Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[dragonfire]

After the IN has formaly denied these reports and we still havent seen an official version yet from the PLAN; apart from which there are anomalies like the sub actualy surfacing and the part about disrupting sonar to give away position/presence; am inclined to doubt if such an incident ever happened, although like they say there cant be smoke without fire

But on a serious note does any one know how this so called 'buzzing' happens, beacuse i feel like Todjaeger said tht India would have tried to do some activity to accumlate data on the electronic signatures of the chinese assets

 

[dragonfire]

the place is starting to get populated - so I would be very very surprised if the IN does not have a philosophy to start seeding. after all, some very significant issues were raised post Tsunami

Pls elaborate for non techies like me wht seeding means, and wht r the issues raised post the tsunami you are referring to

tnks


sorry for the double post - i keep getting logged out every like 60 secs or something :lul

 

[funtz]

honestly, the writer just sounds like he has no clue what he is talking about. I'm sure something happened, but only the people on the ships would know exactly what that is.

The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.

The way the writer states his source, the patrol and surveillance aircrafts would have followed the ships and collected what ever data they could along with the surface and subsurface ships as was expected of them.
Nothing too fancy in that.

Project 636? (PLAN kilos i.e.), did any news article about the club missile systems performance on the PLAN submarine come out recently?

 

[Iam]

The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.

That's like saying my AK-47 is better than yours, cause it's got a butt stock

I would put my money on sensors, crew experience ( training ), and battle awareness any situation.

Given that no crew with knowledge and experience is ever going to comment, leave alone the capabilities, our knowledge is redundant.

We may also consider the points of tension in the Indian ocean which is one of the biggest shipping lanes. (the oil tankers aint that quiet)

 

[Type59]

The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.

More advantage to the Chinese then. I know China operates two variants of Kilo's, thus they have first hand knowledge on the general capabilities of all Kilo's.

Indian navy submarine fleet is not in good shape. Many articles stating how long domestic retrofits are taking much longer (5 years plus for SundiKurti). Plus most of hulls are origionally made in 80s.

 

[dipgroy]

So the topic turns from IN AC to so-called indo-china conflict..... may be interesting and worthy to discuss but I am more interested to know about the esscort and other helping-hands efforts which are taken/under consideration to make an AC more effective ........ plz some one put some light on that as alone an AC is somewhat uneffective by all mean.

 

[dragonfire]

So the topic turns from IN AC to so-called indo-china conflict..... may be interesting and worthy to discuss but I am more interested to know about the esscort and other helping-hands efforts which are taken/under consideration to make an AC more effective ........ plz some one put some light on that as alone an AC is somewhat uneffective by all mean.

The topic still remains the same its just tht the Indian Navy thread has been closed for some time and this thread was discussin related topic, i have requested the moderators to unlock the other thread - still waiting though

And its not at all discusising an Indo China conflict at all, it merely discussing news reports concerning either navies alleged confrontation.

As far as i Know although India has fielded two carriers before there werent any announced carrier groups as such, am assuming the mission role dictated the compliment as such, the typical compliment of vessels accompanying the carrier could be

ASW assets
Guided Missile destroyers
Missile frigates

I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant

 

[dipgroy]

I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant

Yes it true but again you cant ignore the time line and geographycal (Read geo-polytical also) situation of the counter part. Even the threat came in form of "Ghazi" which destroyed by the INS Rajput as pre planed. That shows how much support needed to make a safe passage for an AC. The situation became much more worse nowdays. You must not forget an AC is not only a high-cost ,moral booster its also a strategic stronghold on the water which available in a very few number, thus a obvius prime terget for the opponents.

In my personal oppinion their must be a scouting viz attacking sub to secure the path. so if 3 Ac deployed it means 3 more Sub also needed along with several other assets. After all you just dont want to send your war-marshal in the battelfield without other soldiers no matter how much skillful he is, even if he is the worlds strongest.

 

[tphuang]

That's like saying my AK-47 is better than yours, cause it's got a butt stock

I would put my money on sensors, crew experience ( training ), and battle awareness any situation.

Given that no crew with knowledge and experience is ever going to comment, leave alone the capabilities, our knowledge is redundant.

We may also consider the points of tension in the Indian ocean which is one of the biggest shipping lanes. (the oil tankers aint that quiet)

you may want to check up on the version of kilo each country got. Btw, Chinese kilos have also went through extensive works in Chinese shipyards afterward to upgrade sensors and such. If you ever seen one of the pictures of the command center for Indian kilo, you'd see how archaic it is. I can't comment on crew training, since nobody knows what it is for both countries.

Project 636? (PLAN kilos i.e.), did any news article about the club missile systems performance on the PLAN submarine come out recently?

I think things are a little better now. They finally did test launches last year for the first time, I think the results were satisfactory.

 

[Type59]

The topic still remains the same its just tht the Indian Navy thread has been closed for some time and this thread was discussin related topic, i have requested the moderators to unlock the other thread - still waiting though

And its not at all discusising an Indo China conflict at all, it merely discussing news reports concerning either navies alleged confrontation.

