World War II: Germany vs Britain (minus USA)

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riksavage

Banned Member
First of all. You just can't compare vehicle to vehicle. There is a difference between a "Churchil" and a Pzkv IV (aus F2), one of them being that the panzer was more ressource intensive and another being that it would destroy the churchill in all but the most unfavorable circumstances.

Second of all 1942 is before german industry was converted into total war production (that happens early in the UK), when that is done you see f.ex. german tank production peak, dispite ressource shortings and bombings in late 43 early 44. Again the german tanks was more elaborate and difficult to produce than
allied tanks, though (from Pz IV and onwards) held a decissive advantage on the battlefield, while having complete advantage over western allied tanks the russians fielded tanks that could content at a disadvantage.

You are also forgetting that the UK drew heavely on financial surport from the US, without that the UK could not have mobilised such large part of the production into armament (btw the finance part of the deal spelled the doom of the british empire).

You focuss a lot on the RN, but forget the reality, displayed in Lord Pound's admission the Churchill that the RN could no longer gurantee the isles. It was air power and not hulks of steel that mattered - as displayed in the pacific.

I agree that particulary the sluggish german production of airplanes became a factor in it's defeat. It's an interesting subject that the nazi regime failed to stream line production of a few workhorses be that airplanes, tanks or trucks but again and again made the error of diverting huge ressources into development and production of a number fantastic but always scarce types. Though it has to be underlined that the german types as a rule were superior from a technological point of view. In the air war the german technical superiority becomes potentially "war winning" a year or so too late.
German industrial production in WWII was extremely inefficient and whilst many people like to praise the likes of Albert Speer, he didn't have the same impact on industrial production as Lord Beavorbrook's early war initiatives. Remember Germany was preparing for war many years before Britain, the UK had to play catch-up and the country did an incredible job between 39 and 42 militarizing industry - hammering plowshares back into guns. The fact that Germany insisted on designing and prototyping endless designs using slow man-hour intensive production methods (German welded tank turrets vs. the cast turrets first introduced by the Russians) only added to their woes.

Whilst we can criticise early British attempts to compete with German tank designs, by 1944 Britain had overtaken the Germans technologically. The Comet and Centurion (the latter arriving in 1945 just as the war ended) was better than anything the Germans had on the field or planned taking into consideration the critical balance between firepower, mobility and armour. The 17pdr for one was superior to the 88mm, nevermind the later 20pdr. And lets not forget the Centurion went on to be arguably the most successful post war combat proven battle tank (Korea, Vietnam, Indo-Pakistan Wars, Israelis / ME conflict), finally setting the NATO standard with its retrofitted 105mm main armament. Versions of which still serve today in the South African and Israeli armies.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index....ser-tank-a34&catid=37:cruiser-tanks&Itemid=56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_tank

This whole argument about the US not supporting Britain financially defies all free-market economics. US industry would not have accepted not being able to profit from the supply of war materials regardless of whether its own Government decided to join Britain on the battlefields of Europe. American industry would have seen it as an opportunity to drive the US out of the depression of the 30's - a means to create milions of jobs. WWII not the Tennessee Valley Authority initiatives pulled the country out of recession.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
Link below reference an interview with Rommel's driver (now in his 80's) taken from the UK Independent. Interestingly he quotes an example where Rommel and British troops shared a smoke together in the desert after running into each other on patrol. I wonder what would have happened if the Brit patrol had simply shot him dead? Paddy Maine spent many a cold night hunting Rommel, he would have had no qualms about shooting the General.

Rudolf Schneider: 'I was Rommel's driver' - News, People - The Independent
 

Beatmaster

New Member
As history did show that:

Germany's allies during World War Two were Italy and Japan. Together, Japan, Italy, Hungry, Slovakia, Romania,and Bulgaria made up the Axis.
I believe the nickname for them was the Axis of evil or the Tri axis. Search those phrases and you should be able to find plenty of info.

Germany's allies in WW2 were Austria (as part of the Greater German Republic), Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, Hungary, Italy, Iraq, Romania, Slovak Republic, Thailand, Yugoslavia. Germany, Italy and Japan also had a number of puppet states that provided assistance such as Albania, Vischy France, Spain, Portugal, Burma,... And a number of countries provided soldiers for the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS including the US, Britain, Poland, Denmark, Holland....

US and Brtian soldiers in wehrmacht? YES some of them did fight on german side.

