Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
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dragonfire
New Member
Condolences to the Bereaved Family
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Are F-16s used against Terrorist Targets, what kind of ground attack ordinance is being used for this, does PAF have any dedicated Ground attack role fighters
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Is the US supposed to replace PAF fighters lost in combat - How so - esp since it was lost over Pakistani territory
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Are F-16s used against Terrorist Targets, what kind of ground attack ordinance is being used for this, does PAF have any dedicated Ground attack role fighters
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Is the US supposed to replace PAF fighters lost in combat - How so - esp since it was lost over Pakistani territory
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
PAF have AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles in-service for use as a beyond visual range missle on their F-16 fighters, and AIM-9M8/9 Sidewinder missiles as a within visual range missile.
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-34.pdf
I believe PAF have expressed interest in acquiring the French MICA WVR/BVR air to air missiles, most likely for it's Mirage and possibly JF-17 fighters and possibly the Chinese made SD-10 air to air missiles, if that falls through.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Pakistan uses the 20mm M61 cannon, Mk 82/84and BLU-109 "penetrators" air to ground bombs, Enhanced Paveway GBU-12/24 GPS/INS/Laser guided bombs, GBU-31/38 JDAM.
I believe PAF have existing stocks of AGM-65 Maverick air to ground missiles as well.
OPSSG;178 "...While pilot skills and super maneuverability are important they can be easily negated with weapon systems. Were the USAF to supply the PAF the latest F-16s with the latest electronics and missiles the apparent superiority of IAF pilots and Su-30MKI would quickly melt away."[/COLOR said:
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
^^^
As per the Pakistan Air Force ACM, the F-16s from USA are considered bonus. Pakistani FC-20s are sufficient to fulfill all Pakistan Air Force operational requirements.
As per the Pakistan Air Force ACM, the F-16s from USA are considered bonus. Pakistani FC-20s are sufficient to fulfill all Pakistan Air Force operational requirements.
good_old_viper
New Member
That is incorrect.
The AIM-120 will be delivered in 2010 and would be useful after the F-16s undergo the MLU/new F-16s arrive.
Unless there is a secret BVR (which I believe there would be a few), PAF doesnt have BVR and won't have it for a year or so. Initial JF-17s would be primarily ground attack with BVR integration coming later on. Even if they do come right from start, its still some 6 months to go.
mysterious
New Member
That comment is riddled with inaccuracies. What Aussie Digger stated is correct. Pakistan has existing stocks of AIM-120Cs since it has already received two/three MLU-ed aircraft. And as for Jf-17, I'm hearing this for the first time that the first batch of Thunders will be ground-attack version. This sounds absurd since Jf-17 is designed to be 'multi-role'. You should provide a source for such claims.
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
- Deleted -
Last edited:
good_old_viper
New Member
I am afraid your comment has some inaccuracies.
Pakistan has NOT received even a single MLU yet. Did you miss the recent news of the contract signed with TAI of Turkey and MLU will start in Oct. 2010 and go through 2014-15.
The 120C were supposed to be delivered in 2010. Even if PAF got hold of some deliveries, they cannot use them yet as there is no matching radar.
JF-17 is definitely a multi-role fighter. I never said they are "ground attack versions". Let me re-phrase my wording. The first squadron will be induction later this year. At the time of its induction it will only carry limited weapons and gradually the weapons will be integrated. Eventually, all JF-17s will carry BVRs and PGMs, but initially they will only carry dumb bombs. PGMs and BVRs will gradually be integrated because it takes some time and lots of testing. Normally, for any new fighter it takes 4-5 yrs.
Also note that when the JF-17 squadron will be inducted later this year or early next year, they will be replacing the A-5 squadron which were dedicated ground attack versions.
Similar is the case with ECM. It will take time before and EW suite is developed and fully integrated.
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
I dont know what made you claim that but it is simply logical that a combat aircraft is operationalized for air to air combat role first. JF-17 being no exception.
We already have 8. Another 6 will be up and flying soon. A squadron's worth by the end of year 2009.
The first operational squadron of JF-17s is based at Peshawar and is set to fully enter service by the end of the year. The Peshawar-based JF-17s initially are to be tasked with the air-to-air role, with air-to-ground capabilities being retrofitted at a later date.
First Pakistani-Built JF-17 To Fly by Year's End - Defense News
I can also tell you that 198 AIM-120s have been delivered but I have no link to back it up. However, As per the news release of Raytheon company, deliveries of the AIM-120 C5s were to start from 2008 and we are halfway 2009 now. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that Pakistan did recieve AIM-120Cs.
