The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Air launched Tomohawks are carried by the B52.

As to Watchkeeper I'll pass on the indigenous network and the technology thanks and just have the American UAV's which are available now, work and will (I'll be prepared to bet) be cheaper due to those massive production runs that you mention.

Some of Lewis views are extreme. I never argued for us having no defence industry, just for doing the things we do well and doing less of the things we are hopless at.

For example, Hawk trainers have been a tremendous export success with customers all over the world. That seems to me like something we should continue to do. Trying to build our own AWACS, UAV's, adapting an aircraft designed for low level ground attack into air defence, re-engining perfectly good helicopters (Apache), building medium lift helicopters that are more expensive than proven heavy lift helicopters etc. seem like things we should not do. The money we'd have saved would have enabled us to give the Type 45 the endless list of for but not with capabilities that would have meant it beat the AB hands down and even built enough of them to provide the hulls needed.

Lewis and others wouldn't be making the comparisons discussed regarding the T45 if we hadn't ended up with 6 ships rather than 12 (or 8), if they hadn't cost considerably more than budgeted, if they weren't years late into service compared to other nations next generation AAW vessels, if they actually carried the SAM's they need for their primary mission, if they weren't going to spend the early years of their life without the Co-operative Engagement Capability, if they had a land attack capability, an embarked anti-ship and anti-submarine capability and a TBMD capability. The National Audit Office as well as Lewis Page seem to think those issues represent one almighty mess at the end of over £6 billion of taxpayers money.
everything bar the nimrods AEW were a success. They did what was required of them. I think your judgment on those programs are unduly harsh especially program failures is not an exclusively British thing .
If you have a defense industry cost overruns and failure is part of having one otherwise you go MICOTS or COTS and except that you can have parts restricted at the will of the seller
 

kev 99

Member
Air launched Tomohawks are carried by the B52.
I believe you're talking about these: AGM-129 ACM

Lewis and others wouldn't be making the comparisons discussed regarding the T45 if we hadn't ended up with 6 ships rather than 12 (or 8), if they hadn't cost considerably more than budgeted, if they weren't years late into service compared to other nations next generation AAW vessels, if they actually carried the SAM's they need for their primary mission, if they weren't going to spend the early years of their life without the Co-operative Engagement Capability, if they had a land attack capability, an embarked anti-ship and anti-submarine capability and a TBMD capability. The National Audit Office as well as Lewis Page seem to think those issues represent one almighty mess at the end of over £6 billion of taxpayers money.
As for the T45 programme we've already done this one to death, it's not the first contract in this country that has gone way over costs nor will it be the last, the US suffers from contractors low balling contracts too. The only reason they won't have missiles for a while was because the MOD budget is blown and they decided to defer funding for testing, numbers were cut for much the same reason, blame the Government for lack of funding and expecting the MOD to do to much with what it has, this is the real cause of the most of the MODs woes.

Who is to say if we'd of licence built Arleigh Burke's the contract would of gone any smoother?

Lewis Page is not just criticising T45 because of cost grounds he has repeatedly stated that escorts are rubbish and he doesn't see the need for the RN to have ANY, he particularly states that AAW destroyers are a waste of time and points to the case of the USS Vincennes and Iran Flight 655 as a reason.

And whatever Page's reasons there really is no excuse for making the bloody stupid cost comparisons that are so utterly pointless and spurious it beggars belief that he's trying to pass it off as serious journalism.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
The factor in the Arleigh Burke's favour is the MK41 launcher, it's what the RN wanted so that they could fit TLAM but PAAMs project team choose Sylver instead.
TLAM can be fired from Sylver A70. Just needs integration. Same for other weapons. Sylver isn't inherently less flexible, just hasn't had as many weapons integrated - yet.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
As to Watchkeeper I'll pass on the indigenous network and the technology thanks and just have the American UAV's which are available now, work and will (I'll be prepared to bet) be cheaper due to those massive production runs that you mention.
Without the indigenous network (which, BTW, can be used for any other UAVs we buy, so shouldn't be regarded as part of the cost of the UAVs) we'd be dependent on piggy-backing on the USA. Personally, I'd like to live in an independent country, not one which can't even operate its artillery observation UAVs without US permission.
 

