Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[PeterM]

With only 12 unit sales on offer, it's not exactly a big contract. It wouldn't be hard for a complicated bid process to eat in to any potential profit, especially if customisation was required.

Given they arren't even guaranteed to win, it's not too shocking a company just might not want to risk the time and money...

Exactly

KMW are offering new build Dutch machines, presumably the DMO would be asking for considerable customisation to suit ADF needs. If there are intellectual property issues regarding this customisation, that can have considerable long term financial impact.

It wasn't that long ago that the ADF turned down discounted surplus Dutch units.

 

[knightrider4]

Land 17

Exactly

KMW are offering new build Dutch machines, presumably the DMO would be asking for considerable customisation to suit ADF needs. If there are intellectual property issues regarding this customisation, that can have considerable long term financial impact.

It wasn't that long ago that the ADF turned down discounted surplus Dutch units.

Incredible, how something so simple could become such a protracted affair. I doubt that other countries operating the PZH 2000 had such an arduous acquisition drama. If you ask me this is the death knell of this particular project. It does simply not take this long to procure equipment that is in service with many countries.

 

[gf0012-aust]

KMW are offering new build Dutch machines, presumably the DMO would be asking for considerable customisation to suit ADF needs.

DMO have got nothing to do with issues of asking for any customisation to any system.

Thats the problem with reading newspapers, they have no bloody idea about how and why this happens.

The stakeholder (in this case, Arty) goes to CDG with a request to field "x" equipment. they put in their own proposals what they want and CDG give the OK (after all, they are "paying for it" and they are the sponsor.

CDG then get DMO to act as the project managers for that capability.

Any delays have to go through multiple layers - so the notion that DMO are responsible for an outcome is absolute tosh.

At any stage, there are a number of participants who have veto rights and kill off or slow down a project through their recommendations.

 

[Navor86]

Yesterday I read that the Army wants to have 2800 High Readiness Reservists trained to same standards as their regular counterparts by 2012.

Will those Reservists be put into formed Units that can be deployed as a whole or will they be individually assigned to regular units?

In case they that they want to stand up formde Units. Of which size will those units be and how many per Branch will be put online?

 

[StevoJH]

Yesterday I read that the Army wants to have 2800 High Readiness Reservists trained to same standards as their regular counterparts by 2012.

Will those Reservists be put into formed Units that can be deployed as a whole or will they be individually assigned to regular units?

In case they that they want to stand up formde Units. Of which size will those units be and how many per Branch will be put online?

The reserves are already deploying Company/Squadron sized forces overseas as formed units. The Hunter Valley Lancers had a Bushmaster Mounted squadron in Iraq not long ago, i believe there is a reserve Infantry company deployed in Timor as well.

 

[IPA35]

About the Australian army's reserve brigades:

How long does a reserve soldier serve?
And I mean how many days a year (compared to a fully proffesional soldier).

And I see the 8th brigade is the only one with an armoured battalion, I understand they have Bushmasters but those are used in a IFV role?

And one unit with 59 tanks seems quite alot, especcialy compared to 2 units with 56 tanks total on my own country...

 

[eckherl]

DMO have got nothing to do with issues of asking for any customisation to any system.

Thats the problem with reading newspapers, they have no bloody idea about how and why this happens.

The stakeholder (in this case, Arty) goes to CDG with a request to field "x" equipment. they put in their own proposals what they want and CDG give the OK (after all, they are "paying for it" and they are the sponsor.

CDG then get DMO to act as the project managers for that capability.

Any delays have to go through multiple layers - so the notion that DMO are responsible for an outcome is absolute tosh.

At any stage, there are a number of participants who have veto rights and kill off or slow down a project through their recommendations.

Does this recent contractor pull out give the ROK K9 Thunder a little closer to a deal with Australia.

 

[PeterM]

Does this recent contractor pull out give the ROK K9 Thunder a little closer to a deal with Australia.