Raytheon Company : Investor Relations : News Release
Furthermore, PAF JF-17s are going to be armed with SD-10A.
good_old_viper
New Member
As I said in my last post, it takes time to integrate the weapons. Thats what made me claim that. Also the JF-17 will be replacing our A-5 squadron which were ground attack so presumably the first weapons to be fitted will be those. For the A2A role, there are WVR missiles.
If the BVR has already been integrated, that would be awesome. But I have my doubts about it. I have read that article by Usman Ansari before but there have been no news either from pakistan or China that BVR has been integrated.
In fact, the ex-chief of PAF had mentioned that weapons integration normally takes 4-5 yrs and we would go on a fast track and finish it in 3 yrs. That statement was made in 2008.
Bhai, I am quite up-to-date with what missiles the JF-17 will be using, thank you.I can also tell you that 198 AIM-120s have been delivered but I have no link to back it up. However, As per the news release of Raytheon company, deliveries of the AIM-120 C5s were to start from 2008 and we are halfway 2009 now. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that Pakistan did recieve AIM-120Cs.
Raytheon Company : Investor Relations : News Release
Furthermore, PAF JF-17s are going to be armed with SD-10A.
My statement is based on this, dated sept 2008. It clearly says that the weapons will be available from June 2010 and even then if we fully fulfill all the US conditions.
http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/wie091608.pdf
It also clearly says the MLU from US will come in 2011. Doesn't matter what Raytheon says when you have US official statement in front of you.
My initial reply was to Aussie Digger. PAF currently has no known BVR missile that it can fire. Even if they have got hold of some 120Cs, there is no fighters to fire them. JF-17 will be inducted by end of year and it remains to be seen if they will have BVR integrated from day one or not.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
What I said was not incorrect. PAF has quantities of Block 15 OCU F-16A/B aircraft, which DO possess upgraded APG-66 radars, which provides them with, amongst other things, the ability to employ AIM-120 AMRAAM or AIM-7 Sparrow BVR missiles.
The entire PAF F-16 fleet may not have this capability, but parts of it do and the remainder will very soon.
As to the missiles themselves, I have read reports over the years indicating a significant quantity have indeed been delivered. If the 198x missiles, as indicated by others is correct, then I suspect quite a bit of the PAF F-16 fleet is able to employ them.
What the "MLU" to be conducted in Turkey will do, is bring the entire F-16 fleet up to a comparable standard to the new build Block 52's on order. However earlier versions (all the way back to Block 15 in fact) F-16's can and do employ "BVR" as you call it.
We already have 8. Another 6 will be up and flying soon. A squadron's worth by the end of year 2009.
First Pakistani-Built JF-17 To Fly by Year's End - Defense News
That good news to hear. Didn't know that PAF already had the JF-17 going. "What deal did Pakistan make to get this going? Glad to see that Pakistan is doing it own productions. If this is true then there making big progress. We have to see what technology this JF-17 have. Also read in that article that the Chinese had already assembled the jet and broke them apart. It's kind of strange went a country do something like that it's something behind that who would do that.
First Pakistani-Built JF-17 To Fly by Year's End - Defense News
That good news to hear. Didn't know that PAF already had the JF-17 going. "What deal did Pakistan make to get this going? Glad to see that Pakistan is doing it own productions. If this is true then there making big progress. We have to see what technology this JF-17 have. Also read in that article that the Chinese had already assembled the jet and broke them apart. It's kind of strange went a country do something like that it's something behind that who would do that.
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
-Double Post-
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
^^^
While PAC had work-share in the earlier examples and tried some limited assembly at its facilities in Kamra, Chengdu Aircraft was responsible for most of the production. The Pakistani company has now entered the full production phase with the aircraft and aims to deliver four to six JF-17s to the PAF before end-2009.
It then plans to produce 12 aircraft in 2010, 15-16 aircraft annually from 2011, and up to 25 a year eventually.
Pakistan begins domestic final assembly of JF-17
*****************************************************************************
It is too risky to fly them straight into Pakistan from China. Pakistan and more importanly JF-17 can not suffer even a single jet's loss. So they were manufactured in China and sent to Pakistan via Russian cargo planes in pieces where they were reassembled.
60% of the airframe and 80% of the avionics will be indigenously produced by 2010, boosting Pakistan's budding manufacturing industry.