citizen578

New Member
No CIWS either. But due to RN requirements the Type 45 had to be a new ship and when you are developing from scratch and fitting new systems then the cost will be higher than if you chose an existing and proven design.
I was under the impression that phalanx would be transferred from the decommissioning 42's to the commissioning 45's, rather than buying a new load then ending up with spares (not that having spare CIWSs is a bad thing!)

Anyone else know any details?

Swerve said:
The problem is that we need air transport. If we don't buy A400M, we have to buy something else, which is unlikely to be better unless it costs even more, & is likely to be a lot worse if it's any cheaper. Consider what else is on the market, & how much it costs to both buy and operate.
Yeah, that was pretty much my point.


Is there any prospect of integrating a LAM with the T45, under it's present configuration? I know a navalised Storm Shadow/SCALP-N is pretty well precluded due to dimensions of the cells. Would it be possible to make relatively low-cost alterations to the VLS. Say, remove one of the 6 a-50 cells and install a tube with greater volume? That still leaves 5 other cells for PAAMs (40 sea vipers!).
Or perhaps it's just not worth the effort...
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
...
Is there any prospect of integrating a LAM with the T45, under it's present configuration? I know a navalised Storm Shadow/SCALP-N is pretty well precluded due to dimensions of the cells. Would it be possible to make relatively low-cost alterations to the VLS. Say, remove one of the 8 a-50 cells and install a tube with greater volume? That still leaves 5 other cells for PAAMs (40 sea vipers!)....
The Scalp-N is too long for the Sylver A50, but fits in the A70. It was one of the design criteria. The A70 is taller than the A50 fitted to the T45, but otherwise has the same dimensions. T45 is supposed to have room for two or three more Sylver blocks, i.e. 16 or 24 more cells, & to be capable of taking A70. I think someone said a gym would have to be sacrificed to make room.

i.e. it could be done, but would cost money. Something to be held over until a refit is needed, I think.
 

spsun100001

New Member
Without the indigenous network (which, BTW, can be used for any other UAVs we buy, so shouldn't be regarded as part of the cost of the UAVs) we'd be dependent on piggy-backing on the USA. Personally, I'd like to live in an independent country, not one which can't even operate its artillery observation UAVs without US permission.
Seems to be working just fine with the Predators we are currently operating in Afghanistan which are controlled from the US.

We are reported to be buying 54 Watchkeepers at a price of £800m (no doubt including the network capability to which you refer).

The price per unit for the Predator is quoted as £2.25 million each meaning that 54 of them would cost us about £123 million. That leaves change of £677 million.

For that we could buy a further dozen Chinooks, equip the Type 45 with Co-operative Engagement Capability now along with a land attack cruise missile and SSM's and invest the rest in enhanced personal protective equipment and vehicles for troops deployed to Afghanistan.

Sure, I'd rather we had our own UAV network but on balance I'd prefer all those other things first thanks.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Seems to be working just fine with the Predators we are currently operating in Afghanistan which are controlled from the US.....
It works fine as long as our armed forces are doing exactly what the USA wants us to do. What part of "independent" are you having difficulty with?

I have a suggestion: we give up our armed forces. Instead, we hand over all our weapons to the USA, give all our military spending to the USA to spend as it sees fit, & open recruiting offices for the US army, air force, navy & marines in the UK. In return, we ask the USA to lend us troops, ships, etc. when we need them. Good idea? Or not?

The price per unit for the Predator is quoted as £2.25 million each meaning that 54 of them would cost us about £123 million. That leaves change of £677 million.
Sorry, it doesn't work like that. I don't know how much it would actually cost to put 54 Predators into RAF service, but it would be a multiple of £123 mn.