That would be the case presuming the DMO continues with the original procurement plan.

I guess we will see.

 

[rossfrb_1]

Does this recent contractor pull out give the ROK K9 Thunder a little closer to a deal with Australia.

according to ADM: German tender for Land 17 still a goer
"
German tender for Land 17 still a goer

02 Jul 2009

We understand that Krauss-Maffei Wegman, bidding the PzH 2000 for Land 17's self-propelled howitzer requirement, is concerned that their contretemps with the DMO over the Offer Definition Refinement Process (ODRP) may indicate to some that their bid is being withdrawn. We understand that this is not the case and that they simply disagree with the terms and conditions of the ODRP, which have not been clearly defined.
We are also led to understand that there is some preference for the PzH 2000 by the Army and that there would be considerable misgivings if the competition between the PzH 2000 and the Raytheon/Samsung Techwin AS-9 fell over due to DMO intransigence.
An earlier offer by the Netherlands Government for Australia to take over the PzH 2000s they had contracted for with KMW, but were now surplus to Dutch requirements, was knocked back on the ground that there was insufficient information available to determine their through life support costs.
This has changed since BAE Systems Australia has teamed with KMW to support their SPHs at a dedicated facility at Bandiana should they win the Land 17 SPH contract.
Surely BAES has provided full support costs to the DMO.
Dutch forces are providing indirect fire support to ADF and others in Oruzgan Province with the three PzH 2000s they have in theatre.
What will happen when the Dutch pull out over the next two to three years?"


the PzH 2000 is still on offer.

i think those involved are keeping their cards close to their chest...
i'd be interested to know how someone like Abe reads the situation
rb

 

[IPA35]

I really don't hope we will sell our current phz's to australia, sorry.
We have 24 remaining and 12 retired this year.
So maybe we have like 20 in storage, but I rather see them put back in service.
The Germans do have a large number of stored phz's.
But our guns in afghanistan face alot of dust problem AFAIK, so maybe that's not very usefull in the Australian climate.

 

[the road runner]

I really don't hope we will sell our current phz's to australia, sorry.
We have 24 remaining and 12 retired this year.
So maybe we have like 20 in storage, but I rather see them put back in service.
The Germans do have a large number of stored phz's.
But our guns in afghanistan face alot of dust problem AFAIK, so maybe that's not very usefull in the Australian climate.

SOLD we will take em

Australia has a very diverse climate...desert,jungle,tropics even snow.When we do use equipment in the top end,such as Tanks,choppers,aircraft...the equipment is usually fitted with filters,to reduce the impact of dust.

IPA could you elaborate more,or provide a link on the dust problems of the Dutch PZH 2000.

Thanx

 

[IPA35]

This is from wiki:

The PzH 2000 was used for the first time in combat by the Dutch Army in August 2006 against Taliban targets in Kandahar Province, Afghanistan, in support of Operation Medusa. [2] Since then it has been used regularly in support of coalition troops in Uruzgan province, also in Afghanistan. The PzH 2000 was also used extensively during the Battle of Chora. It is known as "the long arm of ISAF"[citation needed]. The gun has been criticised by the Dutch in Uruzgan province as the NBC system designed for use in Europe cannot cope with the high level of dust in Afghanistan. The guns have been nicknamed the 'beasts of Tarin Kowt' by the Taliban[2]. The guns have been modified with additional armor being fitted to the roof to protect against mortar rounds. There have been other reports of problems including the need to keep it in the shade unless actually firing, the damage it does to poorly built roads and a significant 'cold gun' effect necessitating the use of 'warmers'.

There are some letters to the MoD, about the PzH too, but those are in Dutch...

I'm afraid it might to be THE perfect gun for Australia...
(Sand and dirt cause pollution and wear...)

And please don't buy ours, IMO we need 48 active guns if we want to retain 2 brigades

 

[Firn]

Could you post the letters? I can read Dutch fair enough.

