PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[Vivendi]

Pak FA delayed?

Hi,

Stephen Trimble writes in his blog:

Sukhoi is suddenly coy about the prospects for the first flight of the T-50 demonstrator by end-year. It was only a few months ago that Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan confidently predicted the PAK-FA demonstrator would fly before 2010. Asked about that prediction today, he told reporters that Sukhoi would have more information about first flight at the Farnborough air show next July.

Random 5: Paris Air Show Day 1 - The DEW Line

Does anybody know more about this?

Not that it is a big surprise; as many have stated, building a 5th generation manned fighter is quite complex and complicated.

Vivendi

 

[tphuang]

Hi,

Stephen Trimble writes in his blog:



Random 5: Paris Air Show Day 1 - The DEW Line

Does anybody know more about this?

Not that it is a big surprise; as many have stated, building a 5th generation manned fighter is quite complex and complicated.

Vivendi

I don't think that surprised anyone considering all of the delays that Su-35 had and that was just a new variant of the flanker, not an entirely new plane like PAK-FA.

 

[fltworthy]

Although I am not surprised that there might be delays in the PAK-FA program, I also have the sense that the Russians have been holding their cards close to their chest all along.

Part of it is a long tradition of secrecy that is a relic of the Cold War. A US or European developer would already be doing a strip-tease, advertising artist's concepts and future capabilities that have not been proven.

Another element, however, is that the Russians have nothing to gain by showing their hand - and potentially everything to lose by laying down their cards prematurely. The US is on the verge of taking the F-22 out of production. Why prod the US with a potential adversary - real or imagined - at least until after the manufacturing tooling for the Raptor has been scrapped? Similarly, why would Russia want to prod China into accelerating China's own 5th generation fighter development effort?

The Russians have been playing coy all along. This is nothing new. . . Must be a slow day in the news room at Flight Global.

 

[gf0012-aust]

A US or European developer would already be doing a strip-tease, advertising artist's concepts and future capabilities that have not been proven.

US F117:, operational for 10 years before released. retired after 25 years of service and still no other country has a deployable or operational 5th generation LO manned combat aircraft in service

US B2: Squadrons active for 5 years before being released to the public

US Oxcart, YF-12, SR-71 family. Running operations 5 years before released to the public

US. U2-TR2 family. Operational for 5 years before being released to the public

US Have Blue POC aircraft - flying for 5 years and never released to the public until the F-117 was in service and a history was established

So, your argument about the west doing a striptease before release is just abject nonsense.

You might want to do some research before strutting into a forum making such claims.

 

[swerve]

... A US or European developer would already be doing a strip-tease, advertising artist's concepts and future capabilities that have not been proven....

The US has been covered. As for Europe - nothing operational, AFAIK, but plenty of secret projects -
Lampyridae - not revealed until some years after the project had been abandoned.
Replica - ditto.
The entire BAe stealthy UAV programme - secret for years. Flight tested in remote locations.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The entire BAe stealthy UAV programme - secret for years. Flight tested in remote locations.

UK, Poland and Japan have been testing aircraft concepts in the middle of australia for nigh on 5 years....

 

[Haavarla]

Although I am not surprised that there might be delays in the PAK-FA program, I also have the sense that the Russians have been holding their cards close to their chest all along.

Part of it is a long tradition of secrecy that is a relic of the Cold War. A US or European developer would already be doing a strip-tease, advertising artist's concepts and future capabilities that have not been proven.

Another element, however, is that the Russians have nothing to gain by showing their hand - and potentially everything to lose by laying down their cards prematurely. The US is on the verge of taking the F-22 out of production. Why prod the US with a potential adversary - real or imagined - at least until after the manufacturing tooling for the Raptor has been scrapped? Similarly, why would Russia want to prod China into accelerating China's own 5th generation fighter development effort?

The Russians have been playing coy all along. This is nothing new. . . Must be a slow day in the news room at Flight Global.

What is the Rush here?
The timeline for the operational PAK-FA is still around 2017, is it not?





Thanks

 

[roberto]

US F117:, operational for 10 years before released. retired after 25 years of service and still no other country has a deployable or operational 5th generation LO manned combat aircraft in service

US B2: Squadrons active for 5 years before being released to the public

US Oxcart, YF-12, SR-71 family. Running operations 5 years before released to the public

US. U2-TR2 family. Operational for 5 years before being released to the public

US Have Blue POC aircraft - flying for 5 years and never released to the public until the F-117 was in service and a history was established

So, your argument about the west doing a striptease before release is just abject nonsense.

