PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[Viktor]

I suspect they will be in a rush to show it off as soon as it flies. The Su-35BM was demonstrated very quickly, and the PAK-FA is a very publicity oriented program. It's a sign that Russia isn't behind. It would also be the first major post-Soviet aircraft design. I mean unless we want to consider things like the Yak-130, etc.

I dont think its a public oriented program. We have not seen even one picture of it officialy. Who needs to know ... knows .. but public is not it.
Remember US proudly displays all its future weapons program but not Russia. Basicly you have no idea what it will look like until it flys.

 

[Haavarla]

I dont think its a public oriented program. We have not seen even one picture of it officialy. Who needs to know ... knows .. but public is not it.
Remember US proudly displays all its future weapons program but not Russia. Basicly you have no idea what it will look like until it flys.

I think this will happen:
The JCS will keep a lidd on the PAK-FA program right until the first prototype first flight!
Then we will see a change of pace..
They will use the media for what its worth, trying to promote and sell the PAK-FA.
Remember that export is the name of the game.
JCS want to see results and earn back all the investment in the PAK-FA program, and hopefully the entire project will be a sucess.

I think this is logical..

 

[Grand Danois]

I dont think its a public oriented program. We have not seen even one picture of it officialy. Who needs to know ... knows .. but public is not it.
Remember US proudly displays all its future weapons program but not Russia. Basicly you have no idea what it will look like until it flys.

No it doesn't. The US black projects run at about $40 billion a year.

I'm hoping we'll see some shots of the PAK-FA prototype this year. CGI drawings are cool but a few real shots would really be awesome for some speculations.

 

[Feanor]

We won't see any this year. Because this year ends in what 4 days? But I hope we will get some next year.

EDIT: A shot of the airframe will at least tell us whether it's designed VLO, and how.

 

[Grand Danois]

We won't see any this year. Because this year ends in what 4 days? But I hope we will get some next year.

EDIT: A shot of the airframe will at least tell us whether it's designed VLO, and how.

I was thinking 2009.

 

[Salty Dog]

I think this will happen:
The JCS will keep a lidd on the PAK-FA program right until the first prototype first flight!
Then we will see a change of pace..
They will use the media for what its worth, trying to promote and sell the PAK-FA.
Remember that export is the name of the game.
JCS want to see results and earn back all the investment in the PAK-FA program, and hopefully the entire project will be a sucess.

I think this is logical..

I suppose you mean the "JSC" - Sukhoi Design Bureau.

 

[Haavarla]

I suppose you mean the "JSC" - Sukhoi Design Bureau.

Jepp, JSC that is.

 

[nevidimka]

Wow, that design looks good even if its AC6. The Jap's really have some nice ideas with their designs in the AC series.

Hopefully the real PAK FA will be of a new revolutionary design, like how this AC6 image created.

 

[longbow]

I have just finished reading the entire thread, and must say thanks to the participants, it has been an interesting read.

As far as i can understand, there is not to much definitive information about the PAK FA in the public domain. I'm wondering, do anyone know if the information is there in "other domains", perhaps some information has found it's way to some part of NATO?

Do anyone know if specifications like the physical structure, range, speed, internal payload, external payload and RCS size has been set? Surely there must be some criteria and demands that the PAK FA must meet? At least some "design goals" must have been set?

I'm not asking about specific information, just whether this kind of information is known within communities that are not known to "armchair generals" like me?

 

[SkolZkiy]

there is no official info about this =) they only say common things such as supercruise, stealth, internal playload and so on =) nothing more

 

[macman]

You can find the basic projected specs at a few places:
http://www.warfare.ru/?catid=255&linkid=2280
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAK-FA

How accurate they are is questionable, & there doesn't seem to be anything more authoritative around, but you can get a decent idea from this.

Basically, it will be slighty bigger than the Raptor, a little lighter, with the Raptor having a slight edge in top speed & in supercruise. Rest of the specs seem similar, RCS unknown.

Doubt we will get anything really authoritative until late 2009 after prototype testing has begun, & really solid until after the AL-41 engine has completed development.

 

[Viktor]

No it doesn't. The US black projects run at about $40 billion a year.

I'm hoping we'll see some shots of the PAK-FA prototype this year. CGI drawings are cool but a few real shots would really be awesome for some speculations.

Thats different .. cozz in US black programs you dont even know on what thing are they working so you dont have any desires towards something you dont even know it exists.

PAK-FA is different .. its being said about it for years now from all kinds of public sources but still not even one official picture.

On the contrary we have seen official pics of JSF contender and FF-22 and that Black Widow fighters since the start... and US has many tv series about its advanced weaponary that will enter service in time... so in that sence this is different

 

[Feanor]

I'm not asking about specific information, just whether this kind of information is known within communities that are not known to "armchair generals" like me?

THe only info we have is official Russian statements that the project will a Raptor+1 in terms of capabilities. As you might imagine, not very helpful. I doubt you'll find any other information, regardless of what communities you look in. I can't think of any way that additional info would find it's way onto the internet. Though if you do find something, please post it here. We're all anxious for more info.

 

[nevidimka]

I'm curious, the PAK FA is destined to be a joint venture that will be sold abroad like the JSF, but it is touted as a Raptor equivalent. How is Russia planning to make a plane in the F 22 category and then sell it? Its gonna compromise alot of sensitive tech, not mentioning it may fall into NATO hands if it is sold o other countries.

Its like US selling their F 22 and risking it falling into Russian hands.

Either that or the Russian-Indian version is gonna have a huge deviation and the plane sold abroad is gonna resemble the Indian more compared to the Russian 1.

Or Russia is gonna lock down the plane exclusively for Russia-India and focus on Su 35 for foreign markets.

 

[Haavarla]

I'm curious, the PAK FA is destined to be a joint venture that will be sold abroad like the JSF, but it is touted as a Raptor equivalent. How is Russia planning to make a plane in the F 22 category and then sell it? Its gonna compromise alot of sensitive tech, not mentioning it may fall into NATO hands if it is sold o other countries.

Its like US selling their F 22 and risking it falling into Russian hands.

Either that or the Russian-Indian version is gonna have a huge deviation and the plane sold abroad is gonna resemble the Indian more compared to the Russian 1.

Or Russia is gonna lock down the plane exclusively for Russia-India and focus on Su 35 for foreign markets.

Maybe Russia will hold back their newest avionics(radar, sensor and such) from the Indians and other contries?

I doubt that they will sell a PAK-FA version with less LO than the PAK-FA version ment for the RuAF..

 

[Haavarla]

You can find the basic projected specs at a few places:
http://www.warfare.ru/?catid=255&linkid=2280
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAK-FA

How accurate they are is questionable, & there doesn't seem to be anything more authoritative around, but you can get a decent idea from this.

Basically, it will be slighty bigger than the Raptor, a little lighter, with the Raptor having a slight edge in top speed & in supercruise. Rest of the specs seem similar, RCS unknown.

Doubt we will get anything really authoritative until late 2009 after prototype testing has begun, & really solid until after the AL-41 engine has completed development.

What IS clear is that the Engine on the first PAK-FA prototype will be a article 117-S type.
It's unclear when the AL-41F is ready for the PAK-FA, but it could mean a couple of years later on..

There is some rumour that the AL-41F will be on one of the Su-34 pre-production unit. The Su-34 will function as a in-flight testbed for the AL-41F engines.
If a Su-34 is seen flying from the ZHUKOVSKY air base(Moscow Region) in the near future, there may be some truth in this..

Again there is very little info on these matter, but the 117-S engine have a 14.500kgf thrust and the AL-41F is target for max 15.500kgf+ thrust regime..

Wiki: "Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 ton thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut."

Isn't 17.500kgf a very high number?
What is the max thrust on the F-22A engines, around 16.000kgf+?
Wiki:
"2× Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans, 35,000+ lb (156+ kN) each."

 

[hellfire]

What IS clear is that the Engine on the first PAK-FA prototype will be a article 117-S type.
It's unclear when the AL-41F is ready for the PAK-FA, but it could mean a couple of years later on..

There is some rumour that the AL-41F will be on one of the Su-34 pre-production unit. The Su-34 will function as a in-flight testbed for the AL-41F engines.
If a Su-34 is seen flying from the ZHUKOVSKY air base(Moscow Region) in the near future, there may be some truth in this..

Again there is very little info on these matter, but the 117-S engine have a 14.500kgf thrust and the AL-41F is target for max 15.500kgf+ thrust regime..

Wiki: "Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 ton thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut."

Isn't 17.500kgf a very high number?
What is the max thrust on the F-22A engines, around 16.000kgf+?
Wiki:
"2× Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans, 35,000+ lb (156+ kN) each."

well we still dont know the actual trust of P&W F119 engines, since it is still classified,but the F135/136 engines for the F35 make about 40000lb,so 17.5kgf is not a high number.

 

[nevidimka]

FSW, what if's

the thing is stealth is in a huge way determined by the shape of the plane. The F22 did not compromise this and the F 35 did. So is Russia gonna sell the PAK FA designed to be optimum for stealth to customer countries?

 

[Haavarla]

well we still dont know the actual trust of P&W F119 engines, since it is still classified,but the F135/136 engines for the F35 make about 40000lb,so 17.5kgf is not a high number.

Yeah, i know.
But the F135/136 engine is build around a singel engine airframe.
In the size prospective this is not the same thing, a mean just looking at the F-35 engine.. it look so enormous with that big **s nozzle.

ok, so we don't actually know the F135/136 and the P&W F119 thrust regime.

One could argue that the thrust spec's given on the 117-S, AL-31MF and AL-41F are somewhat misleading then?

In this respect, strange that some people criticize the Russian for not releasing enough data on the PAK-FA/Su-35/Su-34. Or that the Data given is faulty..

 

[Haavarla]

the thing is stealth is in a huge way determined by the shape of the plane. The F22 did not compromise this and the F 35 did. So is Russia gonna sell the PAK FA designed to be optimum for stealth to customer countries?

The word is that there will be 2 slightly different airframe, 1 vs 2 seater?

Different shape of the airframe, say one export and one domestic will rise the cost of the program and possible per unit too?