So IMHO the US would have been at war with Germany sooner or later.
For example even if Hitler would not declare war on the US then Japan would have been the reason that the US was forced to go to war with Japan due the attack on PH what eventually is equal to attacking Germany because hitler and Japan where allies.
Without russia's help and massive manpower brittian would have been defeated.....perhaps not a military victory but a more symbolic victory because if Germany could avoid to go to war with Stalin than it would have so mutch more recources to make a stand against brittain, specially when Hitler would have lissend to his staff because the US and UK did have great commanders and generals but germany did have also a few masterminds on the battle field.
And the ideas that those german commanders did have where acctually brilliant and if hitler would go for the ideas of its generals than eventually would have boosted the german power in such away that the war itself would neither be won neither be lost....but germany would have maintained its iron stronghold in europa.
And the UK was forced to sign a peace treathy eventually because the overall cost would have so huge that the very survival of UK would be at risk.
Germany did not have air superiority but it did have the V1 and V2 rockets and those rockets did have a devastating effect on the moral of the english people.
As some have said UK would eventually have a atomic bomb to trow at germany but on the otherhand germany itself did alost have atomic power themselfs it would be a matter of months acctually in 1941 the first atomic based bomb ( Or lookalike) where tested by the german forces.

The German "uranium project" - which had been set up in 1939 to investigate nuclear reactors, isotope separation and nuclear explosives - amounted to no more than a few dozen scientists scattered across the country. Many of them did not even devote all of their time to nuclear-weapons research. The Manhattan Project, in contrast, employed thousands of scientists, engineers and technicians, and cost several billion dollars.
However, newly discovered historical material makes this story more complicated - and much more interesting, because it did show that germany did have the right plans to build a working bomb in 1941 but due the lack of brains by hitler (if he would have lissen to his generals than the war would go mutch better for germany) the project where halted or temp dimissed.
My point here is that leaving US out of the war is even theoretical not possible.
You can come up with any senario you can think of but the scale of wwar II was so huge that the US must go to war with Germany sooner or later.
There is not a single senario that could leave US power out of the war.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
As history did show that:

Germany's allies during World War Two were Italy and Japan. Together, Japan, Italy, Hungry, Slovakia, Romania,and Bulgaria made up the Axis.
I believe the nickname for them was the Axis of evil or the Tri axis. Search those phrases and you should be able to find plenty of info.

Germany's allies in WW2 were Austria (as part of the Greater German Republic), Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, Hungary, Italy, Iraq, Romania, Slovak Republic, Thailand, Yugoslavia. Germany, Italy and Japan also had a number of puppet states that provided assistance such as Albania, Vischy France, Spain, Portugal, Burma,... And a number of countries provided soldiers for the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS including the US, Britain, Poland, Denmark, Holland.... ....
Rather inaccurate.
Finland was never an ally. It was a co-belligerent, which is a subtle but significant distinction. They both happened to be fighting the same country (the USSR), but Finland did not declare war on the UK, or any other of Germanys enemies, nor assist Germany against them.
Iraq was never really an ally. There was a pro-Axis coup in 1941, but the new government lasted less than 2 months. It decided to make a military demonstration outside one of the two British bases in the country, & the result was the rapid rout of its army & air force by much smaller British forces, & the return of some of the politicians who'd been replaced in the coup.
Yugoslavia was never allied to Germany. It fought the Axis, lost, & was dismembered. Croatia was given independence under a pro-German government. The rest fought a partisan war until the Red Army arrived.
Portugal never provided any assistance to Germany. It was neutral for much of the war, but in 1943 it allowed Allied air bases to be built in the Azores. Japan conquered Portuguese colonies (Macao & East Timor), & Portugal considered itself to be at war with Japan.
Thailand was neutral until invaded by Japan. It capitulated, & was occupied. It was never an ally.
Burma was a British colony, conquered by Japan in 1942. The Burmese puppet government the Japanese installed did not control the country, & was entirely dependent on Japanese troops. It couldn't raise enough troops to keep down its own people, let alone assist Japan.
Albania wasn't a puppet state, it was conquered territory, intended to be integrated into Italy.
Spain wasn't a puppet state. It remained formally neutral, sending "volunteers" (i.e. troops who could be disowned as unofficial) to fight the USSR, but not making any hostile moves against the Western allies. It refused to declare war, & rejected German requests for help against Britain, e.g. in taking Gibraltar, or establishing German air bases in Spain or the Canary islands.
Croatia & Slovakia were puppet states, established by the Germans.
The Axis of Evil is a modern name. The "Axis" was the Rome-Berlin Axis, from 1936. The later treaty between Germany, Japan & Italy was the Tripartite Pact.
Vichy France was not a belligerent. It co-operated with Germany, but passively. It defended its overseas territories when attacked, but otherwise did not take military action against the Allies. BTW, those supposed Axis allies or puppet states Thailand & Vichy France fought a small war in 1940-41.
The USA & Britain did not supply troops to the Axis. A few (very few) individuals, mostly if not all prisoners of war & internees, volunteered to fight for the Axis. They were treated as traitors by the US & British governments. The Germans & Italians recruited in conquered countries, getting many recruits in some & few in others - but they were individuals, not the countries.
 
