Russia to get SU-35 by 2011

[Crusader2000]

1) It has not been going on forever. The 2011 date has been named and has been stuck to.
2) You don't know that it has not been officially ordered. It's been pointed out repeatedly that our (Russian) government does not typically announce contracts signed for the delivery of military equipment. Occasionally they will confirm that deliveries are taking place or have taken place. Most often nothing at all is said, and only later on I find that certain units have received new equipment.

If, we have no official order. How has the 2011 date been named and stuck too! Also, while you say "I don't know if its been officially ordered". Neither, do yet you are making that every CLAIM! Which, you can't with FACT!:nutkick



You have nothing to rebutt. You have an opinion that's based on cursory (at best) knowledge of the Russian defence establishment. You also have a stubborn determination to ignore everything said to you. So... once again I politely ask that if you have nothing new to add, please refrain from making comments.

You have nothing to support your claim. That production will indeed start in 2011. The Russian Government has fail to order the Su-35 and no export orders have been forth coming............Just claims that it will be ordered. Which, does not make it FACT! Hell, Russia has claimed over and over the deal with India over the ex-Gorshokov will be resolved. As a matter of fact we've heard "promise" after "promise". Yet, just more hot air.........So, excuse me for not taking Russia at its word.nfloorl:

We all know what your opinion is. If you have nothing else to say....

Well, when you stop printing here say as fact. I'll stop expressing my opinion....

EDIT: Speak of the devil. The Mi-28N for which I also have seen no official contract has been delivered to the 487'th independent helicopter regiment. Allegedly 6 of them. A total of 47 (possibly typo, as 48 is standard regiment size) are planned for delivery. This seems to be in addition to the 4 in Torzhok.

http://lenta.ru/news/2009/04/21/chopper/

Note the pattern? No official contract. No specifics, only generalities about planned deliveries and (occasionally) confirmation of deliveries.

Sorry, that proves nothing...........As a matter of fact Russia needs to sell the Su-35 so badly. If, it really planned on ordering it. You can bet they would make the contract signing very public.


The true is the RuAF doesn't really want the aircraft. As it would rather wait on the PAK-FA. So, even if it would get the Su-35. It would be in small numbers just to help export the type..........Personally, I wouldn't be surprised. That Russian is hoping to give the impression that the Su-35 is on its way. So, that other nations will feel more comfortable in ordering it. Yet, that doesn't seem to be working...........

 

[Viktor]

Feanor ... unlike above boring guy I have no problems beliving Su-35BM will be ordered in numbers for RUAF ... the more because I dont expect PAK-FA entering any serious serial production until 2015 and as Russian rearmament plan starts to kick of as of 2010-2011 with this year being ordered mutch mutch more than any previos things will get interesting as for airforce so for every other branches of military ...

 

[Crusader2000]

Feanor ... unlike above boring guy I have no problems beliving Su-35BM will be ordered in numbers for RUAF ... the more because I dont expect PAK-FA entering any serious serial production until 2015 and as Russian rearmament plan starts to kick of as of 2010-2011 with this year being ordered mutch mutch more than any previos things will get interesting as for airforce so for every other branches of military ...

Your dreaming.................The RuAF has vast fleets of Flankers. Which, are planned to be upgraded. The Su-35 would offer little improvement in capabilities at great cost. Regardless, neither would provide a effective counter to the F-22 or F-35............In short the RuAF is waiting on the PAK-FA.


If, the RuAF would acquire the Su-35. It would be a small order just to spure exports of the type..............they don't want it!

 

[Viktor]

Your dreaming.................

I have that feeling too. I wasnt around this forum for about a year or so ... but since than I find you saying one and the same thing since the first time you got here ... yea it must be a dream ...

The RuAF has vast fleets of Flankers. Which, are planned to be upgraded.

Yes they have vast fleet of Su-25 but despite upgrades they are building new .
They have vast fleet of S-300 but despite upgrades building S-400
They have vast fleet of Su-24 but despite upgrades building Su-34

and so on and so on .....

The Su-35 would offer little improvement in capabilities at great cost.

Uh ....

Regardless, neither would provide a effective counter to the F-22 or F-35............In short the RuAF is waiting on the PAK-FA.