You might want to do some research before strutting into a forum making such claims.

You cannot compare PAK-FA project with all the above projects. Russians are building perfect stealth fighter for next 50 years which they can put aircraft carrier also along with full multi-role. Not just Air to air like F-22 and A to G like F-35. (Does F-35 even supercrusie at high altitude?).
F-117/B-2 are prime example of useless R&D projects and have short life span. First B-2 squardon i believe only came in 1990s. Even F-22 is stopped at under 200. F-117 is stealth against 1980s airdefence system but certainly not against 21st century.
U can see Su-27 example compared to Su-24/Su-25. In less than 10 years There was 2 generation jump along with multirole capability and even Naval Flanker. I am expecting two generation jump in case of PAK-FA.

 

[Bonza]

Wow, where to start...

You cannot compare PAK-FA project with all the above projects.

He wasn't. He was providing data on the operations of Western low observability aircraft in response to another post's claims that Western aircraft manufacturers incite public noise around LO projects.

Not just Air to air like F-22

Wrong. The F-22 has limited ground attack capability.

and A to G like F-35.

Wrong again. The F-35 has significant air to air capability.

F-117/B-2 are prime example of useless R&D projects and have short life span.

That must be why so many countries are falling over themselves to produce LO aircraft.

Even F-22 is stopped at under 200.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning this.

F-117 is stealth against 1980s airdefence system but certainly not against 21st century.

The F-117's RCS has nothing to do with the discussion, but while we're at it, maybe you can provide me with information on a modern air defence system's ability to detect the F-117, along with a source.

U can see Su-27 example compared to Su-24/Su-25. In less than 10 years There was 2 generation jump along with multirole capability and even Naval Flanker. I am expecting two generation jump in case of PAK-FA.

By all means, expect away.

 

[roberto]

Wow, where to start...
He wasn't. He was providing data on the operations of Western low observability aircraft in response to another post's claims that Western aircraft manufacturers incite public noise around LO projects.

Thanks for Clarifiying. Anyway you cannot compare Russian project with Western Project. West can waste money on several insignificant projects but Russia has to make single project successful. so it is understandable they are not revealing it.

Wrong. The F-22 has limited ground attack capability.

And PAK-FA dont have limited ground attack abiltity. It is replacing all fighters in Ruaf.

Wrong again. The F-35 has significant air to air capability.

F-35 dont supecruise nor it can fly high like MIG-31. I am nost sure its noze size is big enough for large size radars.

That must be why so many countries are falling over themselves to produce LO aircraft.

Always remember modern Stealth ideas came from Russian scientist. The rest of countries are just on paper. they cant make 21st century Stealth fighter. Key emphasis is 21st century time line for next 50 years atleast.

The F-117's RCS has nothing to do with the discussion, but while we're at it, maybe you can provide me with information on a modern air defence system's ability to detect the F-117, along with a source.

F-117 has been shot by Yugo airdefence system. which are atleast 50 years behind than Almaz-Antei.

By all means, expect away.

Past is important indicator of expectation. Sukhoi managed Su-27/Su-34/Su-35/Sukho RRJ in low budget environment. They are the first to implement supermanevourability concept without increasing the weight of aircraft.
The first to carry 10 tons fuel inside modern Fighter aircraft not in bomber. In Su-35 it is 11.5tons. I am expecting nothng short of miracle.

 

[Bonza]

Always remember modern Stealth ideas came from Russian scientist. The rest of countries are just on paper. they cant make 21st century Stealth fighter. Key emphasis is 21st century time line for next 50 years atleast.

Are you serious? Do you honestly believe Russia has an edge in producing a "21st century stealth fighter" when they have ZERO in-service LO platforms, whereas a country like the United States has been successfully fielding LO platforms for decades? I'm not trying to turn this into some "Russia vs US" argument, but please. The irony of your assertion that the LO ideas of countries other than Russia exist only on paper is, in the face of the United States' research into and deployment of low observability platforms, completely laughable.