Look up the price for 10 Reapers (I know, a more expensive vehicle, but bear with me) - "The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.071 billion." - http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/UK_08-27.pdf

The MoD put the replacement cost of the Reaper lost in Afghanistan last year at about £10 million, for the aircraft alone: the rest of that $100 mn per Reaper was for all the ancillary costs associated with buying them, i.e. the costs included in the Watchkeeper contract, & which you ignore when comparing prices. I think that would have enabled us, if we'd gone ahead, to operate them without putting our blokes in Nevada, but it's just another way of paying. If we want to piggy-back on US systems, we still have to pay, either by renting (as now), or buying, as in the aborted 10 Reaper proposal.

BTW, we've already paid for most of Watchkeeper. You should be comparing the price of Predators and all ancillary costs with the remaining cost of completing the Watchkeeper programme. Want to bet which is cheaper? And which is cheaper to plug our own UAVs into in the future?

BTW, the unit production cost of the WK450 UAV was given by the NAO as £943000 on 18-Dec-2008. 54 of them costs us £51 million.

http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0809/mod_major_projects_report_2008.aspx
It's in the "project summary sheets", p177.
 
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spsun100001

New Member
It works fine as long as our armed forces are doing exactly what the USA wants us to do. What part of "independent" are you having difficulty with?

I have a suggestion: we give up our armed forces. Instead, we hand over all our weapons to the USA, give all our military spending to the USA to spend as it sees fit, & open recruiting offices for the US army, air force, navy & marines in the UK. In return, we ask the USA to lend us troops, ships, etc. when we need them. Good idea? Or not?

I''ll answer the rest of your detailed points about Predator later after less beer. This bit I can do now.

I never suggested we gave up our armed forces, merely that we focussed on the things we are good at. I'm sure you saw that in my post (such as the Hawk example) before you trivialised it and exaggerated it to fit your point.

Maybe you're right though and we should only preserve independent operation (I've read a dictionary and finally understand what it means). Damn those Americans for lending us the helicopters needed for Operation Panther Claw. We should have walked into the combat zone before we had to give up our independence and rely upon the US of A.

Walking into a combat zone because we haven't got enough helicopters but would prefer to be independent before we rely on the Americans.

Good idea or not?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I''ll answer the rest of your detailed points about Predator later after less beer. This bit I can do now.

I never suggested we gave up our armed forces, merely that we focussed on the things we are good at. I'm sure you saw that in my post (such as the Hawk example) before you trivialised it and exaggerated it to fit your point.

Maybe you're right though and we should only preserve independent operation (I've read a dictionary and finally understand what it means). Damn those Americans for lending us the helicopters needed for Operation Panther Claw. We should have walked into the combat zone before we had to give up our independence and rely upon the US of A.

Walking into a combat zone because we haven't got enough helicopters but would prefer to be independent before we rely on the Americans.

Good idea or not?
I don't think I'd trivialised it, but you certainly have. I believe that you were proposing that we choose to be totally & perhaps permanently dependent on the USA for a major enabling capability (& one which we've already contracted to buy, & paid most of the price for!), for the foreseeable future, in all our operations, everywhere in the world, regardless of whether the USA is involved in them, in order to save a relatively small amount of money upfront, & probably at higher cost (paid to the USA) in the long term. I chose to illustrate what I thought of that proposal by extending it to its logical (& absurd) conclusion, to demonstrate what I see as its foolishness.

What you have responded with is a proposal that in a specific joint action with an ally we should deliberately handicap ourselves, & endanger the success of the operation, in order to avoid sharing assets owned by that ally. That is trivialising the discussion. There is no connection between it & what I said.
 

spsun100001

New Member
It works fine as long as our armed forces are doing exactly what the USA wants us to do. What part of "independent" are you having difficulty with?

