greater numbers of patrol vessels and attack craft. These smaller, lightly armed vessels, like the Car Nicobar Class WJ-FACs, are lighter, cheaper, easier to build, and better suited for coastal surveillance than the capital warships --- corvettes, frigates and destroyers --- that are designed and built for war.


Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh, who until recently commanded the Eastern Naval Command in Vishakhapatnam points to the growing importance of coastal security: “The term ‘a balanced Navy’ has now acquired a different meaning altogether; a ‘brown water’ coastal force is as relevant and essential as a ‘blue water’ force.


In recent years, the navy has built 7 Sukanya Class offshore patrol vessels (OPVs), one of which was sold to Sri Lanka; 4 Trinkat Class fast patrol vessels (FPVs), one of which was given to Maldives and one to Seychelles; 7 Super Dvora Mark II class FPVs; and 4 Bangaram Class fast attack craft (FACs). In addition, four Saryu Class offshore patrol vessels are being built by Goa Shipyard Limited.


The 10 Car Nicobar class WJ-FACs, with their ability to react quickly at high speeds, are purpose designed for coastal security. These 50 metres long, 600-tonne vessels are crewed by 35 sailors. Each WJ-FAC is armed with a 30 mm CRN-91 automatic cannon that can engage targets up to 3 kilometers away.

 

[dragonfire]

Reg the IN Sea Harriers

The dozen or so IN Sea Harriers are going to be active till 2023-25 post their currently underway (or completed) upgrades initiated by a CCS decision in 2005. The harriers are deployed òn the INS Virrat which is going to be decommisioned by 2015 (prev date being 2012). Would invite inputs on the redployment of the IN Sea Harriers.

The INS Jalshwa (former USS Trenton) can be used for deploying the Harriers under special circumstances, having a flight deck. However am not sure how many can be used ?, as well as if it is capable of deploying the Sea Harriers as the they are deployed on the STOVL config on the INS Virrat whereas the on the INS Jalashwa it can operate only in the VTOL config. Another question arises of what will be done with the six Sea King helos on board the Jalshwa (does have any internal hangars etc)

Apart from the INS Jalshwa what are the other options for deploying the Harriers from sea. I doubt (using guesstimate ) if the Jalshwa can be used for more than 3 harriers at a time. So the question arrises on what will happen to the rest 10 harriers. Should India acquire something of the sort of Tarawa Class / Wasp Class or may be even something like the Juan Carlos or maybe even the Mistral class.

 

[Salty Dog]

Reg the IN Sea Harriers

The dozen or so IN Sea Harriers are going to be active till 2023-25 post their currently underway (or completed) upgrades initiated by a CCS decision in 2005. The harriers are deployed òn the INS Virrat which is going to be decommisioned by 2015 (prev date being 2012). Would invite inputs on the redployment of the IN Sea Harriers.

The INS Jalshwa (former USS Trenton) can be used for deploying the Harriers under special circumstances, having a flight deck. However am not sure how many can be used ?, as well as if it is capable of deploying the Sea Harriers as the they are deployed on the STOVL config on the INS Virrat whereas the on the INS Jalashwa it can operate only in the VTOL config. Another question arises of what will be done with the six Sea King helos on board the Jalshwa (does have any internal hangars etc)

Apart from the INS Jalshwa what are the other options for deploying the Harriers from sea. I doubt (using guesstimate ) if the Jalshwa can be used for more than 3 harriers at a time. So the question arrises on what will happen to the rest 10 harriers. Should India acquire something of the sort of Tarawa Class / Wasp Class or may be even something like the Juan Carlos or maybe even the Mistral class.

Unfortunately an IN Sea Harrier crashed recently killing it's pilot. It is possible that an event like this can cancel a entire flight program especially if it is old and expensive. The Brazilian Air Force operated P-16 (S-2) aircraft from the aircraft carrier Minas Gerais until a fatal crash in the early 1990´s, after which the entire P-16 program was canceled.