As far as the PAK-FA's projected ground attack capability and the F-35's lack of supercruise, I think you missed my point. I wasn't seeking to compare the F-22 to the PAK-FA, or the F-35 to the MIG-31 or any other platform. I was pointing out that your assertions about the F-22 and F-35, which you presented as thought they were fact, were incorrect, and that maybe you should read into the capabilities of an aircraft more carefully before you post on a forum where your words will be interpreted literally.

 

[tphuang]

UK, Poland and Japan have been testing aircraft concepts in the middle of australia for nigh on 5 years....

just wondering Gary, why are they doing it Australia instead of their own country?

 

[roberto]

Are you serious? Do you honestly believe Russia has an edge in producing a "21st century stealth fighter" when they have ZERO in-service LO platforms, whereas a country like the United States has been successfully fielding LO platforms for decades? I'm not trying to turn this into some "Russia vs US" argument, but please. The irony of your assertion that the LO ideas of countries other than Russia exist only on paper is, in the face of the United States' research into and deployment of low observability platforms, completely laughable.

tell me what great fighter before Su-27 was built by Sukhoi?. Sukhoi has managed to do impossible. There is nothing special about Lo platform. provided it is practical, maintaianance friendly, and relatively cheaply produced. Russians are masters of aerodynamcs/FBW/Software. They can make even a brick to fly with supermaneourability. what other country can do FBW control 3D TVC into such large platform.
just look Sukhoi SSJ project. how efficiently Sukhoi integrated A-380 avionics into smaller airline with super efficient management of East-West suppliers with only 6 month delay in project and that due to engines.

As far as the PAK-FA's projected ground attack capability and the F-35's lack of supercruise, I think you missed my point. I wasn't seeking to compare the F-22 to the PAK-FA, or the F-35 to the MIG-31 or any other platform. I was pointing out that your assertions about the F-22 and F-35, which you presented as thought they were fact, were incorrect, and that maybe you should read into the capabilities of an aircraft more carefully before you post on a forum where your words will be interpreted literally.

All i am saying PAK-FA is more complex project than single minded F-22/F-117/F-35. It s combining Ultramanevourability/Supercruise/Strike/high altitude/Long range into single platform. So it will take a little more time.

 

[Bonza]

tell me what great fighter before Su-27 was built by Sukhoi?. Sukhoi has managed to do impossible. There is nothing special about Lo platform. provided it is practical, maintaianance friendly, and relatively cheaply produced. Russians are masters of aerodynamcs/FBW/Software. They can make even a brick to fly with supermaneourability. what other country can do FBW control 3D TVC into such large platform.
just look Sukhoi SSJ project. how efficiently Sukhoi integrated A-380 avionics into smaller airline with super efficient management of East-West suppliers with only 6 month delay in project and that due to engines.

It's clear from this and previous responses that you're totally biased in Russia's favor. Nothing wrong with patriotism, but when it overrides logic and colours attempts at reasoned discussion with opinion and wild speculation, I get bored pretty quickly.

So good luck with it, but I'm through with responding.

 

[SkolZkiy]

Guys take it easy =) once more - NOBODY KNOWS ANY REAL INFO ABOUT PAK-FA =)))
Just some notes. For frontier strike atacks we have SU-24M and Su-25 that a modernizing. We have 200 interceptors MiG-31 which are modernizing to MiG-31BM (new radar, new AAM) with cruise speed 2450 km/h
and of course MiG-29 and Su-27.
I think that PAK-FA will replace SU-27 and MiG-29 and that's something like 500-600 AC but if project of LFI would be realized (and i have reasons to think that it would be) then we'll have something like 300-400 PAK-FA and 300 LFI - this is RuAF.
But also we have project of 6 aircarrier groups then we must plus there airwings.
All this is perspective.

But Russia will not reject of using such AC as Su-34 and Su-39 - we have understood and these AC a very good for their purposes.

PAK-FA would be in service in 2015

 

[swerve]

just wondering Gary, why are they doing it Australia instead of their own country?

Easy. Remoteness & good weather. Woomera is in the middle of nowhere. You can fly around unobserved, within the boundaries of the range. If something goes wrong, wreckage is easily recovered. For most of the year, there's excellent flying weather.