Well F-35 is not build for airsuperiority role anyway and F-22 production is stopet at redicilus small number.
But other than those two there are number of other threats that needs to be countered and multirole Su-35BM is ideal for it ...

You must be out of your mind if you think Russia will for 5-6 years produce 0 excellent multirole fighters for its own force ....
Even Putin was at one moment so pissed off because of zero production rate ....

They will not wait PAK-FA .. besides even when the production starts Russia will never completly replace MIG-29/35BM fleet with PAK-FA and Su-35BM/MIG-35 is sure thing to enter force and fly along side PAK-FA and that other light 5 generation fighter being developt by MiG

If, the RuAF would acquire the Su-35. It would be a small order just to spure exports of the type..............they don't want it!

Nope ... only economic situation can intefere to produce it in great numbers for its own airforce ...

 

[Haavarla]

Sorry, that proves nothing...........As a matter of fact Russia needs to sell the Su-35 so badly. If, it really planned on ordering it. You can bet they would make the contract signing very public.


The true is the RuAF doesn't really want the aircraft. As it would rather wait on the PAK-FA. So, even if it would get the Su-35. It would be in small numbers just to help export the type..........Personally, I wouldn't be surprised. That Russian is hoping to give the impression that the Su-35 is on its way. So, that other nations will feel more comfortable in ordering it. Yet, that doesn't seem to be working...........

So what you are claiming is that RuAF will wait untill 2017 before procuring any new fighters?

1.
Never mind that 190 Mig-29 are grounded untill further notice..
Have a peek:
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090206/120014354.html
Edit: How many Migs are cleared for service at this time, anyone?

And several of the Su-27 that was first built are out of service due to structure stress..
That leaves the whole jobb for the remaining Su-27 regiments.



2.
Only three Su-27 regiments are due to SM upgrades at this time, it is unclear if all Su-27 Reg will get the SM standard.
So whenever those three Reg are finnish they will be the spear of the RuAF in all air superority mission.


3.
That would leave the RuAF with 3-4 regiments of older Su-27 in questionable readyness. And Lets not forget those Mig-31 at the Far East whom hasn't been subject for any upgrades lately that i'm aware of.


4.
Russia is still a large country and the RuAF are clearly in need of some replacement units, and 2017 are a long way from today.


5.
I wonder what type units could be up for the task of reeinforce the RuAF untill we se 2017!



Need i go on?



Thanks a lot..

 

[Crusader2000]

No Mig-35's and few if any Su-35's......

I have that feeling too. I wasnt around this forum for about a year or so ... but since than I find you saying one and the same thing since the first time you got here ... yea it must be a dream ...


Because nothing has changed..........


Yes they have vast fleet of Su-25 but despite upgrades they are building new .
They have vast fleet of S-300 but despite upgrades building S-400
They have vast fleet of Su-24 but despite upgrades building Su-34

and so on and so on ..... PLEASE

Sorry, Russia has yet a place a large order for any aircraft.............Regardless, your examples have nothing to do with the Flanker.



Uh ....



Well F-35 is not build for airsuperiority role anyway and F-22 production is stopet at redicilus small number.
But other than those two there are number of other threats that needs to be countered and multirole Su-35BM is ideal for it ...

The F-35 is a Strike Fighter just like the F-16 and F/A-18..........Yet, both perform Air Superiority Missions. Nonetheless, the F-35 can easily take on any Flanker Model including the Su-35 Flanker-E.

You must be out of your mind if you think Russia will for 5-6 years produce 0 excellent multirole fighters for its own force ....
Even Putin was at one moment so pissed off because of zero production rate ....

Most of what it produced has been for export.............I don't see that changing. Really, Russia will be luckly to get the funds to upgrade old aircraft. Let alone purchase new ones!

They will not wait PAK-FA .. besides even when the production starts Russia will never completly replace MIG-29/35BM fleet with PAK-FA and Su-35BM/MIG-35 is sure thing to enter force and fly along side PAK-FA and that other light 5 generation fighter being developt by MiG

Sorry, the RuAF is not going to purchase the Mig-35 and even if the Su-35 is bought. It will be in small numbers.........Both of which are on the verge of becoming obsolete. Especially, with 5th Generation Fighters coming on line....



Nope ... only economic situation can intefere to produce it in great numbers for its own airforce ...

