Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Wooki]

The IN stated doctrine is to be a Blue Water Navy and for this purpose it's philosophy has been that of long range missions - it has in the last 5 yrs made so many port calls (am not even including the sailing ship which visited about 80 countries - i think - in its circumnavigation trip) and displayed its flag - these goodwill missions are also to display the INs prowess. During the the Tsunami the Indian Navy was the first navy to reach Indonesia with relief supplies (5450 kms) The IN is now near Somalian waters (approx 3200 kms) India has a listening post in madagascar (about 5500 KMs). India needs a navy which can dominate the Indian Ocean as the primary naval power. It will also need access to the gulf of aden and the gulf of oman as well as the persian gulf as this area is of vital economic and security concerns to India (tens of millions of Indians work and send home much valued forex - foriegn remittances are actualy India's largest source of forex - even bigger than IT and ITES industry, also India has large investments in oil exploration and releated areas)

Just quietly, I'm not so sure carriers are the way to go about (to paraphrase) "dominating the Indian Ocean".

The Indian Ocean is a big place, with very few land masses and/or population centers within it. This creates very few SLOCs, 1 with heavy traffic density, 1 medium density and 4 lightly traveled.

Therefore the Indian Ocean can be "dominated" by a reasonably decent recon and survelliance operation with assets (submarines are a good example) to act upon the information.

If you were to use carriers to do same (as above) then 2 groups would be required to provide influence over the densely travelled SLOC (East and West) and they would have little to no impact upon the other SLOCs (although Indian Ballistic Missile tests have an irritating habit of disrupting some of the others with falling debris).

Seems like the IN already have a reasonable idea of what they want to do and how to do it.

my 2c

cheers

w

 

[dragonfire]

Therefore the Indian Ocean can be "dominated" by a reasonably decent recon and survelliance operation with assets (submarines are a good example) to act upon the information.

I too believe tht subs would be the ideal platform for patrols in the straits of Malacca (am assuming thts the SLOC u meant having the highest traffic). India needs long range nuc-attack subs for tht, pl refer to the thread below regarding the same

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8604&goto=newpost

If you were to use carriers to do same (as above) then 2 groups would be required to provide influence over the densely travelled SLOC (East and West) and they would have little to no impact upon the other SLOCs

Precisely why i think India needs 4 carrier groups with one in rotation while the other SLOCs can be monitored by the subs and long range marine recon planes (India just signed a deal for 8 P-81 with the US)

(although Indian Ballistic Missile tests have an irritating habit of disrupting some of the others with falling debris).

Am surprised that Indian tests disprut traffic, the primary Indian test site is chandipur in orissa on the Bay of bengal, but i guess with the IGMDP coming to maturity (except perhaps the rumoured Surya ICBM) and the recent procurement of a new test site by the DRDO it looks like this will gradualy phase out - till India plans out a big cruise missile program (long range unlike brahmos )

 

[swerve]

I too believe tht subs would be the ideal platform for patrols in the straits of Malacca (am assuming thts the SLOC u meant having the highest traffic). India needs long range nuc-attack subs for tht, pl refer to the thread below regarding the same

A few problems with that idea. Firstly, the Malacca Straits are shallow, with the deep channel in some parts being no more than 25 metres deep. Very poor water for nuclear attack subs. Secondly, they're very congested. And third, they're mostly territorial waters of the littoral states.

BTW, what would you envisage nuclear attack subs doing in such waters? I don't see a role they could perform there that couldn't be done better by cheaper assets.

 

[dragonfire]

A few problems with that idea. Firstly, the Malacca Straits are shallow, with the deep channel in some parts being no more than 25 metres deep. Very poor water for nuclear attack subs. Secondly, they're very congested. And third, they're mostly territorial waters of the littoral states.

BTW, what would you envisage nuclear attack subs doing in such waters? I don't see a role they could perform there that couldn't be done better by cheaper assets.

Ofcourse - the idea is not to patrol the channel but rather at the choke points where it enters into the indian ocean. In the channel itself a sub itself looks pretty vulnearble besides which for a "friendly" navy it would only cause tensions with Malaysia and Indonesia. The context is patrolling effectively all the SLOCs in the Indian Ocean region and since it is a high traffic area the idea would be to remain submerged and undetected nuc-subs can do this much better than conventional subs - indian subs need to come up every now and then to recharge batteries etc, a nuc sub has a great range and doesnt need to surface and monitor silently the going ons. Current sub bases in india are a good 5400 kms away from this area and conventional subs wouldnt be the choice

 

[swerve]

That choke point can be covered by surface & air surveillance from the Andaman & Nicobar islands. Everything passing Malacca passes near them. If you want constant sonar coverage (why?), build a passive sonar array, or have ASW vessels based in the islands.