P.S: I don't think that the problems with dust are specific to the PZH2000.

 

[IPA35]

Both are the same, I saw it in the google preview under the link, so you will have to search.

It is about presision guided ammo for the Phz but appearently it mentions the dust problem, but maybe a filter helps?
http://rijksbegroting.minfin.nl/binaries/pdfs/1/1/9/kst119253.pdf
And this PDF:
http://www.defensie.nl/_system/hand...asdef_op_verzoek_08-DEF-B-072_tcm46-90857.pdf

But I read it before somewhere.

EDIT:

De Task Force Uruzgan (TFU) heeft goede ervaringen met de PzH2000. Het wapensysteem is de afgelopen twee jaren in Afghanistan zeer betrouwbaar gebleken en ook de beschikbaarheid was goed. Er zijn in Afghanistan
drie PzH2000-systemen ingezet. Twee daarvan zijn permanent operationeel en het derde is de operationele en logistieke reserve. Net als alle andere voertuigen en wapensystemen van de TFU heeft de PzH2000 last van vervuiling en slijtage door zand en stof. Door extra onderhoud zijn er geen structurele problemen met het systeem geweest.

So extra maintainance is needed.
But that's OK for a system used abroad but if the guns in your own country ned alot of extra maintainance, it might be better to find an alterative...

 

[Firn]

Both are the same, I saw it in the google preview under the link, so you will have to search.

It is about presision guided ammo for the Phz but appearently it mentions the dust problem, but maybe a filter helps?
http://rijksbegroting.minfin.nl/binaries/pdfs/1/1/9/kst119253.pdf
And this PDF:
http://www.defensie.nl/_system/hand...asdef_op_verzoek_08-DEF-B-072_tcm46-90857.pdf

But I read it before somewhere.

EDIT:

So extra maintainance is needed.
But that's OK for a system used abroad but if the guns in your own country ned alot of extra maintainance, it might be better to find an alterative...

Hm, it seems at least to me that the extra maintainance was within the expected norm, given that almost all heavy vehicles like the Leo I of the Canadians had their fair share of trouble with the fine dust. Not wonder if one operates in a dustbowl like Afghanistan. Some further modifications (filters, etc) might adapt it better to such an evironment.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Some further modifications (filters, etc) might adapt it better to such an evironment.

The filter tech exists, it just seems that the canucks have not used some of the now leading edge gear available.

eg 4 years ago I assessed a new filter design done by an australian company which was able triple existing filter technology endurance... thats a significant saving at both the logistics and platform availability level

 

[canned happines]

THE AGE
Brendan Nicholson
December 15, 2006

A $1 BILLION strategy to tackle the defence recruiting crisis has been approved by federal cabinet.
Prime Minister John Howard today will announce plans to boost the army, navy and air force by 6000 men and women.
A major component will be spending $306 million over 10 years on a military "gap year" scheme that will allow up to 1000 17 to 24-year-olds each year to spend a year in the services within two years of finishing year 12. They would be able to taste the military lifestyle and training, and would not have to stay if they don't like it.

Defence forces get more muscle in $1 billion strategy - National - theage.com.au

What are your thoughts? Personally, I applaud the government for shortening the general entry application time and I'd also like to see how far they relax the medical criteria, particularly when it comes to eyesight and orthotics.

It's a good idea for all those who have finished year 12. I think they should do it for all education levels in the army, not just those who are likely to become officers etc. I think most peoples problem with joining is the minimum service term. True you can join reserves but that is not the same as experiencing full time. I am also interested to see the changes in the medical tests..

 

[kato]

The Germans do have a large number of stored phz's.

Err, the Bundeswehr is retaining 153 out of 185 procured PzH 2000 in active service. 32 isn't a large number. We could offer some 500 M109 though...

 

[hairyman]

And we are thinking of buying 18?

 

[PeterM]

And we are thinking of buying 18?

pretty sure it is between 12-18 units