Compare with the UK, Poland, & Japan. Much denser population. Japan & the UK have remote corners with few people (Polands population is sparser, but more evenly spread), but they're either mountainous, coastal, or both. Windy & wet for much of the year, & if anything goes wrong, wreckage is underwater, or somewhere up a mountain in among millions of trees, & hard to get at in either case.

It can be cheaper to fly kit & people to Woomera, do your tests, & fly everything home, than have the entire team sitting around waiting for good weather off St. Kilda, Iwo Jima, or wherever. You get your tests done sooner, which is important. They're less likely to be seen. And when they fail, it's a damn sight easier to find out why. Consider the loss to EADS of the Barracuda off SW Spain. If that had crashed in the desert near Woomera, they'd have had the entire wreck to examine. Much, much, better.

 

[blueorchid]

tell me what great fighter before Su-27 was built by Sukhoi?. Sukhoi has managed to do impossible. There is nothing special about Lo platform. provided it is practical, maintaianance friendly, and relatively cheaply produced. Russians are masters of aerodynamcs/FBW/Software. They can make even a brick to fly with supermaneourability. what other country can do FBW control 3D TVC into such large platform.
just look Sukhoi SSJ project. how efficiently Sukhoi integrated A-380 avionics into smaller airline with super efficient management of East-West suppliers with only 6 month delay in project and that due to engines.


All i am saying PAK-FA is more complex project than single minded F-22/F-117/F-35. It s combining Ultramanevourability/Supercruise/Strike/high altitude/Long range into single platform. So it will take a little more time.

nfloorl:Roberto you are pulling our leg, I have not had such a good laugh from a defence post in years.

Thank you, cheers

 

[F35Owns]

tell me what great fighter before Su-27 was built by Sukhoi?. Sukhoi has managed to do impossible. There is nothing special about Lo platform. provided it is practical, maintaianance friendly, and relatively cheaply produced. Russians are masters of aerodynamcs/FBW/Software. They can make even a brick to fly with supermaneourability. what other country can do FBW control 3D TVC into such large platform.
just look Sukhoi SSJ project. how efficiently Sukhoi integrated A-380 avionics into smaller airline with super efficient management of East-West suppliers with only 6 month delay in project and that due to engines.


All i am saying PAK-FA is more complex project than single minded F-22/F-117/F-35. It s combining Ultramanevourability/Supercruise/Strike/high altitude/Long range into single platform. So it will take a little more time.

Quick question for you Roberto. I see you buy into the Russian propaganda. Here we go...Simple, how can Russia afford it? Lets see....you have 125 million people, and dropping every year. You need warm-bodies to grow an economy. Economics 101, kiddo.

Also, reguarding the PAK-FA....if Russia can't even build a working SU-35, how are they going to build a more advanced fighter??

Here is some TRUE news. Your advanced Sukhoi fighters, where destroyed 140:0 by American F-15's

I love Russian and Chinese propaganda....all bark. no bite.

 

[fltworthy]

US F117:, operational for 10 years before released. retired after 25 years of service and still no other country has a deployable or operational 5th generation LO manned combat aircraft in service

US B2: Squadrons active for 5 years before being released to the public

US Oxcart, YF-12, SR-71 family. Running operations 5 years before released to the public

US. U2-TR2 family. Operational for 5 years before being released to the public

US Have Blue POC aircraft - flying for 5 years and never released to the public until the F-117 was in service and a history was established

So, your argument about the west doing a striptease before release is just abject nonsense.

You might want to do some research before strutting into a forum making such claims.

F117: Not offered for export
B-2: Not offered for export
Oxcart, YF-12, SR-71: Not offered for export
U2-TR2: Not offered for export
Have Blue POC aircraft: Not offered for export

There's a world of difference between a black program that is never intended for the export market, and a fighter development program that is fully expected to be sold abroad.

The Russians have already lined up India as the first export customer for the PAK-FA, to help secure the necessary funding to launch the program. Yet outside of India, the Russians have been unwilling to share what the airplane looks like, or what its basic performance parameters are expected to be. You can contrast that with the massive amount of publicity that surrounds such aircraft as the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, or F-35 - even before they were available in production.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

just wondering Gary, why are they doing it Australia instead of their own country?

I think its due to adequate facilities, privacy and space. There is a heap of space out there and there isnt all that much in the UK, Japan or Poland. We did a lot of Hypersonic tests with the US here as well for similar reasons.