Well, Russia has cut its defense budget 15% this year. Which, says it all.........As it couldn't fund new fighters last year when it had more money!

 

[Feanor]

The defense budget cut has not affected the procurement budget. It has remained unchanged, and 1.3 trillion rubles annually over the 2009-2011 years. After that a new procurement budget will be drafted. Seriously. Before posting, get your facts straight.

Crusader I am not claiming that orders have definitevily been placed. I am claiming that we cannot wholly discount the possibility that orders have already been placed. It's more then likely that they will be placed eventually. And by the way Russia has already placed orders for serial production of aircraft including an order for 60 Yak-130, and iirc 18 Su-34.

Coincidentally if you think lack of funding is the main problem, you clearly don't understand the real issues behind our MICs inability to produce certain systems. The main problem is the degraded state of the production facilities, and lack of skilled personell.

Havaarla just wondering where you saw info on 3 regiments of SM Flankers? I know two were done, and both are now complete. I haven't heard anything about a third one.

 

[Haavarla]

The defense budget cut has not affected the procurement budget. It has remained unchanged, and 1.3 trillion rubles annually over the 2009-2011 years. After that a new procurement budget will be drafted. Seriously. Before posting, get your facts straight.

Crusader I am not claiming that orders have definitevily been placed. I am claiming that we cannot wholly discount the possibility that orders have already been placed. It's more then likely that they will be placed eventually. And by the way Russia has already placed orders for serial production of aircraft including an order for 60 Yak-130, and iirc 18 Su-34.

Coincidentally if you think lack of funding is the main problem, you clearly don't understand the real issues behind our MICs inability to produce certain systems. The main problem is the degraded state of the production facilities, and lack of skilled personell.

Havaarla just wondering where you saw info on 3 regiments of SM Flankers? I know two were done, and both are now complete. I haven't heard anything about a third one.

From this site:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-27sm.htm

"In addition to a contract for the production of the Superjet 100, a 3-year deal was signed with the Defense Ministry for repair and modernization of Su-27SM aircraft. The Russian Air Force initially planned to equip one regiment with modernized Su-27 warplanes in 2004, and 20 planes of the type were sent to the factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur for modernization during the year. On 23 November 2004 JSC “Sukhoi Company”, JSC Sukhoi Design Bureau, and JSC KNAAPO got past the successive point of the aircraft production maturity by transferring the first production-run modernized Su-27SM aircraft to the Air Force of the Russian Federation.

On 29 November 2006 a contract was prepared for the upgrade at KnAAPO of another twenty-four Su-27 fighters to the Su-27SM configuration, according to a statement by Mikhail Pogosyan, Sukhoi Director-General. "This year we have supplied the Russian AF with six upgraded Su-27SM fighters, thus completing a three-year contract for upgrading another twenty-four Su-27 aircraft to the Su-27SM configuration," M.Pogosian said. According to him, this was the first such massive modernization of combat aircraft under the Russian Air Force’s order in recent years.
By 2007 Russian jet engine maker Salut had spent $40 million on developing the AL-31FM1 engine for Su-27, Su-30, Su-33 and other Sukhoi aircraft and successfully completed its tests in October 2006. The modernized version of the famed AL-31F engine features improved thrust characteristics, a 15% increase in combat effectiveness and cycle life, and reduced maintenance costs. The AL-31FM1 will be initially installed on Su-27SM Flanker fighters in service with the Russian Air Force, but it also has a high export potential, a company official said."

Edit: Have any of the SM those upgraded AL-31FM1 engines today?


I counted 20 in 2004
24 in Nov2006
24 in 2007


I know Global security from time to time mess up things..
Is this incorrect Feanor?

Do you know where those SM's are stationed?

Isn't the RuAF going to cut a vast nummbers of staff and reorganize?
I imagine that will free some funding and fasing out some old equipment, hens the 15% cut.


I found this on Global:
"In February 12, 2005, the commander-in-chief of the Russian AF, General of the Army Vladimir Mikhailov, personally inspected the last stage of state acceptance tests of the Yak-130. This took place at the production plant's factory airfield at Nizhnyi Novgorod, where the General also made a familiarization flight with the jet. According to Mikhailov, "the aircraft includes so many new ideas that, for a long time, it will be second to none". In 2006, the first series aircraft will be delivered to the Russian AF combat training center 4th CBPiPLS at Lipietsk, followed by allocations to the pilot training school at Krasnodar.

Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov announced in early March 2005, that the Russian Armed Forces woudl begin to purchase the Yak-130 aircraft in 2005. As of mid-June 2006, Russian Air Force officials had said they were considering purchasing 250 new Yak-130 aircraft. In 2005 it was reported that the total number of Yak-130s that will be purchased by the Russian air arms until 2015 was estimated at 150-200 machines. Other sources suggest a more plausible objective of some 60 aircraft"

Do you have anything more on those 18 Su-34?



Thanks

 

[Feanor]

The 60 Yak-130 aircraft is what has been signed up to this point. I'll try to find you the arms-tass article. The total that will be purchased is a whole other question.

It might a mix up. I recall MDB mentioning that the 2007 year included 6-12 SM upgrades in the budget. That would make sense, as the contract completed in fall 2008. If the previous modernization was a 3-year effort, that ended in 2006, then the previous (first) Su-27SM Flanker regiment must have been modernized by 2003-2004. That doesn't seem likely. I suspect that there is a mix up.

Aha. Found it. There were no Su-27SM delivered before 2004. The first 5 were delivered in 2004. Sukhoi website. It's in Russian, sorry.

http://www.sukhoi.org/news/company/?id=187

In 2006 the first regiment completed their Su-27SM transition. (23rd IAP)

http://www.gspo.ru/lofiversion/index.php/t2508.html

From what I understand the second regiment was completed in 2008. That makes sense both timeswise and budget wise.

EDIT: Su-34 contract.

The first Su-34s have been handed over to the Russian Air Force this month [December 2006]. By 2010, under a three-year government contract, will build and supply the Russian Air Force with 18 Su-34s.

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/news/company/?id=1056

 

[Haavarla]

Well, Russia has cut its defense budget 15% this year. Which, says it all.........As it couldn't fund new fighters last year when it had more money!

That cut is related to staff cutdown and reorganized structure command in the whole millitary, The RuAF foremost..

And they will melt down a bunch of old equipment that cost a lot of money to operate.
Hense the 15% cutback.
It has no effect on the procurment budget, beacause it is closed of from cuts and have even gain some funding the last 2 year.


"The F-35 is a Strike Fighter just like the F-16 and F/A-18..........Yet, both perform Air Superiority Missions. Nonetheless, the F-35 can easily take on any Flanker Model including the Su-35 Flanker-E."

I'm not gonna comment on that LM vs Suhkoi claim...

 

[Crusader2000]

The defense budget cut has not affected the procurement budget. It has remained unchanged, and 1.3 trillion rubles annually over the 2009-2011 years. After that a new procurement budget will be drafted. Seriously. Before posting, get your facts straight.

Crusader I am not claiming that orders have definitevily been placed. I am claiming that we cannot wholly discount the possibility that orders have already been placed. It's more then likely that they will be placed eventually. And by the way Russia has already placed orders for serial production of aircraft including an order for 60 Yak-130, and iirc 18 Su-34.

Coincidentally if you think lack of funding is the main problem, you clearly don't understand the real issues behind our MICs inability to produce certain systems. The main problem is the degraded state of the production facilities, and lack of skilled personell.

Havaarla just wondering where you saw info on 3 regiments of SM Flankers? I know two were done, and both are now complete. I haven't heard anything about a third one.

Well, I am not claiming that its not possible that Russia secretly ordered Su-35's. Yet, to be honest why would Russia do such a thing? Clearly, they need and want to export the Su-35. So, they would want to be as public as possible.:unknown

My point is simple.......

1.) As of today the Su-35 has not been ordered......

2.) It will likely be ordered but only in small numbers to help generate export sales.....

3.) The RuAF doesn't really want the aircraft. As upgraded Su-27's can do the job.

4.) The RuAF really is waiting on the PAK-FA............anything else is a waste of resources.

 

[Viktor]

1.) As of today the Su-35 has not been ordered......

Perhaps not and perhaps yes ... Russia has about 30 bin in weapon orders .. you can only imagine what could that be??

2.) It will likely be ordered but only in small numbers to help generate export sales.....

Dont agree ... it will be big orders.

