Privatization of 3rd world navies

Vigilantism

New Member
Hello everyone.

I'm part of a small group that has been kicking around this topic for a few months, and we thought it may be time to air out the ideas and concepts in public.

Well, as public as the internet can be considered.

The topic came up after seeing news reports of the recent surge in pirate activity around the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean. With the amount of countries affected, and the large amount of nations within distance of the problem, it's fairly easy to see how this would be a complex issue.

This upward trend in piracy is directly affecting regional nations by way of trade. Many of these nations GNP are dependant on marine trade, and in recent years charter rates and insurance rates have been skyrocketing.

With this direct correlation between piracy and national security established, one question arose: Where were these navies?

The answer was not unexpected. These navies, while doing their best, were ill-suited and underfunded for the task. True, Somalia, the country recognized as being a hotbed of pirate activity, has little to no naval presence.

Take an example country affected by the decrease in maritime security, Kenya. The port of Mombasa makes up a large amount of the commerce that goes through this country, with an oil refinery and cement industry dependant on the everyday security of this port. Business has already been negatively impacted, a trend that must be very difficult for this already challenged country.

What has their naval forces done to rectify the situation? Well, not much. Considering that the majority of this negative activity happens outside of their territorial waters, they would require quite an extensive purpose-built force. Unfortunatley, the Kenyan Navy only has four OPVs at their disposal, two of which are seldom used for unknown reasons(built to civillian specifications), and two which are getting long in the tooth and due for a refit(supposed to happen sometime soon by a spanish firm). Many sources have incorrectly reported two to four other patrol vessels, but this is incorrect - all four of these converted missile boats have been decomissioned. One OPV sits in Spain, waiting for a year now for final payment. Total cost of ship is estimated to be around 21 million. It is unknown what amount the final payment is.

It can be interpolated that this meager navy is overbudget, so one would not expect more funds from the government. Some may say that these regional countries should let NATO deal with the issue, but NATO has not been sucsessful in controlling the situation.

The question was raised, what could a Navy do to generate revenue, and why should it refrain from doing so.

Before I let you guys loose on that question, let's focus on the other sides of this situation.

International shipping companies are doing one of three things with the security issue: Most are simply eating the increased cost of doing buisness with the hope that the situation will rectify itself, while others are avoiding the trouble area altogether by accepting a 30% transit time increase by navigating around the cape instead of risking transiting the Suez. Still others are relying on military corporations to provide onboard security - a trend that most insurance companies have categorized as a risk. Nobody wants to insure a vessel that may have a running gunfight on it's decks.

Circumventing the problem area has proven to be expensive, and is not always effective. Consider that the infamous Sirus Star was not a SuezMax design - it had to navigate to the south yet was still taken. So far, evidence suggests that onboard security is only financially viable to those charging for the service.

Some companies have expressed interest in hiring escort vessels, even though private warships are technically illegal according to international laws. So far it seems that only Blackwater has attempted to break into this market with their MacArthur, which was previously used for training purposes.

The question at this point was whether these regional navies could offer escort services to vessels traveling outside of their territorial waters, and if were at all marketable. And if not, could a regional navy offer other services? For example, the Kenyan navy has some excellent divers, and a long history of deploying them on various missions. Could they offer training services? Any influx of capital towards these navies could help offset their operating costs, therefore allowing them to pursue additional security to their region.

Your thoughts?

(edited for formatting snafu[edit: and atrocious laptop grammar])
 
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metalkat 77

New Member
Well it is a complicated issue but it is familiar to me because I have been reading in the news paper about this situation, thinks that I know agree with information I get in the news paper is for example many companies have been recuested security asistence to their own gouvements' copuntires recuesting a considerable display of their own navy forces to protect them in the moment when they cross the dangerous waters infected by the piracy thats about to know after read the news about a ship kipnaped by somalians pirats and wich ship was carring with batle tanks destination Iraq, now what have been doing the international comunity with the countries wich have a high risk in security and if they have been provide some kind of support to relive this situation conditionating this asistence with the results deliverring by the countries which have this problem you know give a finantial to they can bouild a fleet specializise in that pourpose o provide the necesary isues like boats, equipment, guns to cristal this job I don't know what do you think about it.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
the piracy thats about to know after read the news about a ship kipnaped by somalians pirats and wich ship was carring with batle tanks destination Iraq,
If it's the Faina you're thinking of, it was headed to Kenya. ;)
 

Vigilantism

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  • #5
To address one of the issues(I think, anyway...) that metalkat raised, yes, most shipping companies are looking to the big names in the boats with guns business to sort this out. Most want armed escort from port to port, of course.