Also a point to note is that Pakistan " officially " says it has 8 planes only. If it has 8 and is manufacturing 6 more then how will Pakistan end up with 15 war planes? I'l let you conclude that yourself.:
JF-17s will be the most capable aircraft in PAF untill the MLUed F-16s start arriving.
While PAC had work-share in the earlier examples and tried some limited assembly at its facilities in Kamra, Chengdu Aircraft was responsible for most of the production. The Pakistani company has now entered the full production phase with the aircraft and aims to deliver four to six JF-17s to the PAF before end-2009.
It then plans to produce 12 aircraft in 2010, 15-16 aircraft annually from 2011, and up to 25 a year eventually.
Pakistan begins domestic final assembly of JF-17
*****************************************************************************
It is too risky to fly them straight into Pakistan from China. Pakistan and more importanly JF-17 can not suffer even a single jet's loss. So they were manufactured in China and sent to Pakistan via Russian cargo planes in pieces where they were reassembled.
60% of the airframe and 80% of the avionics will be indigenously produced by 2010, boosting Pakistan's budding manufacturing industry.
Also a point to note is that Pakistan " officially " says it has 8 planes only. If it has 8 and is manufacturing 6 more then how will Pakistan end up with 15 war planes? I'l let you conclude that yourself.
:JF-17s will be the most capable aircraft in PAF untill the MLUed F-16s start arriving.
good_old_viper
New Member
Ah, I was unaware of that----Good news if that is true
I was of the opinion that the wings had been strengthened to add extra hard-points so it was capable of carrying the AIM-120 but I didn't know that the radar had also been upgraded for this capability.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The Block 15 OCU included the ability to fire AMRAAM on production F-16's for the first time, so PAF definitely has inherent AMRAAM capability.Ah, I was unaware of that----Good news if that is true
I was of the opinion that the wings had been strengthened to add extra hard-points so it was capable of carrying the AIM-120 but I didn't know that the radar had also been upgraded for this capability.
As to the hardpoints, AMRAAM is only a 335lbs missile. Any hardpoint that can carry a 500lbs bomb, can handle the weight of an AMRAAM, but it may have been done to add extra hardpoints, I'm not sure, I've never read anything about that. What may have had to been done, is to install the appropriate wiring and testing conducted for new rail launchers, (such as the LAU-127/128/129) to allow for AMRAAM/Sidewinder carriage on the inboard pylons, if such rails were not previously certified or in-service.
The question of whether or not PAF has actually received AMRAAM is a matter of debate. Personally I suspect they have at least received some elements of the capability, to enable PAF to start developing a capability with AMRAAM, which is a significantly different matter to simply receiving missiles.
Before such a capability can be employed, as previously mentioned, the aircraft need to be wired and fitted with the appropriate software load and launch rails to employ AMRAAM.
New rail launchers and the missiles (captive carry variants usually, ie: models that replicate the airframe shape and weight of the operational missile, but contain no explosives, sensors, rockets etc) themselves need to be flight tested and certified on the airframes.
Pilots need time to become used to a new missile and it's additional capabilities, they need to develop and practise tactics for employment of the new capabilities and develop new flight profiles (for that force) to maximise the potential of the new weapon.
They will need time to become used to using tactical data-links and differing radar techniques (ie: an active radar guided missile doesn't require a target to be "painted" by the fighter FCR constantly) and capabilities such as "off board targetting", demonstrated recently by the Eurofighter Typhoon/AMRAAM combination is a capability PAF will need to practice and gain mastery of, to fully exploit the capabilities AMRAAM will bring to the table.
So, even if live missiles haven't yet been delivered, which doesn't agree with other reports I've read, there can be little doubt that PAF would be conducting a significant amount of work, to ready themselves for delivery of such a capability, if they aren't there already.
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
Thursday, July 2, 2009
Chuck Yeager on Pakistan Air Force
Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force
An Excerpt from Yeager,
the Autobiography of General (Retd.) Chuck E. Yeager (USAF)
When we arrived in Pakistan in 1971, the political situation between the Pakistanis and Indians was really tense over Bangladesh, or East Pakistan, as it was known in those days, and Russia was backing India with tremendous amounts of new airplanes and tanks. The U.S. and China were backing the Pakistanis. My job was military advisor to the Pakistani airforce, headed by Air Marshal Rahim Khan, who had been trained in Britain by the Royal Air Force, and was the first Pakistani pilot to exceed the speed of sound. He took me around to their different fighter groups and I met their pilots, who knew me and were really pleased that I was there.