3.) The RuAF doesn't really want the aircraft. As upgraded Su-27's can do the job.

Nukes alone can do the job ...

4.) The RuAF really is waiting on the PAK-FA............anything else is a waste of resources.

I agree .. but can you imagine a Russia producing nothing for its own airforce just siting there and waiting 6 -10 years doing nothing until PAK-FA starts poping up in any serious numbers ...
RUAF will not consist of only PAK-FA for any time son .. you can surely expect Su-35BM and MIG-35 ...

 

[Feanor]

Well, I am not claiming that its not possible that Russia secretly ordered Su-35's. Yet, to be honest why would Russia do such a thing? Clearly, they need and want to export the Su-35. So, they would want to be as public as possible.:unknown

They want to export anything and everything they can. T-90A for example. But the orders for it that have been placed, are currently out of the spotlight.

My point is simple.......

1.) As of today the Su-35 has not been ordered......

2.) It will likely be ordered but only in small numbers to help generate export sales.....

I.e. 2-3 regiments. Yes.

3.) The RuAF doesn't really want the aircraft. As upgraded Su-27's can do the job.

Airframe life is hitting it's limits. There are also airframe differences between the two aircraft. I'm not sure it's even possible to mount the Irbis on the current airframe.

4.) The RuAF really is waiting on the PAK-FA............anything else is a waste of resources.

The PAK-FA is a big ?. Especially in terms of delivery dates. We can expect squadron service no earlier then 2017, possibly as late as 2020. And that's IF the current schedule is kept up. The Su-35BM can be in squadron service by 2013.

Hence why I believe that the 2-3 regiments will be ordered, unless the current defense budget is shrunk majorly.

 

[Crusader2000]

Perhaps not and perhaps yes ... Russia has about 30 bin in weapon orders .. you can only imagine what could that be??

Russia has no reason to keep a Su-35 Secret and every reason to make it public........


Dont agree ... it will be big orders.

Extremely, unlikely.................

1.) Little Money.
2.) Already has large Fleet of Flankers.
3.) Would prefer PAK-FA's

Nukes alone can do the job ...

Why have a Air Force then.........


I agree .. but can you imagine a Russia producing nothing for its own airforce just siting there and waiting 6 -10 years doing nothing until PAK-FA starts poping up in any serious numbers ...
RUAF will not consist of only PAK-FA for any time son .. you can surely expect Su-35BM and MIG-35 ...

First, I have seen nothing to suggest that Russia is even interested in purchasing large numbers of Su-35 let alone "Mig-35's". So, just take the latter off the table. Also, like I said Russia currently has a large fleet of Flankers already. Which, if upgraded could handle anything bar the Raptor or the Lightning. (i.e. when it becomes available). So, please tell me what's the point of the Su-35??? While, it mite be a little better than a upgraded Su-27SM. It will still be totally outclassed by the US 5th Generation Fighters!


In short................like I said.

1.) "Maybe" a handful of Su-35's to help export the type.......

2.) NO MIG-35's........

3.) Upgraded older Flankers as a stop-gap until the PAK-FA comes on line....

 

[Crusader2000]

They want to export anything and everything they can. T-90A for example. But the orders for it that have been placed, are currently out of the spotlight.


Apples and Oranges.........



I.e. 2-3 regiments. Yes.


Sorry, you have no proof of that! With less reason to believe Russia would keep in a Secret!



Airframe life is hitting it's limits. There are also airframe differences between the two aircraft. I'm not sure it's even possible to mount the Irbis on the current airframe.

Russia still has large numbers of Flankers available with plenty of hour left on there airframes. As for the Irbis I am sure it could be easily adapted.....not like the Su-27 Radome isn't big enough!


The PAK-FA is a big ?. Especially in terms of delivery dates. We can expect squadron service no earlier then 2017, possibly as late as 2020. And that's IF the current schedule is kept up. The Su-35BM can be in squadron service by 2013.

The upgraded Flanker can be in service much eariler and still last past 2020....Also, Russia could afford to upgrade very large numbers of Su-27's for the price of a small number of new Su-35's. The latter would be a very expensive stop gap..........:unknown

Hence why I believe that the 2-3 regiments will be ordered, unless the current defense budget is shrunk majorly.