As far as i Know although India has fielded two carriers before there werent any announced carrier groups as such, am assuming the mission role dictated the compliment as such, the typical compliment of vessels accompanying the carrier could be

ASW assets
Guided Missile destroyers
Missile frigates

I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant

Was India fighting a modern military in East Pakistan? I am right to assume Pakistan is not a major world power especially in the 1970s.

 

[Salty Dog]

the typical compliment of vessels accompanying the carrier could be

ASW assets
Guided Missile destroyers
Missile frigates

Don´t forget the AO (replenishment tanker) that accompanies the carrier force. Those ships can't cruise around forever without refueling. Along with the carrier, the AO is another unit to be protected by the screening escorts.

 

[funtz]

So the topic turns from IN AC to so-called indo-china conflict..... may be interesting and worthy to discuss but I am more interested to know about the esscort and other helping-hands efforts which are taken/under consideration to make an AC more effective ........ plz some one put some light on that as alone an AC is somewhat uneffective by all mean.

The timeline for the 3 carriers in service is 2020-22.

the developments by that time is supposed to be
- 3 project 15A destroyers, 4 project 15B destroyers
- 7 project 17A frigates, 3 project 17 frigates, 3 modified talvar class frigates.
- 12 ASW corvettes, Project 28 and its modifications
- 9 OPV's
- 3-4 LPD's
- 8 MCMV ships
- 2 new tankers.
- 6 submarines from Project 75 (scorpene submarine line 2012-2017).
- 6 submarines from Project 75I (the follow up submarine line around 2017-2022).
- 5 submarines from the ATV project (nuclear submarine project).

I doubt if a AC by itself is as uneffective as u may be assuming, in fact it was very useful in effecting a naval blocade of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in '71 and the harriers decimated many targets in the coastal regions after being deployed of the carrier INS Vikrant

Hawker Sea Hawks not harriers.

Lovely planes.

Was India fighting a modern military in East Pakistan? I am right to assume Pakistan is not a major world power especially in the 1970s.

Irrespective of that the Vikrant carrier still played a role in the conflict, threat scenarios are different for different nations, its not sane nor human to fight a war for the sake of fighting it, with any nation, world power or not.

 

[Iam]

you may want to check up on the version of kilo each country got. Btw, Chinese kilos have also went through extensive works in Chinese shipyards afterward to upgrade sensors and such. If you ever seen one of the pictures of the command center for Indian kilo, you'd see how archaic it is.

As if any Navy would give you actual pictures of the command center !!!

The Indian Kilos are the older versions which were literally inducted with hand down prices, but have recently ( or undergoing ) upgrades in Russia. They may still have antiquated prop's.

As we can see IN from recent years opted for western assets eg. scorpenes, even though the newer version kilos were available. The second line of subs ( which may take some time ) may very well be a German one.

 

[funtz]

As if any Navy would give you actual pictures of the command center !!!

The Indian Kilos are the older versions which were literally inducted with hand down prices, but have recently ( or undergoing ) upgrades in Russia. They may still have antiquated prop's.

As we can see IN from recent years opted for western assets eg. scorpenes, even though the newer version kilos were available. The second line of subs ( which may take some time ) may very well be a German one.

old pics
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kilo1.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kilo7.jpg

not much available online about the upgrade outside of BR

The mid-life refit involves a complete overhaul of the submarine, including its hull structure.



An upgrade package is also part of this extensive refit, which has been designed by [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Zvyozdochka[/FONT]'s Onega Research & Development Technological Bureau and costs roughly US $80 million.



The refit sees the submarines being installed with the Klub-S ASCM (a maximum of five missiles can be carried) and the associated Lama-ER control system, new sonars (probably the MGK-400EM), electronic warfare systems, new control systems from Avrora such as the Palladij-M machinery control system and the AICS (Automated Information & Control system) integrated weapon control system. These boats are likely being updated to a Type 636 standard.

The submarine has also been fitted with a Panchendriya package, which includes an Indian sonar (USHUS) developed by NPOL (Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory) of the Indian Navy and by BEL (Bharat Electronics Limited) and a fire control system developed by the WEESE (Weapons Engineering & Electronics System Engineering) unit of the Indian Navy and BEL.


The remaining submarines due for their mid-life refits, are to be fitted with this new indigenous Panchendriya package. The USHUS sonar reportedly offers superior performance over similar Russian models.

Other than this not much information is available online.

 

[tphuang]

As if any Navy would give you actual pictures of the command center !!!

The Indian Kilos are the older versions which were literally inducted with hand down prices, but have recently ( or undergoing ) upgrades in Russia. They may still have antiquated prop's.