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Beatmaster

New Member
Rather inaccurate.
Finland was never an ally. It was a co-belligerent, which is a subtle but significant distinction. They both happened to be fighting the same country (the USSR), but Finland did not declare war on the UK, or any other of Germanys enemies, nor assist Germany against them.
Iraq was never really an ally. There was a pro-Axis coup in 1941, but the new government lasted less than 2 months. It decided to make a military demonstration outside one of the two British bases in the country, & the result was the rapid rout of its army & air force by much smaller British forces, & the return of some of the politicians who'd been replaced in the coup.
Yugoslavia was never allied to Germany. It fought the Axis, lost, & was dismembered. Croatia was given independence under a pro-German government. The rest fought a partisan war until the Red Army arrived.
Portugal never provided any assistance to Germany. It was neutral for much of the war, but in 1943 it allowed Allied air bases to be built in the Azores. Japan conquered Portuguese colonies (Macao & East Timor), & Portugal considered itself to be at war with Japan.
Thailand was neutral until invaded by Japan. It capitulated, & was occupied. It was never an ally.
Burma was a British colony, conquered by Japan in 1942. The Burmese puppet government the Japanese installed did not control the country, & was entirely dependent on Japanese troops. It couldn't raise enough troops to keep down its own people, let alone assist Japan.
Albania wasn't a puppet state, it was conquered territory, intended to be integrated into Italy.
Spain wasn't a puppet state. It remained formally neutral, sending "volunteers" (i.e. troops who could be disowned as unofficial) to fight the USSR, but not making any hostile moves against the Western allies. It refused to declare war, & rejected German requests for help against Britain, e.g. in taking Gibraltar, or establishing German air bases in Spain or the Canary islands.
Croatia & Slovakia were puppet states, established by the Germans.
The Axis of Evil is a modern name. The "Axis" was the Rome-Berlin Axis, from 1936. The later treaty between Germany, Japan & Italy was the Tripartite Pact.
Vichy France was not a belligerent. It co-operated with Germany, but passively. It defended its overseas territories when attacked, but otherwise did not take military action against the Allies. BTW, those supposed Axis allies or puppet states Thailand & Vichy France fought a small war in 1940-41.
The USA & Britain did not supply troops to the Axis. A few (very few) individuals, mostly if not all prisoners of war & internees, volunteered to fight for the Axis. They were treated as traitors by the US & British governments. The Germans & Italians recruited in conquered countries, getting many recruits in some & few in others - but they were individuals, not the countries.
If iam inaccurate then the historybooks are inaccurate because this was for 90% a full copy from London School of Economics and Political Science Study group (Cambridge University Press) so NOPE iam not wrong.
All the named countries did have a small or big part as Germany's allies in WW2.
Some did host high ranking persons, Some did host research facilities, Some provided coal/fuel and steel (Like Finland) and some did have a active part in the war by providing troops and tanks.
So even if they did not fight the war itself they still belong to the Axis and they each contributed to Hitlers war machine....without them Hitler would face huge difficulties in getting his recources.
For example the US was neutral to Hitler but at the same time its contribution to the UK war effort was huge by providing recources, laborforce and tanks and so on.....
Those so called puppet states did contribute a fairly amount of help to hitler as well,
Anyway you are claiming that many countries listed in the Axis list where neutral right? And yes and no you are right and at the same time you are wrong about that but they where neutral in the same way as the US was neutral to Germany....The only real thing they did was providing hitler with recources and labor force.

The reason why they did provide Hitler with recources is simple, they where neutral but the UK/US where powerless to protect them, Hitler and his staff knew this and exploited this to the very end so hitler gave them a option: stay neutral and provide me with recources or face a full invasion and become occupied.
You must not forget that anno 1940 the term neutral is not mean the same as anno 2009 specially if you are surrounded or nearby either Italy Germany or Japans forces.
Given the fact that Hitler did invade several countries that did have neutral status, so the neutral countries share a simple fact/fear: Hitlers word means crap so stay in his good favor for the time being or face destruction.
So willing or unwilling each country that has been listed was Axis this is proven history.