They had about five hundred airplanes, more than half of them Sabres and 104 Starfighters, a few B-57 bombers, and about a hundred Chinese MiG-19s. They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. One of my first jobs there was to help them put U.S. Sidewinders on their Chinese MiGs, which were 1.6 Mach twin-engine airplanes that carried three thirty-millimeter canons. Our government furnished them with the rails for Sidewinders. They bought the missiles and all the checkout equipment that went with them, and it was one helluva interesting experience watching their electricians wiring up American missiles on a Chinese MiG. I worked with their squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics. The Chinese MiG was one hundred percent Chinese-built and was made for only one hundred hours of flying before it had to be scrapped - a disposable fighter good for one hundred strikes. In fairness, it was an older airplane in their inventory, and I guess they were just getting rid of them. They delivered spare parts, but it was a tough airplane to work on; the Pakistanis kept it flying for about 130 hours.
War broke out only a couple of months after we had arrived, in late November 1971, when India attacked East Pakistan. The battle lasted only three days before East Pakistan fell. India's intention was to annex East Pakistan and claim it for themselves. But the Pakistanis counter-attacked. Air Marshal Rahim Khan laid a strike on the four closest Indian air fields in the western part of India, and wiped out a lot of equipment. At that point, Indira Gandhi began moving her forces toward West Pakistan. China moved in a lot of equipment, while Russia backed the Indians all the way. So, it really became a kind of surrogate war - the Pakistanis, with U.S. training and equipment, versus the Indians, mostly Russian-trained, flying Soviet airplanes.
The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] asses in the sky.The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division. I didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would've been too touchy, but I did fly around and pick up shot-down Indian pilots and take them back to prisoner-of-war camps for questioning. I interviewed them about the equipment they had been flying and the tactics their Soviet advisers taught them to use. I wore a uniform or flying suit all the time, and it was amusing when those Indians saw my name tag and asked, "Are you the Yeager who broke the sound barrier?" They couldn't believe I was in Pakistan or understand what I was doing there. I told them, "I'm the American Defense Rep here. That's what I'm doing."
India flew numerous raids against the Pakistani air fields with brand new SU-7 bombers being escorted in with MiG 21s. On one of those raids, they clobbered my small Beech Queen Air that had U.S. Army markings and a big American flag painted on the tail. I had it parked at the Islamabad airport, and I remember sitting on my front porch on the second day of the war, thinking that maybe I ought to move that airplane down to the Iranian border, out of range of the Indian bombers, when the damned air-raid siren went off, and a couple of Indian jets came streaking in overhead. A moment later, I saw a column of black smoke rising from the air field. My Beech Queen was totaled. It was the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.
I stayed on in Pakistan for almost a year after the war ended, and it was one of the most enjoyable times of my life. From 1972 until we came home in March 1973, I spent most of my time flying in an F-86 Sabre with the Pakistani fighter outfits. I dearly loved the Sabre, almost as much as I enjoyed the P-51 Mustang from World War II days. It was a terrific airplane to fly and I took one to see K-2, the great mountain of Pakistan and the second highest mountain in the world, about an hour's flight away [from Islamabad] at over 28,000 feet. It's a fabulous peak, as awesome and beautiful as any on earth, located in the middle of a high range that runs the length of the Chinese-Pakistani border. We actually crossed over into China to get there, and I've got some pictures of me in my cockpit right smack up against the summit. I made two or three trips up to K-2 - real highlights. I also did some bighorn sheep hunting in the Himalayan foothills. Susie owned a little Arabian mare. She took her horse when I went hunting and actually learned some of the Urdu language of the mountain people.
Copyright © 1985 by Yeager Inc
Posted by Agha H Amin at 8:04 AM
Labels: Chuck Yeager
Military History: Chuck Yeager on Pakistan Air Force
The first USAF pilot to break the sound barrier desctibing a few of his experiences first hand.
The article required little bit editing. Couple of paragraphs were broken up. Next time please realign paragraphs if you come across such formatting. Also to inform these are Chuck Yeager's words so no flaming.