The problem is multifaceted. One, what navy could support escorts of all ships? Two, why should a navy defend vessels outside of its waters? Answer to two usually has something to do with defending it's citizens, but problem three rears its head. Why should a navy defend vessels that register themselves through ports of convenience to bypass taxes and inspections?

I'll come out and say it - I don't think they should, at least not for free.
 

dragonfire

New Member
Me thinks a private armed force is a bad idea - beacuse private means profits and not National Interests - private means mercenary - while on a micro level private security companies have there own advantages i sincerely hope this particular pirate releated issue is solved through non-private means
-- Cheers
 

Vigilantism

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Me thinks a private armed force is a bad idea - beacuse private means profits and not National Interests - private means mercenary - while on a micro level private security companies have there own advantages i sincerely hope this particular pirate releated issue is solved through non-private means
-- Cheers
It need not be private, really. Just tack on an accounting department and charge for escorting ships that are not transiting your waters.

When they're not pulling escort duty, they're pulling CG duties or any of their normal tasks.

I also wish that standing navies were able to deal with the pirate threat, but I fear it has gone too far for them to be able to short of invasion. An entire country has been shown that they do not have to go hungry, if they only commit a few acts that they do not consider to be breaking the law. They will have more patience and endurance than a navy draining it's budget so far from it's home waters.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Just like piracy on the high seas two hundred years ago, the solution is on the ground. Unfortunately, no one wants to enter the failed mess of Somalia. Its no longer a nation, its a land of warlords and crime.
 

Vigilantism

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Just like piracy on the high seas two hundred years ago, the solution is on the ground. Unfortunately, no one wants to enter the failed mess of Somalia. Its no longer a nation, its a land of warlords and crime.
Agreed. The only real-world solution would equate to a band-aid in the grand scheme of things. Nothing short of a full-scale sucessful invasion has any hope of solving the situation in the area, and even then it's not a sure thing. Remember, we're not dealing with a few miscreants, we're dealing with the majority of a nation behind this problem. This makes the current situation far different than any other piracy related issue in history.

But solving the issue isn't really the question - the real question is how do financially challenged nations find the funds to combat the issues in their backyards?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The world as a whole acting together through the UN has to heavily mine their waters. Its cheaper than enforcing a naval blockade or escorting shipping in their waters. I also feel a nation of outlaws should have their land borders closed as well. Any shorter action is a waste of time and resources.
 

Vigilantism

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The world as a whole acting together through the UN has to heavily mine their waters. Its cheaper than enforcing a naval blockade or escorting shipping in their waters. I also feel a nation of outlaws should have their land borders closed as well. Any shorter action is a waste of time and resources.

Agreed, again.

Mines that can take out that small of vessels might be difficult, and I'm sure PETA would throw a fit at how many sharks expired while learning that rubbing against such touchy devices is a bad idea. :D

That said, get a rid of the problem in Somalia, it'll pop up somewhere else. Are privatized naval escorts a eventuality that bears consideration?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The world as a whole acting together through the UN has to heavily mine their waters. Its cheaper than enforcing a naval blockade or escorting shipping in their waters. I also feel a nation of outlaws should have their land borders closed as well. Any shorter action is a waste of time and resources.
Mine the entire coast? Do you realise how many million mines that would take? How many billions are you prepared to spend on mines? Will you take years doing it, or send a vast fleet of ships to lay mines? And what do you do if one day, Somalia gets a peaceful, orderly government? Say "hard luck, you're screwed until the mines all decay into uselessness"? Or spend billions more clearing them?

How much will you spend on MCM to keep sea lanes clear of the mines you lay? Or will you watch the vast minefields, to make sure they all stay in place? Or just tell shipowners & crews "Use those sea lanes at your own risk".

As for the land borders - how many soldiers, aircraft, vehicles & surveillance devices do you have spare? More billions every year, to keep that blockade in place.

What you suggest is vastly more costly (an order of magnitude, at least, IMO) than what's being done now, & would have its own risks. You seem to have forgotten the purpose. Being nasty to Somalis is not an end in itself, but a possible means to an end, & that end is to make the neighbourhood safer for neighbours & passers-by. Laying mines along a coast is not a good way to make nearby shipping lanes safe.
 