Isn't a regiment about the size of a US Air Wing? If, so I think you are being "way" to optimistic........IMO

 

[Feanor]

Apples and Oranges.........

Hardly. Two weapon systems. Both hypothetically being purchased for domestic forces and aggressively promoted in export. Neither is in the media spotlight. Domestic contracts for them are kept under the rug.

Sorry, you have no proof of that! With less reason to believe Russia would keep in a Secret!

Zelin's statement.

Russia still has large numbers of Flankers available with plenty of hour left on there airframes. As for the Irbis I am sure it could be easily adapted.....not like the Su-27 Radome isn't big enough!

There are currently no plans for upgrading the existing Flanker fleet past the SM standard.

The upgraded Flanker can be in service much eariler and still last past 2020....Also, Russia could afford to upgrade very large numbers of Su-27's for the price of a small number of new Su-35's. The latter would be a very expensive stop gap..........

The current Flanker airframes are nearing the end of their lifespan. Fulcrums, which were produced around the same time period, are already experiencing problems.

Isn't a regiment about the size of a US Air Wing? If, so I think you are being "way" to optimistic........IMO

A regiment is 24 airframes. Two squadrons of 12. So 2-3 regiments is 48-72 planes. Hardly all that optimistic.

 

[Crusader2000]

Hardly. Two weapon systems. Both hypothetically being purchased for domestic forces and aggressively promoted in export. Neither is in the media spotlight. Domestic contracts for them are kept under the rug.

Still doesn't change the fact that Russia has absolutely no reason to keep the order of Su-35's Secret................


Zelin's statement.

Only firms contracts are of value............Russian Officals make statements all the time........Like the ex-Gorshkov Deal with India is going to be resolved anytime now!



There are currently no plans for upgrading the existing Flanker fleet past the SM standard.

Maybe they ordered them secretly..........sounds familar?



The current Flanker airframes are nearing the end of their lifespan. Fulcrums, which were produced around the same time period, are already experiencing problems.

I sincerely doubt that..........as production didn't even start until the 1980's and went on for many many years. Further, after the end of the Cold War and the Break-Up of the USSR. Russia hardly had to funds to fly most of them.........plenty of hours left!



A regiment is 24 airframes. Two squadrons of 12. So 2-3 regiments is 48-72 planes. Hardly all that optimistic.

Well, I did say small numbers................I would consider ~48-72 as small.

 

[Feanor]

So in other words we agree. They are likely to be ordered in small numbers (your own words) of 2-3 regiments. That is exactly what Zelin (head of the VVS) said.

This entire lengthy debate could have been avoided if you had bothered to do your research beforehand.

Fyi there are currently only 7 regiments of Flankers in the entire VVS. So these small numbers would replace about a third of the Flankers in service with the Su-35BM. I personally suspect that a third regiment of current in service birds is being upgraded to the SM standard, and it just hasn't been announced publicly. (it's also possible that I missed the announcement) An upgrade started right now would be due to complete the regiment around the 2011 timeframe. It would make sense, as the procurement budget has only increased, and the production lines are available.

 

[Crusader2000]

So in other words we agree. They are likely to be ordered in small numbers (your own words) of 2-3 regiments. That is exactly what Zelin (head of the VVS) said.

This entire lengthy debate could have been avoided if you had bothered to do your research beforehand.

Fyi there are currently only 7 regiments of Flankers in the entire VVS. So these small numbers would replace about a third of the Flankers in service with the Su-35BM. I personally suspect that a third regiment of current in service birds is being upgraded to the SM standard, and it just hasn't been announced publicly. (it's also possible that I missed the announcement) An upgrade started right now would be due to complete the regiment around the 2011 timeframe. It would make sense, as the procurement budget has only increased, and the production lines are available.

The whole debate could have been avoid............If, some members of the forum didn't take "likely" as fact! Sorry, I am not the one that needs to do a little research!nfloorl:


FACT: The Su-35 "has not been order"!
THEORY: It "maybe" order in the future and only in small numbers......

Nothing, I have stated is incorrect or not factual............

 

[Feanor]

I did not state it as fact. Don't put words in my mouth. At any given point my argument was that there is currently not enough information to definitely state that the Su-35BM will not be ordered, which was what you initially claimed.

Further more it's quite likely that it will be ordered, in the quantities mentioned officially.