I fully respect your view and comment but in this case you are the one who is wrong about most of your reply buddy, and thats not a suprise because its a common mistake made by many more and even very smart people.
Because untill 2002 the info you provided is very correct, but new documents did rock the world with info about those so called neutral and puppet states because it came to light that they did a whole lot more than just being neutral, and lots of original data has made public what changes lots of views on what really happend in wwII.

References:

(2003)
When Japanese war planes attacked the U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941, most Americans believed that Germany had conspired with Japan to stage the attack. After examining President Roosevelt's statements and speeches, passages from the Congressional Record, various newspaper accounts and editorials, and opinion polls taken at the time.....
London School of Economics and Political Science
,(Cambridge University Press) study group 2000/2005
Part of the same study group:
Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press
Chicago: University of Chicago Press
Chapel Hill, N.C.: The University of North Carolina Press
Rotterdam Erasmus University.

*Note the study group did not have a website so contact on of the above groups for more info. Just call them and you will recieve a free package with info about this ^^

Edit:
You wrote:
The USA & Britain did not supply troops to the Axis. A few (very few) individuals, mostly if not all prisoners of war & internees, volunteered to fight for the Axis. They were treated as traitors by the US & British governments. The Germans & Italians recruited in conquered countries, getting many recruits in some & few in others - but they were individuals, not the countries.

True.....but the total contribution of allies that did fight for hitler was a bit more than a few individuals
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Where to start?

I have said nothing, in general. I have made a number of specific points. I believe that you have misinterpreted or misrepresented what you have read. Perhaps it's a linguistic problem. I see in your reply you have not addressed any of my specific points. Why not?

Let's start with some definitions:
An ally is active. A state which trades with you (as, for example, Switzerland did with Germany throughout WW2) is not an ally.

A state which has the same enemies is not necessarily an ally. Finland, for example, was careful not to sign any treaty of alliance, & to wage war only on the USSR. It had its own quarrel with the USSR (remember, it had been attacked in 1939), entirely separate from what Germany was doing. Finland was a co-belligerent. It's not quite the same thing.

You called Spain a "puppet state". Puppet states don't do their own thing as Spain did. Spain carefully maintained the legal status of a neutral, while providing limited assistance (which it pretended was unofficial) to the German war against the USSR - and only the USSR. It flatly refused to help Germany against the western allies, & Allied PoWs who got to Spain were not returned to Germany.

Portugal was a neutral which inclined towards the western Allies. It had (& has) an ancient treaty of friendship with England. Because it was weak & felt vulnerable, it made some accommodations with Germany when it felt it had to, as did Sweden & Switzerland, but when it did finally act in the war, it was to help the Allies, not the Axis. It was treated as an enemy by Germanys ally Japan - but you called it a puppet state of Germany.

You call Thailand a German ally, but it attacked French Indochina after France had capitulated to Germany, which is not the action of an ally, & fought (briefly) Germanys ally Japan when Japan demanded passage across Thai territory for Japanese troops & Thailand refused. After capitulating, it declared war on Britain & the USA (but never delivered the declarations, the ambassadors refusing to recognise the declaration), but this was done under duress. It was a puppet state of Japan, officially an ally but one which had been forced into the alliance & was treated in many ways as a conquered country, not an ally of Germany.

You call Yugoslavia an ally of Germany, but it fought Germany, was conquered, & then fought a very bloody guerilla war against German & Italian occupiers until the Red Army threw out the Germans.

You call conquered countries which were directly ruled by their conquerors (Albania & Burma - the puppet government of the latter was pure window dressing) puppet states. This is not correct. You call true puppet states (states created by, & subservient to, Germany, but self-governing) allies, e.g. Croatia & Slovakia.

You do not call Norway an ally or puppet state, although the Germans established a puppet government there.

I'm sure that your source makes the distinctions I do, rather than categorising the above territories as you do. I believe you have misunderstood what you have read.

Would you care to address any of the specific points I have made above?
 

Beatmaster

New Member
Where to start?

I have said nothing, in general. I have made a number of specific points. I believe that you have misinterpreted or misrepresented what you have read. Perhaps it's a linguistic problem. I see in your reply you have not addressed any of my specific points. Why not?
O sorry Swerve did not mean to be rude and yes i believe that a linguistic problem is cause of that i misinterpreted in some way.
My english is fine but sometimes i miss the core of the story due the fact that i do not always understand the build up of the story.
But i do understand you ...

I will adres your points later ok its 30+ outside so iam going to BBQ
 
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