Tavarisch

New Member
Mine the entire coast? Do you realise how many million mines that would take? How many billions are you prepared to spend on mines? Will you take years doing it, or send a vast fleet of ships to lay mines? And what do you do if one day, Somalia gets a peaceful, orderly government? Say "hard luck, you're screwed until the mines all decay into uselessness"? Or spend billions more clearing them?

How much will you spend on MCM to keep sea lanes clear of the mines you lay? Or will you watch the vast minefields, to make sure they all stay in place? Or just tell shipowners & crews "Use those sea lanes at your own risk".

As for the land borders - how many soldiers, aircraft, vehicles & surveillance devices do you have spare? More billions every year, to keep that blockade in place.

What you suggest is vastly more costly (an order of magnitude, at least, IMO) than what's being done now, & would have its own risks. You seem to have forgotten the purpose. Being nasty to Somalis is not an end in itself, but a possible means to an end, & that end is to make the neighbourhood safer for neighbours & passers-by. Laying mines along a coast is not a good way to make nearby shipping lanes safe.
I partially concur, mainly on the sea mine concept. It's a bit impractical.

However, an embargo and blockade shouldn't be too hard to impose. If you've got at least a coalition of 10 nations, it should do. Missile boats and frigates can kick the shit out of those weakling little boats the pirates use. But the question is why should they even bother?

To say it is financially impossible is a lie outright. (sorry if it sounds harsh)

If the US of A can invade Iraq based on no solid reasons, I don't see a reason why they can't help out Somalia. I do believe Clinton tried to, but to no avail as I can see the country still is the same place it was in 1993. (Sorry if that sounded offending, but it's a fact. If they said Iraq had WMDs, I'm sure they would've found them a long time ago. It's been 5 years. How hard is it to locate a silo or a bunker with an overhead satellite? No harm was intended to anyone. CIA decrypts clearly state that Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9/11. So, what is the reason for many young American people to die in Iraq? Oil would be the best answer.)
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Laying mines along a coast is not a good way to make nearby shipping lanes safe.
And lets not forget it would prevent those Spanish fishing fleets from scouring the Somali EEZ without having any impediment through laws or otherwise. The ones that are the main reason Spain actually sent soldiers down there to protect their activities.
However, an embargo and blockade shouldn't be too hard to impose. If you've got at least a coalition of 10 nations, it should do. Missile boats and frigates can kick the shit out of those weakling little boats the pirates use. But the question is why should they even bother?
NATO and Allies are currently watching over 2.5 million square km in that area. With 50 ships, 80+ helos and half a dozen MPA. Barely so.
Missile Boats? They tried that in '01/'02, they're just not suited to the area.
Embargo? No one's delivering to the area anyway, they don't have money.
I do believe Clinton tried to, but to no avail as I can see the country still is the same place it was in 1993.
What went on down there till '93 is a whole different thing. The good old "our SoB isn't doing what we want, so we'll eliminate him". Or try to.
 

Vigilantism

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I don't think Toby was being literal in his mining statement. I'll try not to put words in his mouth, but he may have meant that any action less than that would be a waste. More than a full blockade would be invasion.

Personally, I feel there is no real way to fix the issue, but rather only bandages of varying degrees of effectiveness. I think that shipping interests should be able to pay a regional navy for their time and risk in exchange for escort through regional waters.
 

11561

New Member
Hello gents, just had to chime in on this,

If I'm reading the original post correctly, I believe this was less of a question of how to stop rampant piracy, and more of a question of how to help cash-strapped 3rd world navies patrol their own shores.

Like the original Kenyan example states, Kenya's been waiting for some OPV with a total cost of 21 million, due to lack of funds. I believe that the US Navy pisses 21 mil a day. Such a relatively small amount of money shouldn't be the thing holding a real, national navy from getting the equipment it needs to do the job set forth for them by the people they represent. But if funds end up being the problem, Why shouldn't the navy in question be able to go about procuring funds in the private sector in a manner that's responsible and in-line with national and international norms?

As an example, I think it's fine for Kenyan divers to offer training classes for civillians. Take them out in a Navy launch, give them some diving equipment, and teach them how to reef-dive or wreck-dive, or whatever. If Kenya has any wrecks or reefs or anything. Call it an "Official Navy Dive Adventure". Make it touristy.