I have a suggestion: we give up our armed forces. Instead, we hand over all our weapons to the USA, give all our military spending to the USA to spend as it sees fit, & open recruiting offices for the US army, air force, navy & marines in the UK. In return, we ask the USA to lend us troops, ships, etc. when we need them. Good idea? Or not?
Well, the first paragraph kinda reads like sarcasm and the second kinda reads like trivialising my point.

I'm making the point that we already have capability gaps. That's why we borrowed helicopters from the Americans which kinda means we aren't able to conduct this campaign independently of them. You obviously think there are times when you can't be independent as well, as in the example we're discussing, so it's good that we both agree on that point.

In the grown up debate that this started as the point was that we should focus on the things we are good at and buy more of the things we are not good at doing from off the shelf.

Given that right now our UAV need is in Afghanistan and that it is being served adequately by UAV's bought off the shelf from the US then yes, I would have not started down the line with an £800 million UAV programme and would have invested in more helicopters and equipment for the front line troops fighting todays war.

You'd make a different choice for the reasons you've stated. I'll respect your right to that point of view without suggesting you don't understand the meaning of words or making ridiculous characterisations of your position.

The same respect in return from someone who is a moderator would be good to see.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Perhaps my language was a little intemperate, but this is something I feel very strongly about.

Yes, we have capability gaps, but they are generally of degree, rather than kind. What we do not have is entire swathes of capability which can only be used (as distinct from maintained over the long term) with the active co-operation of another state. I am deeply reluctant to see us placed in that position, particularly in a case where whatever short-term financial argument there may once have been has been rendered obsolete by the passage of time, & progress in developing & building the capability ourselves.

I think you fail to appreciate the significance of what you suggested. Buying Predators, without the network to support their independent operation (& that is what your monetary numbers amounted to) would have left us unable to fly the things out of LOS of an airfield without US permission. To me, that is not acceptable. If my taxes are being spent on a weapon for my countrymen to use, I want its use to be determined by my elected representatives, not someone in another country, accountable to people who have their own concerns in which the UK does not figure highly.

I see that as fundamentally different from a decision not to buy something because we can't afford it, or because it is not deemed necessary for what we wish to do or think is within our reach. We don't buy B-2s: fine, we can't have everything. But what we do have, we must control.

I hate the notion that as loyal auxiliaries of the USA we should not worry about the capability for independent action*, because Uncle Sam will provide. It's slavish. If our military policy consists solely of following wherever the USA leads, then what purpose do our armed forces serve? We may as well just hand over our money & manpower to the USA.

No, we must have the ability to act independently, for the day when we want to do something & the USA says "nothing to do with us, pal". If that means we have slightly smaller forces, or have to pay a little more for them, so be it.

In the helicopter example, the operation is already joint, & operational independence is therefore not relevant. We share what we have with everyone taking part, to maximise the effectiveness of all forces involved, for mutual benefit.

What I was referring to was the possibility of purely British actions, where we might inform the US (as a courtesy) what we are doing, if we thought it appropriate (it would not always be), but otherwise proceed on our own. For example, if military action became necessary in Northern Ireland. Would you be happy with us needing US cooperation to operate our own UAVs over our own territory? I wouldn't - and I can easily imagine that it might not be available, depending on US internal politics. I believe you have not considered that scenario.

*I know that's not what you said, but I feel it was implied, even if unintentionally.

BTW, I recuse myself from moderating any discussion in which I am participating.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
1st things 1st...

I don't want to belittle anyones discussion points, cause arguments or generally hack ANYONE off, but is this not a discussion about the ROYAL NAVY ?

:argue



It's not about the politics of UAV's, their costs, where, when & how they're operated, or whether it's better to buy from the US, or develop indigenous equipment (As I'm sure that'll have been covered on the AIR FORCE page....), so can we get back 'On Topic' ??