Chuck Yeager on Pakistan Air Force
Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force
An Excerpt from Yeager,
the Autobiography of General (Retd.) Chuck E. Yeager (USAF)
When we arrived in Pakistan in 1971, the political situation between the Pakistanis and Indians was really tense over Bangladesh, or East Pakistan, as it was known in those days, and Russia was backing India with tremendous amounts of new airplanes and tanks. The U.S. and China were backing the Pakistanis. My job was military advisor to the Pakistani airforce, headed by Air Marshal Rahim Khan, who had been trained in Britain by the Royal Air Force, and was the first Pakistani pilot to exceed the speed of sound. He took me around to their different fighter groups and I met their pilots, who knew me and were really pleased that I was there.
They had about five hundred airplanes, more than half of them Sabres and 104 Starfighters, a few B-57 bombers, and about a hundred Chinese MiG-19s. They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. One of my first jobs there was to help them put U.S. Sidewinders on their Chinese MiGs, which were 1.6 Mach twin-engine airplanes that carried three thirty-millimeter canons. Our government furnished them with the rails for Sidewinders. They bought the missiles and all the checkout equipment that went with them, and it was one helluva interesting experience watching their electricians wiring up American missiles on a Chinese MiG. I worked with their squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics. The Chinese MiG was one hundred percent Chinese-built and was made for only one hundred hours of flying before it had to be scrapped - a disposable fighter good for one hundred strikes. In fairness, it was an older airplane in their inventory, and I guess they were just getting rid of them. They delivered spare parts, but it was a tough airplane to work on; the Pakistanis kept it flying for about 130 hours.
War broke out only a couple of months after we had arrived, in late November 1971, when India attacked East Pakistan. The battle lasted only three days before East Pakistan fell. India's intention was to annex East Pakistan and claim it for themselves. But the Pakistanis counter-attacked. Air Marshal Rahim Khan laid a strike on the four closest Indian air fields in the western part of India, and wiped out a lot of equipment. At that point, Indira Gandhi began moving her forces toward West Pakistan. China moved in a lot of equipment, while Russia backed the Indians all the way. So, it really became a kind of surrogate war - the Pakistanis, with U.S. training and equipment, versus the Indians, mostly Russian-trained, flying Soviet airplanes.
The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] asses in the sky.The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division. I didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would've been too touchy, but I did fly around and pick up shot-down Indian pilots and take them back to prisoner-of-war camps for questioning. I interviewed them about the equipment they had been flying and the tactics their Soviet advisers taught them to use. I wore a uniform or flying suit all the time, and it was amusing when those Indians saw my name tag and asked, "Are you the Yeager who broke the sound barrier?" They couldn't believe I was in Pakistan or understand what I was doing there. I told them, "I'm the American Defense Rep here. That's what I'm doing."
India flew numerous raids against the Pakistani air fields with brand new SU-7 bombers being escorted in with MiG 21s. On one of those raids, they clobbered my small Beech Queen Air that had U.S. Army markings and a big American flag painted on the tail. I had it parked at the Islamabad airport, and I remember sitting on my front porch on the second day of the war, thinking that maybe I ought to move that airplane down to the Iranian border, out of range of the Indian bombers, when the damned air-raid siren went off, and a couple of Indian jets came streaking in overhead. A moment later, I saw a column of black smoke rising from the air field. My Beech Queen was totaled. It was the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.
I stayed on in Pakistan for almost a year after the war ended, and it was one of the most enjoyable times of my life. From 1972 until we came home in March 1973, I spent most of my time flying in an F-86 Sabre with the Pakistani fighter outfits. I dearly loved the Sabre, almost as much as I enjoyed the P-51 Mustang from World War II days. It was a terrific airplane to fly and I took one to see K-2, the great mountain of Pakistan and the second highest mountain in the world, about an hour's flight away [from Islamabad] at over 28,000 feet. It's a fabulous peak, as awesome and beautiful as any on earth, located in the middle of a high range that runs the length of the Chinese-Pakistani border. We actually crossed over into China to get there, and I've got some pictures of me in my cockpit right smack up against the summit. I made two or three trips up to K-2 - real highlights. I also did some bighorn sheep hunting in the Himalayan foothills. Susie owned a little Arabian mare. She took her horse when I went hunting and actually learned some of the Urdu language of the mountain people.
Copyright © 1985 by Yeager Inc
Posted by Agha H Amin at 8:04 AM
Labels: Chuck Yeager
Military History: Chuck Yeager on Pakistan Air Force
The first USAF pilot to break the sound barrier desctibing a few of his experiences first hand.
The article required little bit editing. Couple of paragraphs were broken up. Next time please realign paragraphs if you come across such formatting. Also to inform these are Chuck Yeager's words so no flaming.
Last edited by a moderator: