Backwards. MiG is having major difficulties and is being kept afloat. Except they're all being merged into the United Aircraft-building Corporation. Along with Ilyushin, Tupolev, and others.
Resurgence of the Soviet Union?
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Are you incapable of staying on topic in a conversation? Quit spewing random factoids and going off on tangents. Believe me I'm well aware of Russian helicopter production and sales. Anyways. Back to price hikes. Do you, or do you not, realize that price hikes in Russian defense deals are a sign of the poor state of the industry?
It's not about ethnicity. It's not about prison population. It's about internal stability. In the US you don't have crowds of protesters clashing with the police on a regular basis. You don't have a single mainstream political clan dominating the country, with powerful radicalized street movements on the sidelines.
One more time. Logistics is about more/b] then helicopters. Do you realize that?
First off that's why Tu-22MR from the 42nd Independent Recon Rgt were used in the war. One of them was even shot down. Second off the KAB-500s were used against fixed targets, to my knowledge it was the Senaki airbase. They were used to destroy the airbase, and aircraft on the ground.
Answer the question. What is the force structure Russia is switching to? Answer it, or admit your ignorance of the new force structure.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Black Sea Fleet Stays in Sevastopol ????
Black Sea Fleet to remain in Ukraine after 2017
Navy News — By RIA Novosti on May 15, 2009 (6 hours ago) at 1:55 am (6 hours ago)
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SEVASTOPOL/MOSCOW: Russia and Ukraine can reach an agreement on the Russian Black Sea Fleet retaining its main base in Crimea's Sevastopol even after 2017, the fleet's former commander said Wednesday.
The fleet uses a range of naval facilities in Ukraine's Crimea as part of a 1997 agreement, under which Ukraine agreed to lease the bases to Russia until 2017.
"Statements by some Ukrainian politicians on the need for the prompt withdrawal of the Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol are nothing more than political bravado," Adm. Igor Kasatonov, who is also an advisor to the chief of the Russian General Staff, said.
"The Black Sea Fleet is a stronghold of stability and security for two states - both Russia and Ukraine," he said. Kasatonov commanded the fleet in 1991-1992.
On Wednesday the fleet celebrates the 226th anniversary since its establishment.
Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko announced last summer that Ukraine would not extend the lease of the base in the Crimean city of Sevastopol beyond 2017, and urged Russia to start preparations for a withdrawal.
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This news as stated in Russian media and also this web site news sections, how reliable is this ???
From several so called regional political analysts 'pundits' in Russia or Euro zone..also point the divisions on Ukraines political's elites.
In Such that Yuschenko side is the only pro westren elites left in Ukraines..and with Timochenko more and more allingning herself and her side's with Pro Russian blocks..it's going take a little time before Yuschenko swept away..and so does the Pro Western Ukraines..
Off course the neo lib's and republicans in US (just like you can see in Fox Media)..will object this..and pushed more western support for Yuschenko..
Just wandering if this kind of reasoning has strong correlations with what acctually hapening in Ukraine..???
Black Sea Fleet to remain in Ukraine after 2017
Navy News — By RIA Novosti on May 15, 2009 (6 hours ago) at 1:55 am (6 hours ago)
(No Ratings Yet)
Loading ...
SEVASTOPOL/MOSCOW: Russia and Ukraine can reach an agreement on the Russian Black Sea Fleet retaining its main base in Crimea's Sevastopol even after 2017, the fleet's former commander said Wednesday.
The fleet uses a range of naval facilities in Ukraine's Crimea as part of a 1997 agreement, under which Ukraine agreed to lease the bases to Russia until 2017.
"Statements by some Ukrainian politicians on the need for the prompt withdrawal of the Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol are nothing more than political bravado," Adm. Igor Kasatonov, who is also an advisor to the chief of the Russian General Staff, said.
"The Black Sea Fleet is a stronghold of stability and security for two states - both Russia and Ukraine," he said. Kasatonov commanded the fleet in 1991-1992.
On Wednesday the fleet celebrates the 226th anniversary since its establishment.
Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko announced last summer that Ukraine would not extend the lease of the base in the Crimean city of Sevastopol beyond 2017, and urged Russia to start preparations for a withdrawal.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This news as stated in Russian media and also this web site news sections, how reliable is this ???
From several so called regional political analysts 'pundits' in Russia or Euro zone..also point the divisions on Ukraines political's elites.
In Such that Yuschenko side is the only pro westren elites left in Ukraines..and with Timochenko more and more allingning herself and her side's with Pro Russian blocks..it's going take a little time before Yuschenko swept away..and so does the Pro Western Ukraines..
Off course the neo lib's and republicans in US (just like you can see in Fox Media)..will object this..and pushed more western support for Yuschenko..
Just wandering if this kind of reasoning has strong correlations with what acctually hapening in Ukraine..???
You compare a freak one-off year with a recession year, then exaggerate the difference. Typical of your methodology.
This is amazing. Listen carefully: there is no connection between inflation rates of different currencies. Inflation rates depend on strength of currencies, money supply, etc. A smallish country with 3% annual inflation can be importing food from a much larger country with 20% monthly inflation, & be unaffected. Been there, seen it (Latin America & the UK in the 1980s). Why do you keep flaunting your ingorance of economics?
660cc cars are popular in Japan because of the Kei car regulations (they are very cheap, not only because they're cheap to build, but because the tax on them is very low), & because in Japanese towns both road space & parking space is scarce. Smooth, well-maintained, but narrow roads, limited parking space, short distances - a little cube car is very convenient, as long as you don't want to drive long distances - they're barred from motorways. One of my relatives never drove anything bigger until she was in her late 30s - but 3 of her motorbikes have bigger engines. :nutkick Also, public transport is excellent. It isn't cheap to take a train from Tokyo to a ski resort, for example, but it's very comfortable & convenient, & much quicker than driving. Why buy a car when you rarely use it? One thing I've noticed in Japan i how many cars, especially the bigger ones, are rarely used. Sarariman goes off to work by train, housewife takes the kids to school on foot or bike or maybe in her little Kei car, the pops out to the shops on her bike, or in the Kei car if she has a lot to buy - and the big car sits there. Or they're like my sister-in-law & her husband, with a combined income of well over $200K, who don't own a car, because they have no use for one. Railway station & shops 400 metres away, taxi for local journeys or when they have luggage, shinkansen or plane for holidays . . . life in a Tokyo suburb.
Inflation - I believe the figures, because I've seen it. I visit Japan regularly (did I mention my partner is Japanese?), & I've seen how prices have moved - or rather, how they haven't moved. Obviously, you know only what you've seen in press reports, or dreamed up yourself. Give up.
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Apologies, was a while back when I read the article, i'm terrible with remembering which is which on the the best of days.
So do you want to sell weopons at 1990s prices?. Get real. Wages, energy prices, materials and modernization of plants , retraining new workers all need money (since there is competition of skilled labor with private sector). Every thing will show up in end product price. or you want to magically make cheap weopons.
Crowds are protesting because Strong man Putin has the ability to say No. In US case any one start whinning gets bail out. every thing is elected from very small town mayor to governers to labor and trade and teacher Unions. in Russia most of them are selected. offcourse time will tell which system is suitable.
Equipment is key to logistics. and equipment has to cheap and rugged enough.
So your are agreeing at last there were no precision strike from Aircraft. aircrafts cannot hit moving targets in real time.
It will be hybrid structure. surely not small army of medium sized powers which are not suitable for independent military compaigns.
so in 2008 Japan was in recession? so what does it indicated. Russia entered into recession in 2009. It means medium size powers are too weak. they enter recession ahead of others and move out from recesion last. I dont believe Japan has $4 trillion economic. othrwise how on earth $400b exports can make 40% plunge in Industrial producton. Japan is basically a manufacturng nation. some thing does not add up.
Japan is not small country. 120 million high standard of living people.
Inflation consist of general basket of goods. with core and non core. Japan cannot decrease the price of imported goods and resources. Its currency closely follows dollar. so it means it decreased by 40% on euro basket.
A car gives a personal freedom to move around. If car culture has died in Japan. it means they have given up on most of things of consumptions. I dont expect them to buy Hummers like Moscovites. I dont expect Japanese to have any influence or power in world. They dont have any long term grand strategy like Russia. Who are creating more dependencies in EU and make Belarus/Ukraine less important.660cc cars are popular in Japan because of the Kei car regulations (they are very cheap, not only because they're cheap to build, but because the tax on them is very low), & because in Japanese towns both road space & parking space is scarce. Smooth, well-maintained, but narrow roads, limited parking space, short distances - a little cube car is very convenient, as long as you don't want to drive long distances - they're barred from motorways. One of my relatives never drove anything bigger until she was in her late 30s - but 3 of her motorbikes have bigger engines. :nutkick Also, public transport is excellent. It isn't cheap to take a train from Tokyo to a ski resort, for example, but it's very comfortable & convenient, & much quicker than driving. Why buy a car when you rarely use it? One thing I've noticed in Japan i how many cars, especially the bigger ones, are rarely used. Sarariman goes off to work by train, housewife takes the kids to school on foot or bike or maybe in her little Kei car, the pops out to the shops on her bike, or in the Kei car if she has a lot to buy - and the big car sits there. Or they're like my sister-in-law & her husband, with a combined income of well over $200K, who don't own a car, because they have no use for one. Railway station & shops 400 metres away, taxi for local journeys or when they have luggage, shinkansen or plane for holidays . . . life in a Tokyo suburb.
Prices hasnt moved but Japanese debt has increased constantly from year to year. why is that. I assume they have finished most of infrastructure.
what does it tell. It means they are subsidizing. I dont belive they are spending money on infrastucture in 21st century. they are using money for subsidizing goods for its population.
Bottom line Russia should not be compared to medium sized powers like Japan/France/UK/Germany. which has no influence outside there borders, militarily too weak & insignificant and have no strategy to become great again.
Don't know if you realize this, but Russia is a medium-sized power. It is not the superpower you imagine it to be.
If you don't believe Japan has a $4 trillion dollar economy, then Russia doesn't have a 2 trillion one.
Sounds like your argument has come down to 'I refuse to believe it because it proves me wrong'
It's barely worth bothering, the guy's delusional. He's like almost exactly like the typical communist you'd see played on TV. I'm still 50/50 on whether the guy is just some troll pretending to be something out of CoD 4.
Can someone just ban the guy already, this isn't constructive discussion anymore, and can't be with roberto spewing utter crap.
However:
If you were to rank those with the most influence outside their borders, how would you do it (reasons too please). It seems to me that both France and the UK can project military force much further from home than the Russians and Germany, Japan, the UK and France can do a more economically on a global scale than Russia can.
Oh no it doesn't! And it never has. Look at the rates. 85 to the dollar in 1995, 130 in 2002, 95 today . . . .
Japan has never had the car culture of, e.g., the USA, or even the UK. It's not "given up on" anything - and its car ownership per capita is still twice that of Russia, despite slow growth in recent years, an aging population, & all the other factors which make Japanese less likely to buy a car than, e.g. Australians of equal income.
Roberto, I don't know why you persist in flaunting your ignorance.
No problem. That's what we're all here for. In any event, I dare speculate that the reason for merging them all into the UAC is because largely only Sukhoi managed to actually come out successful (in Russian aerospace industry) after the 90's. There is a reason Mikhail Pogosyan is now director of RSK MiG (previous one was sacked following the Algerian debacle
). The current UAC is sort of a bailout for the other firms. A way to potentially correct their inefficiency, without sacrificing them entirely.Lol. I'm a communist. Roberto is not. If he was a communist, then his discussion of economics would rest on modes of production, and the relative historical stages that countries are in. To be honest I'm not sure what he is.
Russia doesn't have a 2 trillion dollar economy. Before the crisis I think it was something like 1.3 trillion.
The point is that initially we thought we could make weapons at a certain price. It turned out later that due to poor management, and poor price estimates, as well as the poor state of facilities we needed more money. This is not a sign of a successful weapons industry. It's a sign of an industry in crisis, and in need of major investment.
Time will tell. But meanwhile Russia is internally unstable, contrary to the US. Period. Your claim to the contrary was wrong.
It also has to perform well enough, be availabe in sufficient quantities, have the necessary support personell and infrastructure, and be well maintained and supported. This is something that we (Russia) lack.
I disagree with your attempt to claim that the use of the KAB-500 on the Senaki airbase is not an example of PGM strikes. I never said anything about hitting moving targets in real time.
That's not my question. My question is a very simple one. What formations, and of roughly what size, will the Russian Army and VVS be composed of after these reforms? You are more and more convincing me that you do not know the answer, and therefore are in no position to make any comments in regards to the development of the Russian military.
There is no such thing as beliefs in objective analysis.
Look at the data coming out for past two quarters. Japan used to export $60 to $65b per month before the crises
now it is in is in $35b to $45b range depending on exchange rate.
You can see 45% drop in creating 12.7 negative GDP.
Russia used to export $35 to $40b per month before the crises. Now it is around $20b per month.
50% decrese in exports casued 10% decrease in GDP. (only one quarter of decrease of such magnitude).
Look at the export numbers and its impact on overall GDP. Japan has much bigger sensitivity to exports with gap of only $20b a month or $240 billion in a year at most which are bigger share of Japanese GDP.
Moreover there is not that much input involve in Russians exports. while Japan has to import natural resources and energy from outside to create export product. So net figure is much lower. $1 of Russian export is not equal to $1 of Japanese export. I am not even going into creation of debt for running Japanese export machine. you dont need it for natural resources and pipeline monopolies.
Power measurement of countries is very complex issue. It is not measured based on Top 500 Universities which are burden on overall society anyway
to serve the privelage.
You essentailly agreed with me. when dollar was strong against Euro basket of countries. there were more Japanese yen in dollar. when Dollar becomes weak (current state) there are less Japanese Yen in dollar. What does it indicated.
Japan had a car culture. They were the second largest buyer market after US for past 50 years untill China surpassed them couple years back.
Soviet Union didnot had car culture on that scale but now Russia had car culture. so whose living standards are improving.
It has nothing to with weopons industry. When you have such high growth of GDP and export surpluses ( 2000-2008). Wages, material and inflation are bound to rise. It is not a 100% command economy.Weopon manufacturer has to compete for skilled labor and market priced.
Look at Western weopons. There prices also increased but they had far less GDP growth and negative wage growth in overall society.
Why do u think Russia is energy independent but US is not. US certainly dont lack resources. why there is no new refinery in US. think harder you will get the answer. I am not going in into corporates hands in glove with Chinese for shifting jobs/technology.. Basic point is you cannot run country based on external resources and not effected by there influences which are negative. There are other complex differeneces that are reflected in policies.
Internal stability is not measured by number of protests in a country.
It was Russian emergency minitry choppers that were lifting heavy cranes into mountaneous areas. Russia has unique advantage in medium to heavy choppers. Medium size powers cannot even afford there own choppers. You can see the Chinook import by UK.
My point is you dont need PGM to hit senaki base. PGM had no effect on outcome of war and they arent PGM strike (read the word Strike not weopon)
Reforms hasnt been done. But 1 million people fighting force will be available. Medium sized power cannot collect more than 100,000 fighting force from there societies before they collapse economically. They are on life support anyway.
It indicates the exact opposite of what you said. You said that the yen is linked to the dollar. You are now arguing the opposite. You are either a troll, Roberto, or you are incapable of simple arithmetic.
50 years? Don't be silly! 50 years ago Japan was nowhere near second, as either producer or buyer. Have a look at some statistics -
Motor Vehicle Production by Year Industry Statistics. JAMA
Motor Vehicle Sales by Year Industry Statistics. JAMA
1958 - 188,303 vehicles produced, of which 50,643 were passenger cars. Sales very similar. Canada & Australia had bigger car markets back then, & several European countries. Cars were a rare luxury for the well-off in 1950s Japan. Sales were lower in 1958 than in Germany, France or the UK 30 years earlier
You will notice that production has fallen slightly - but Japan is now the largest producer, while when production was at its peak, it was the second largest producer. Think about that. And also think about the fact that UK passenger car production is currently running at less than in 1977 - and I remember 1977, & can assure you that standards of living are much higher now than then.
Cut this silliness, & get back to the topic at hand.
Thanks for clearing that up.No problem. That's what we're all here for. In any event, I dare speculate that the reason for merging them all into the UAC is because largely only Sukhoi managed to actually come out successful (in Russian aerospace industry) after the 90's. There is a reason Mikhail Pogosyan is now director of RSK MiG (previous one was sacked following the Algerian debacle
Sorry I didn't mean communists, I like them, the idea is good, so's the economic theory, it's human nature that lets it down. I actually meant he comes off as a crazy ultra-nationalist who might try and bomb the US for revenge.
...That or a massive troll who needs to get rebanned.
Now lets look at something else that might have changed in Russia that has led to greater car ownership. How about access to the Western markets when the Soviet Union collapsed? Instead of having a choice of a few very poor cars, they suddenly had access to 100's of different cars, some good, some bad. That and capitalism has only really been kicking off in Russia for 15 years or so. That means that to compare Russian car ownership to Japanese car ownership is an invalid indicator of increased standards of living.
There are other reasons for a lack of new oil refineries in the US, one off the top of my head would be an increasing trend to turn away from oil and towards alternative fuels.
Actually, number of protests is generally a very good indicator of internal stability in a country. The fact that there are so few in the US, even when they can freely do so, unlike in some other countries, where only the most serious issues will lead to protests out of fear of punishment, seems to indicate very high internal stability. If you were to look at the failed states index, which ranks countries on stability, Russia is much more unstable than ANY Western country.
I can only assume you're talking about the Chinook procurement issue we had a while ago. That had nothing to do with being unable to field enough helicopters (We have more Chinooks than anyone outside the US), that was to do with an inept procurement that meant a lot more money was spent than was necessary in to get them when they were needed. And can you name some medium sized powers that can't afford choppers? The issue is that they are unwilling to deploy them at extra cost in the case of a few nations in Afghanistan, not a lack of capability.
Find one scrap of evidence to back that up. Go on, I dare you. Just because we choose to have a standing army of 100,000 doesn't mean we couldn't drastically increase numbers if necessary. Most armies are turning away from conscription for a reason too. The number of troops a country can gather doesn't account for that much anymore, it's how you use/equip/train them that matters. North Korea has a million man army, but I wouldn't put my money on them against 500,000 South Korean troops.
It has everything to do with the weapons industry. The reason for the price hikes is due to the inefficiency of the production facilities, the lack of skilled personell, and the need for immediate modernization of said facilities to even be able to complete the order. Look at Sevmash and the Gorshkov/Vikramaditiya disaster. If it was just regular inflation, then why was head of Sevmash sacked shortly following?
No. But radicalized anti-government militias with massive popular support are certainly a measure of (in)stability.
And? What's your point? How many new transport choppers did the MChS receive in the last 5 years? How many new transport choppers did the armed forces receive in the last 5 years? How many of the existing choppers are operational? How many of the pilots get enough training to be effective? Finally, quit overfocusing one single aspect of logistics. Logistics in regards to global force projection means being able to sustain deployments. How many bases do we have in other countries? How many port facilities do we have in other seas and oceans?
I'm Iskander strikes on Georgian troops don't qualify as PGMs either by your perverse logic.
Seriously. First you argue that no PGMs were used. I prove you wrong. Then you argue that the KAB-500 is not a PGM because of high scatter. I prove you wrong. Now you argue that it's not a PGM because it was used against fixed targets?Answer the question or admit ignorance of our future force structure. I'm waiting. And fyi the reforms aren't complete yet, but they are already in full swing.
Russia had great GDP growth based on two factors: one is that it fell dramatically during the 90s and it wasn't too difficult to see impressive figures with the right policies and second is that Russia profited enormously from the oil bubble in the mid-2000s. Russian weapons industries are highly inefficient, look at the whole fiasco with the Gorshkov.
The answer is that the US energy market and needs are enourmous, even if the US had the daily oil output (which is slightly bigger than US daily out output) of Russia it would still need to import oil to meet its needs.
European military hardware doesn't compete well against the US and can't afford to as the Pentagon, the biggest arms buyer in the world, buys the vast majority of its weapons from US companies.
Bullshit. 'Medium sized powers' can easily support a deployment of 100,000 if the need arises. Hell, the unemployment rates in EU countries can easily cover that. Russia however, will face economic collapse if they deploy a million man army. Plus, judging by the quality of Russian troops and leadership, I'd rather have 100K German or British troops than a million Russians.
We can't deploy a million men. We can't even deploy 100 000 for any significant period of time, without running into problems. The Georgian war saw deployment of ~4 divisions and multiple independent units (maybe 50000 in all) and we already saw major problems emerging in terms of air and ground coordination, tactical ISR assets, and high breakdown rates. Mind you the units deployed were some of the better ones.
The Georgian War also had ancient T-62's without out upgrades and almost unchanged from day it came out of the factory.
Are Russian ground units patchy as the Georgian war had a very wide variety of AFV
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