Heavy armour for Afghanistan?

[Grim901]

I was just wondering whether deploying Challenger 2's and AS90's to Afghanistan would be a good idea for the British? I know that at one or 2 nations have Leopard 2's deployed, are they effective and would differences between Helmand and the rest of Afghanistan make MBT's unsuitable there.

I can't see any reason why not to deploy AS90's either, they'd be a useful asset.

So to sum up, are there any reason outside of Mr Brown not wanting to commit more resources to Afghanistan that Challenger's and AS90's aren't in theatre? Are any other nations planning on deploying heavy armour and if not, why not?

 

[Firn]

I was just wondering whether deploying Challenger 2's and AS90's to Afghanistan would be a good idea for the British? I know that at one or 2 nations have Leopard 2's deployed, are they effective and would differences between Helmand and the rest of Afghanistan make MBT's unsuitable there.

I can't see any reason why not to deploy AS90's either, they'd be a useful asset.

So to sum up, are there any reason outside of Mr Brown not wanting to commit more resources to Afghanistan that Challenger's and AS90's aren't in theatre? Are any other nations planning on deploying heavy armour and if not, why not?

According to the first-hand users the Leo I and Leopard II have proven to be excellent assets in the field on many occasion. The PzH 2000 seems to have done also very well, as the 155mm howitzer M777. The IFV Marder had recently his first baptism of fire. So there seem to be some strong arguments for sending heavy armour and artillery into Afghanistan. Of course the CH2 and the AS90 come with some baggage,both logistical and political wise.

 

[riksavage]

According to the first-hand users the Leo I and Leopard II have proven to be excellent assets in the field on many occasion. The PzH 2000 seems to have done also very well, as the 155mm howitzer M777. The IFV Marder had recently his first baptism of fire. So there seem to be some strong arguments for sending heavy armour and artillery into Afghanistan. Of course the CH2 and the AS90 come with some baggage,both logistical and political wise.

The UK battle group is supported by Leopards crewed by Danes. Challenger crews will be allocated to crewing the MRAP's, leaving the infantry free to focus on dismounted action. 105mm LG & MLRS provides support to the UK FOB's. Cav will continue to crew CVRT until the replacement FRES recce arrives - now a priority. No need for Chally II or AS90. The Helmand Green zone is not suitable for heavy armour, other than providing ad-hoc direct fire support.

 

[Waylander]

I was just wondering whether deploying Challenger 2's and AS90's to Afghanistan would be a good idea for the British? I know that at one or 2 nations have Leopard 2's deployed, are they effective and would differences between Helmand and the rest of Afghanistan make MBT's unsuitable there.

I can't see any reason why not to deploy AS90's either, they'd be a useful asset.

So to sum up, are there any reason outside of Mr Brown not wanting to commit more resources to Afghanistan that Challenger's and AS90's aren't in theatre? Are any other nations planning on deploying heavy armour and if not, why not?

Denmark operates a platoon of Leopard 2A5DK and I wouldn't wonder if they are going to bring in some CV9035DK to replace some of the M113s as soon as they are in full service.
Canada operates an overstrength company of Leopard 2A6MCAN and IIRC they also retain some Leopard 1C2 in country because they like the mineplugs they have for them.
The dutch operate a battery of three PzH2000.
The British already have MLRS in country.
Norway operated CV9030NO when they formed the QRF in the north (Also using them in combat) and Germany operates four Marder also in the north (Which btw are engaged in combat for the first time as the ANA and northern ISAF forces conduct an offensive mission to drive the Taliban out of the Kunduz region).
IIRC Sweden also plans to bring in some of their CV9040.

The northern regions severely limit the use of heavy and big vehicles compared to the south.
But in the south heavy AFVs are defenitely usable. The Danish and Canadian forces operate in the same region and often together with the british forces. And the Leopards more than often proved their worth.
IMHO it is a question of philosophy and doctrine.
The Americans also never deployed MBTs to Afghanistan which also makes me wonder as the Abrams proved it's worth as a support platform in Iraq.
The Canadians and Danes (And everybody who got supported by them) are full of praise for the MBTs and also experienced that tracked vehicles more than often can go where wheeled vehicles like the LAVs can't.
There is just not much the guerillas can do against MBTs apart from some really big IEDs. They lack other sufficient AT-capabilities and often enough the tanks give the battle group the ability to spot and touch the Taliban at big distances, with a high accuracy and with a quick reaction time.
No other system can give you this.