Using a nuclear submarine for constant surveillance of a choke point which is also one of the worlds busiest sea lanes is expensive & inefficient, & I can't see what purpose it serves. What exactly do you expect a nuclear attack sub to do at the mouth of the straits? You're not going to be taken by surprise by the PLAN sortieing through there.

 

[gf0012-aust]

That choke point can be covered by surface & air surveillance from the Andaman & Nicobar islands. Everything passing Malacca passes near them. If you want constant sonar coverage (why?), build a passive sonar array, or have ASW vessels based in the islands.

which is what already has happened....

You're not going to be taken by surprise by the PLAN sortieing through there.

As the PLAN discovered during the 2004 Tsunami....

India already runs ferrets up and down the andoman end of the straits.

I agree that a nuke on that kind of a mission is a woftam. an overhead surveilance asset will see more and cover more for that mission than a sub will by at any stage....

 

[Lostfleet]

One thing Indian Navy has to be careful for is the protection of the carriers.

The more carriers you have, you will need more frigates and destroyers for both ASW and AA defense and more scouting subs ahead of the fleet for enemy subs.

Big, Medium, Small it does not matter, to sink an aircraft carrier is a big political event of course it is a big strategic loss as well, so all of the enemy armed forces would concantrate to sink an aircraft carrier.

So whatever the Indian Navy is planning, I hope they are having a gradual increase in their fleet defence in both number of platforms and technology.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The more carriers you have, you will need more frigates and destroyers for both ASW and AA defense and more scouting subs ahead of the fleet for enemy subs.

no such thing as a "scouting sub" - all subs are ISR platforms to varying degrees - even the SLBM trucks...

the task force make up is determined by the area of op and likely respondent. eg going into the south china sea would see a broader and more robust mix than loitering off Myanmar

Big, Medium, Small it does not matter, to sink an aircraft carrier is a big political event of course it is a big strategic loss as well, so all of the enemy armed forces would concantrate to sink an aircraft carrier.

size does matter - it determines capability and intent when things go belly up.

you don't need to concentrate your forces to go for a carrier - the cold war solution is not necessarily relevant with current capabilities.

 

[Lostfleet]

well yes I am thinking this in the line of cold war which might be outdated here, however didnt subs were send back then ahead of the carrier task force to make sure there are no cruise missile carrying subs in the way? ( nasty soviet ssgn's to be precise). Of course I dont know if the Indian Navy would have a similiar threat.

About the size of the carrier, I was trying to say that the size of the carrier will not matter politically and in the view of the public. For the public it would not matter if it is a small carrier or a big carrier, it will be still an aircraft carrier and have a greater impact on morale if something happened to it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

well yes I am thinking this in the line of cold war which might be outdated here, however didnt subs were send back then ahead of the carrier task force to make sure there are no cruise missile carrying subs in the way? ( nasty soviet ssgn's to be precise).

No. That was not their job. Their job was to kill the enemy SSN's and SSK's.

Other US SSN's were tasked to hack Soviet SSBN's and the very few SSGN's.

 

[dragonfire]

I doubt that Indian carier groups would field any subs as such, they would ASW assets ofcourse, subs in the current scheme of things would be putting "all eggs in the same basket" as such beacuse IN does not have currently even have enough subs, out of 16 subs only about 10 are active at any given point in time.

 

[dragonfire]

As the PLAN discovered during the 2004 Tsunami....

gf0012-aust: Could you please elaborate wht happened, are you refering to the fact tht india dispatched navy ships to indonesia for support and humanitarian mission or something else

India already runs ferrets up and down the andoman end of he straits.

Is this referring to some kind of Passive sonar or towed array sonar on subs or something totaly diff - ididnt get wht a ferret is here

 

[gf0012-aust]

gf0012-aust: Could you please elaborate wht happened, are you refering to the fact tht india dispatched navy ships to indonesia for support and humanitarian mission or something else

The PLAN sub definitely was not on a humanitarian mission.