:eek:fftopic

I was under the impression that phalanx would be transferred from the decommissioning 42's to the commissioning 45's, rather than buying a new load then ending up with spares (not that having spare CIWSs is a bad thing!)

Anyone else know any details?...

See page 114, post #1707 to save me reposting my comments... :D


Is there any prospect of integrating a LAM with the T45, under it's present configuration? I know a navalised Storm Shadow/SCALP-N is pretty well precluded due to dimensions of the cells. Would it be possible to make relatively low-cost alterations to the VLS. Say, remove one of the 6 a-50 cells and install a tube with greater volume? That still leaves 5 other cells for PAAMS (40 sea vipers!).
Or perhaps it's just not worth the effort...

The Scalp-N is too long for the Sylver A50, but fits in the A70. It was one of the design criteria. The A70 is taller than the A50 fitted to the T45, but otherwise has the same dimensions. T45 is supposed to have room for two or three more Sylver blocks, i.e. 16 or 24 more cells, & to be capable of taking A70. I think someone said a gym would have to be sacrificed to make room.

i.e. it could be done, but would cost money. Something to be held over until a refit is needed, I think.
The Sylver launchers are designed & built as a unit, of 'X' number of cells, all the same size & shape, to accommodate a particular 'size' of missiles. Just modifying 1 cell would be a waste of time & it's more likely that the whole unit of cells would be removed & replaced.

(See a picture of an example of the Sylver launchers HERE...)
Frigates armed with the MBDA Aster 15 missile system

...& here's a comparison of missiles.
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/vls.jpg


As Swerve stated there's space on T45, for another set of launchers (Possibly penciled in to be either for TLAM, for additional Sea Vipers, or used as a magazine for the 155mm Gun). As he also stated, I'd agree that the ship would loose it's gym, as that's wot the 'space' was / is being used as. This space is below decks & is the area between the current silo & the gun (see attached picture).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2550710869_5f657f3591.jpg



SA
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
1st things 1st...
I don't want to belittle anyones discussion points, cause arguments or generally hack ANYONE off, but is this not a discussion about the ROYAL NAVY ?
SA
Yeah, you're right. Partly my fault it veered so far off topic. Sorry - & I'll keep to the straight & narrow from here.

The Sylver launchers are designed & built as a unit, of 'X' number of cells, all the same size & shape, to accommodate a particular 'size' of missiles. Just modifying 1 cell would be a waste of time & it's more likely that the whole unit of cells would be removed & replaced.
8-cell blocks, aren't they? A43, A50 & A70 blocks of 8 are all the same size except for the height, according to the numbers I've found, & they certainly look like that, in the DCNS photo showing all the Sylver variants next to each other. Now, if you were to replace & remove current A50 blocks on a T45, it would probably be pointless to do a single block, but it might - depending on how the deck below is arranged - be practical to replace a couple of blocks (paired, same ones from each row) with A70, or if adding additional cells, add A70 blocks while keeping the existing A50s (perhaps rearranged). But always in 8-cell blocks.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
8-cell blocks, aren't they? A43, A50 & A70 blocks of 8 are all the same size except for the height, according to the numbers I've found, & they certainly look like that, in the DCNS photo showing all the Sylver variants next to each other. Now, if you were to replace & remove current A50 blocks on a T45, it would probably be pointless to do a single block, but it might - depending on how the deck below is arranged - be practical to replace a couple of blocks (paired, same ones from each row) with A70, or if adding additional cells, add A70 blocks while keeping the existing A50s (perhaps rearranged). But always in 8-cell blocks.
Right as always !

An 8 cell block, as shown in the DCNS pic in my previous post. I have a feeling that T45 has equipment rooms or hotel services / plant below the silo, so the ONLY place it would go is into the Future Fit Slot, between the gun & silo (see image in link)

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/t45-accomodation.gif

(FWD of the Blue / Yellow Sections)

SA
 
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