Artillery on the other hand is different.
The Canadians, Brits and Americans operate towed artillery batteries in the south and I assume that the Dutch brought in their PzH2000 as they don't have anything else. The Dutch SPHs don't operate much different than the towed guns in the region as they also fire from fixed positions most of the time.
But they also used the mobility of the PzH2000 to support some operations further away which would be more difficult to do with towed guns.

I fully understand why they don't bring in SPHs like the AS90 but I do not understand why there are no heavy tracked AFVs in use with either the Brits or Americans.

 

[Grim901]

Do we not even have Warriors deployed?

Thanks for the answers though guys, very informative.

It also raises questions about FRES-U.

Why are they designing a wheeled vehicle with little in the way of IED protection when clearly the opposite is needed. At the very least they should split the buy into a wheeled and tracked variant. I don't see wh ywe are planning on buying any AFV's that don't have some MRAP style protection. It can't be that hard to integrate it into an AFV type vehicle. FRES seems like the perfect oppurtunity for that and it's being wasted.

Any reasoning behind the FRES-U decisions, apart from that no one has bothered to rethink it since the Cold War?

 

[Lopex]

The warrior is in Afghanistan. Is has proved very useful.

Do we not even have Warriors deployed?

Thanks for the answers though guys, very informative.

It also raises questions about FRES-U.

Why are they designing a wheeled vehicle with little in the way of IED protection when clearly the opposite is needed. At the very least they should split the buy into a wheeled and tracked variant. I don't see wh ywe are planning on buying any AFV's that don't have some MRAP style protection. It can't be that hard to integrate it into an AFV type vehicle. FRES seems like the perfect oppurtunity for that and it's being wasted.

Any reasoning behind the FRES-U decisions, apart from that no one has bothered to rethink it since the Cold War?

 

[Waylander]

A shame on me, I totally forgot the Warriors.
IIRC it also took some time till the British MoD was willing to send them in.

They also emphasize the point that heavy AFVs are able to operate with success in southern Afghanistan.

 

[Grim901]

A shame on me, I totally forgot the Warriors.
IIRC it also took some time till the British MoD was willing to send them in.

They also emphasize the point that heavy AFVs are able to operate with success in southern Afghanistan.

I was about to melt down when I thought we didn't even have Warriors there. It's good we have at least one decent tracked AFV in theatre, I can't get the picture of a Canadian LAV completely stuck in the mud with some annoyed looking soldiers stood around it out of my head.

 

[kato]

A shame on me, I totally forgot the Warriors.

And the overstrength Marder platoon in Mazar-i-Sharif?

First combat mission for that platoon last sunday, btw.

 

[Waylander]

...Norway operated CV9030NO when they formed the QRF in the north (Also using them in combat) and Germany operates four Marder also in the north (Which btw are engaged in combat for the first time as the ANA and northern ISAF forces conduct an offensive mission to drive the Taliban out of the Kunduz region). ...

Ahem...

 

[kato]

Ah, hidden somewhere in the middle. Sorry.

 

[battlensign]

Well......

......at least you guys have heavy IFVs to send............

Brett.

P.S don't mind me - I am still drooling over BAESs brochures of the CV90 and dreaming of what could be.....

 

[riksavage]

......at least you guys have heavy IFVs to send............

Brett.

P.S don't mind me - I am still drooling over BAESs brochures of the CV90 and dreaming of what could be.....

If the UK decides to go with CV90 fitted with the new Warrior CTA 40mm turret for FRES-Recce - decision due in early 2010, would not the Aussies consider this as a suitable tracked vehicle to support their Abrams? I understand a CTA 40mm turret has also been fitted to Bradley and has, or is undergoing trials as a possible upgrade solution. The combination of CTA and the CV90 chassis would make for a great vehicle with one hell of a kick.

 

[Grim901]

If the UK decides to go with CV90 fitted with the new Warrior CTA 40mm turret for FRES-Recce - decision due in early 2010, would not the Aussies consider this as a suitable tracked vehicle to support their Abrams? I understand a CTA 40mm turret has also been fitted to Bradley and has, or is undergoing trials as a possible upgrade solution. The combination of CTA and the CV90 chassis would make for a great vehicle with one hell of a kick.

Weren't the 2 FRES-Recce options announced recently, I don't remember reading about CV90 then. Is it still in the running?

 

[eckherl]

If the UK decides to go with CV90 fitted with the new Warrior CTA 40mm turret for FRES-Recce - decision due in early 2010, would not the Aussies consider this as a suitable tracked vehicle to support their Abrams? I understand a CTA 40mm turret has also been fitted to Bradley and has, or is undergoing trials as a possible upgrade solution. The combination of CTA and the CV90 chassis would make for a great vehicle with one hell of a kick.

Yes, you are correct in regards to the Bradley.