Is this referring to some kind of Passive sonar or towed array sonar on subs or something totaly diff - ididnt get wht a ferret is here

A ferret is an ISR event. It usually means that your asset is out harvesting in your "enemies" backyard - and they don't know that you're there - or can't do anything about it

 

[dragonfire]

The PLAN sub definitely was not on a humanitarian mission.

A ferret is an ISR event. It usually means that your asset is out harvesting in your "enemies" backyard - and they don't know that you're there - or can't do anything about it

Ok, am a Defence Buff not pro, you said the ferret is activity in the enemy's backyard, you also said this was in the Andoman straits tht this 'ISR' activity took place, so am confused beacuse Andoman is still Indian teritory.

Also reg the PLAN sub - you are teasing us, pls give us some concrete input or even if some site is there where we can read about this pls point us in the right direction

 

[Feanor]

I think he means that the PLAN was running a ferret in the INs back yard.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think he means that the PLAN was running a ferret in the INs back yard.

Thank you.

In 2004 a US nuke was hacking a PLAN sub that was hacking an IN sub. The US knew that both subs didn't have sensitive gear on board as they started to detect the beginnings of the Tsunami and sent an alert - the IN and PLAN subs continued on as the Tsunami evolved.

There has been a view that the PLAN sub got caught in an event and was severely damaged. It was in USN Proceedings early 2005.

So, there was a conga line of subs following each other.

 

[dragonfire]

Thank you.

In 2004 a US nuke was hacking a PLAN sub that was hacking an IN sub. The US knew that both subs didn't have sensitive gear on board as they started to detect the beginnings of the Tsunami and sent an alert - the IN and PLAN subs continued on as the Tsunami evolved.

There has been a view that the PLAN sub got caught in an event and was severely damaged. It was in USN Proceedings early 2005.

So, there was a conga line of subs following each other.

Very interesting - tnks for the decryption

Well this is precisely why IN should have more subs esp nuc-subs

I also read somehwere tht PLAN subs have in the past shadowed US carrier group(s) as well. Now wht kind of ASW assets should an Indian carrier group have against such submarine threats. also wht are the typical USN boats detection ranges against other subs

 

[dragonfire]

News Update

http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/27/stories/2009012759521300.htm

Team to hold talks on Gorshkov price

NEW DELHI: In an effort to bring finality to the long-pending aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) deal, a team of four officials left for Russia on Monday.

The team will work on fixing a final price for the aircraft carrier, being refitted by the Russians. Once it takes a view, there will be a final round of talks at the Defence Secretary-level, authoritative sources in the Defence Ministry said. . . . .

-
Well looks like another round of discussion -OMG. Well atleast there is some progress towards India getting an aircraft carrier, hopefuly the Indian and russian teams come to a conclusion and resolve the pending issues or its gonna go to the cold storage or by the time the carrier is finaly inducted it would be very very late

 

[dragonfire]

News Update (it's posted here bcauz the other IN thread is locked)

A feature on the Indian Navy will be aired on the discovery channel from feb 2nd at 9PM (IST) onwards - maybe the coverage will be available across the subcontinent. I Think the name of the show is Future Navy or some such thing..

 

[dragonfire]

Thank you.

In 2004 a US nuke was hacking a PLAN sub that was hacking an IN sub. The US knew that both subs didn't have sensitive gear on board as they started to detect the beginnings of the Tsunami and sent an alert - the IN and PLAN subs continued on as the Tsunami evolved.

There has been a view that the PLAN sub got caught in an event and was severely damaged. It was in USN Proceedings early 2005.

So, there was a conga line of subs following each other.

Well now an Indian sub was allegedly caught hacking Chinese warships in Al-Mandab Strait in the Indian ocean near the gulf of Aden. The indian press is reporting a report in the Chinese publication South China Morning Post

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/feb/04india-china-face-off-in-the-indian-ocean.htm
--

February 04, 2009 12:21 IST
Last Updated: February 04, 2009 12:22 IST
In the first military stand-off between the two Asian giants since 1986, an Indian submarine and two Chinese warships came close to a confrontation in the Bab Al-Mandab Strait, but the situation was resolved when the submarine left the site, the South China Morning Post reported on Wednesday.

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How would the ships have forced the submarine to surface i dont understand though, unless there was some aggressive attack tactic employed by the warships - any ideas ?