As we can see IN from recent years opted for western assets eg. scorpenes, even though the newer version kilos were available. The second line of subs ( which may take some time ) may very well be a German one.

as shown with funtz's pictures. The major upgrade is really to allow it to fire the overrated Club missile, outside of that, I'm not sure what they really did. Of course now, Scorpene subs would be more advanced, but they are not in service yet.

The timeline for the 3 carriers in service is 2020-22.

the developments by that time is supposed to be
- 3 project 15A destroyers, 4 project 15B destroyers
- 7 project 17A frigates, 3 project 17 frigates, 3 modified talvar class frigates.
- 12 ASW corvettes, Project 28 and its modifications
- 9 OPV's
- 3-4 LPD's
- 8 MCMV ships
- 2 new tankers.
- 6 submarines from Project 75 (scorpene submarine line 2012-2017).
- 6 submarines from Project 75I (the follow up submarine line around 2017-2022).
- 5 submarines from the ATV project (nuclear submarine project).

There is no question that's a very impressive force if things are built on schedule. In the case of ATV, I'm a little confused. It sounds like ATV is going to be a SSBN, which is fine. But don't you want some SSN to protect it? What's the point of protecting 5 SSBNs with a bunch of diesel submarines and possibly 2 SSNs?

 

[dragonfire]

Don´t forget the AO (replenishment tanker) that accompanies the carrier force. Those ships can't cruise around forever without refueling. Along with the carrier, the AO is another unit to be protected by the screening escorts.

Yes thanks SD for tht, support components should also be there for any carrier group, I have requested this forum in the past to suggest (none did) wht kind of vessels should india deploy as a carrier group along with the ACs - would you suggest

Hawker Sea Hawks not harriers.

Yeah sorry - Vikrant had Hawks and Viraat has Harriers

There is no question that's a very impressive force if things are built on schedule. In the case of ATV, I'm a little confused. It sounds like ATV is going to be a SSBN, which is fine. But don't you want some SSN to protect it? What's the point of protecting 5 SSBNs with a bunch of diesel submarines and possibly 2 SSNs?

Tell me about it, however the second strike capability is the most crucial one which India needs as a declared no - first use nuc power, and tht is where if a choice was there btw an SSBN and an SSN; India would have choosen to develop a SSBN first

However I hope India develops/proccures SSNs as well as SSGN apart from more SSBN. Man I wish India got some good capabilitites like a DDS enabled sub and/or something like the ASDS which the US has, but most imp India needs to develop more effective SLBMs which is shorter and has more range than the Sagarika, also a longer range Brahmos (sub launched version) would be a good choice for a future SSGN, also Photonics masts for all its new subs

Aside - why does a SSBN need other vessels to protect it, it has its own torpedos right ?

oh and India definetely needs longer subs (all pics of the insides of Indian subs i have seen so far look majorly cramped for space)

 

[funtz]

There is no question that's a very impressive force if things are built on schedule. In the case of ATV, I'm a little confused. It sounds like ATV is going to be a SSBN, which is fine. But don't you want some SSN to protect it? What's the point of protecting 5 SSBNs with a bunch of diesel submarines and possibly 2 SSNs?

Was stating the programs which are planned along with the IAC program for the poster dipgroy.

Funds for increasing capacity of the various shipyards are a part of the different projects, i think the costs of the projects will show these funds. The government is encouraging private firms to enter the field, and the response has been positive.

Still i do not think its easy to avoid delays as many of the parts are procured from foriegn sources and a single delay anywhere in the chain translates into the whole program and the ones that have to follow being delayed, it keeps on adding up.

The possible two SSNs do not look like coming online anytime soon, so it is what it is, from what is available online the SSBNs are not like the 5 nuclear powers. (The india today report posted the SSBNs as being capable of carrying 12 700km missiles that were tested sometime back (sagarika) or 4 5000+km missiles (agni missile).

The nuclear boats will themselves take a lot of time, the boat has to undergo the trails (which i suppose for something so complex as a nuclear submarine will not be easy) and then the subsequent submarines have to be produced allowing for any modifications that might be required.

Not much information is available about the program.

 

[Transient]

Aside - why does a SSBN need other vessels to protect it, it has its own torpedos right ?

From what I know, only if the SSBN is noisy enough that it requires protection. In that case a bastion strategy is used whereby SSNs would be used to sanitise an area and keep it sanitised for the SSBN to operate safely. The western submarines didn't need escorts.

 

[kato]

The western submarines didn't need escorts.

Ummm, no. They do. In vast amounts. The Groupe d'Action Sousmarine, whose primary purpose was to protect the Force Oceanique Strategique, contained about a third of the French Fleet as an example. Full 3D spectrum sanitization.

 

[Transient]

Ummm, no. They do. In vast amounts. The Groupe d'Action Sousmarine, whose primary purpose was to protect the Force Oceanique Strategique, contained about a third of the French Fleet as an example. Full 3D spectrum sanitization.

Ok, west minus the french then. But I certainly haven't heard of the US or the UK requiring escorts for their SSBNs. Have you heard of anything on this? Maybe gf-aust can provide someinput?