 

[linux07ster]

Armor too heavy, vehicles too slow for hilly terrain

DELARAM, Afghanistan -- On a sunset patrol in late December, U.S. Marines spotted a Taliban unit trying to steal Afghan police vehicles at a checkpoint.

In a flash, the Marines turned to pursue, driving off the main road and toward the gunfire coming from the mountain a half-mile away.

But their 6-ton vehicles were no match for the Taliban pickups.

The mine-resistant vehicles and heavily-armored Humvees bucked and swerved as drivers tried to maneuver them across fields that the Taliban vehicles raced across.

The Marines, weighted down with 60 pounds of body armor each, struggled to climb up Saradaka Mountain. Once at the top, it was clear to everyone that the Taliban would get away.

Second Lt. Phil Gilreath, 23, of Kingwood, La., called off the mission.
"It would be a ghost chase, and we would run the risk of the vehicles breaking down again," Gilreath said.

The Marines spent the next hour trying to find their way back to the paved road.
Troops learn Iraq tactics are not for Afghanistan - Military Photos

 

[Waylander]

And how is that article supporting the idea of heavy tracked IFVs not being suitable for such terrain?
One is for sure not able to outrun a modern MBT in heavy terrain with a pick up.

Apart from the fact that every vehicle with a decent armament would have been able to blow the Pick-ups to pieces.
Unimportant if it is some kind of Piranha chassis or a heavy tracked AFV.
Any stabilized 20mm+ gun would be sufficient.

But one has to remember that the article reads like the Marines were on a light patrol.
This for sure is not an ideal role for a heavy AFV.
It is more like the article emphasises the need to get reasonably armored vehicles into service which don't suffer from the fact that their chassis is not meant to carry so much add-on armor.

 

[Grim901]

Armor too heavy, vehicles too slow for hilly terrain

DELARAM, Afghanistan -- On a sunset patrol in late December, U.S. Marines spotted a Taliban unit trying to steal Afghan police vehicles at a checkpoint.

In a flash, the Marines turned to pursue, driving off the main road and toward the gunfire coming from the mountain a half-mile away.

But their 6-ton vehicles were no match for the Taliban pickups.

The mine-resistant vehicles and heavily-armored Humvees bucked and swerved as drivers tried to maneuver them across fields that the Taliban vehicles raced across.

The Marines, weighted down with 60 pounds of body armor each, struggled to climb up Saradaka Mountain. Once at the top, it was clear to everyone that the Taliban would get away.

Second Lt. Phil Gilreath, 23, of Kingwood, La., called off the mission.
"It would be a ghost chase, and we would run the risk of the vehicles breaking down again," Gilreath said.

The Marines spent the next hour trying to find their way back to the paved road.
Troops learn Iraq tactics are not for Afghanistan - Military Photos

Up armoured Humvees and MRAP's aren't what we are talking about here. We are talking about proper AFV's.

A tracked unit would easily have dealt with those pick ups. Plenty of wheeled vehicles could have too. Perhaps the British thinking in purchasing Vikings/Broncos and Jackals aren't an entirely stupid idea after all. They'd both have kept up and poured fire onto the enemy.

And Waylander is quite right, heavy armour (MBT's or IFV's) would have covered that terrain more easily than just about any other vehicle.

 

[riksavage]

Weren't the 2 FRES-Recce options announced recently, I don't remember reading about CV90 then. Is it still in the running?

BAE are offering CV90, the other contender is ASCOD. Lessons from Afghanistan have confirmed the need for tracked, not wheeled recce vehicles. My understanding is the Recce and Warrior upgrade is now a priority with 2bn being allocated out of the original 16bn FRES budget (total 3000 vehicles). The credit crunch now means any wheeled FRES utility vehicles other than MRAP's will be confined to the waste paper bin.

 

[Waylander]

I wonder which ASCOD version GD sends to the evaluation.
The Ulan has the better armor and the engine to support the additional weight but we talk about a scout vehicle and so a lighter weight might be preferred (aka the Pizarro layout).

The newest versions of the CV90 Mk.III, while offering a good protection, weight up to 35 tons making them considerably heavier than both ASCOD versions which are in service.

Interesting competition indeed.

To get the thread a little bit back on topic.
The most loved vehicle in the north is the Fennek due to it having the ability to spot and classify enemy units much better than anything else.
Sad to say it also makes it a primary target for the guerillas.

When using a scout like this in a scenario like Afghanistan you face a dilemma. A vehicle like the Fennek is much more vulnerable than a heavy scout vehicle but because of that it also has the ability to join on long range patrols which is a mission that cannot be fullfilled by heavy tracked scouts.