Doesn't Russia do something similiar? I can take a ride in a MiG-29 (31?) for a few thousand dollars. I can take a ride on a Soyuz for a couple of million. There was some American singer a few years back that was going to do just that, but then the ride fell through because he either couldn't come up with the money or couldn't pass cosmonaut training, I forget which.

Not for nothing, almost all of the diving instructors I've met were ex-USN divers or had been in the USN at some point. Why does one need to be Ex-navy instead of active navy to make a few dollars, as long as making those dollars doesn't interfere w/ active duty?
 

dragonfire

New Member
Nothing short of a full-scale sucessful invasion has any hope of solving the situation in the area
I sincerely hope the word 'Invasion' will not be used on any ground based activity by UN backed forces in Somalia. I think tht will not at all be sucessful in resolving issues, it will only create new ones, however select strikes could be done to destroy the sea going capabilities of only the pirates

I think this would be more successful and less costly, identify all pirate used vessels and possible vessels esp the longer range ones so tht the actual fishermen can be spared - then destroy them irrepairably and also destroy any boat building capabilitites of these pirates and keep monitoring the situation to prevent any rebuilding of capabilities

An invasion can be prevented and the size of the foce deployed there can be brought down
 

Vigilantism

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I sincerely hope the word 'Invasion' will not be used on any ground based activity by UN backed forces in Somalia. I think tht will not at all be sucessful in resolving issues, it will only create new ones, however select strikes could be done to destroy the sea going capabilities of only the pirates
I disagree. The sea-going capability of the pirates is both prolific and cheap. Also, the vessels they use are identical to fishing vessels - even if we identified all of the current vessels, it would be simple for them to purchase more second hand.

But as I said, we're not dealing with a few miscreants misbehaving. It's a survival thing to these folks, and since it's been shown to be so profitable(indeed, somalias biggest industry at the moment), it's no longer simple fishermen turned bad. We're seeing the kinds of individuals that have never previous stepped on a boat before.

In other words, what you're suggesting is attacking the symptom of the problem rather than the root cause.
 

Vigilantism

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Heh, I think the USN pisses a lot more than 21mil away per day. :p The real sad part about that story is that we're not even talking about being unable to pony up 21mil, it's about being unable to pony up the last payment on 21mil. And no, it has nothing to do with the vessel itself - they've already decomissioned the boats it's going to replace last year.

Side note, those older boats are now for sale for around 400k each. So if you're looking for a truely unique yacht...


Hello gents, just had to chime in on this,

If I'm reading the original post correctly, I believe this was less of a question of how to stop rampant piracy, and more of a question of how to help cash-strapped 3rd world navies patrol their own shores.

Like the original Kenyan example states, Kenya's been waiting for some OPV with a total cost of 21 million, due to lack of funds. I believe that the US Navy pisses 21 mil a day. Such a relatively small amount of money shouldn't be the thing holding a real, national navy from getting the equipment it needs to do the job set forth for them by the people they represent. But if funds end up being the problem, Why shouldn't the navy in question be able to go about procuring funds in the private sector in a manner that's responsible and in-line with national and international norms?

As an example, I think it's fine for Kenyan divers to offer training classes for civillians. Take them out in a Navy launch, give them some diving equipment, and teach them how to reef-dive or wreck-dive, or whatever. If Kenya has any wrecks or reefs or anything. Call it an "Official Navy Dive Adventure". Make it touristy.

Doesn't Russia do something similiar? I can take a ride in a MiG-29 (31?) for a few thousand dollars. I can take a ride on a Soyuz for a couple of million. There was some American singer a few years back that was going to do just that, but then the ride fell through because he either couldn't come up with the money or couldn't pass cosmonaut training, I forget which.

Not for nothing, almost all of the diving instructors I've met were ex-USN divers or had been in the USN at some point. Why does one need to be Ex-navy instead of active navy to make a few dollars, as long as making those dollars doesn't interfere w/ active duty?
 

dragonfire

New Member
I disagree. The sea-going capability of the pirates is both prolific and cheap. Also, the vessels they use are identical to fishing vessels - even if we identified all of the current vessels, it would be simple for them to purchase more second hand.

In other words, what you're suggesting is attacking the symptom of the problem rather than the root cause.
You must also understand that the symptom as such is a problem and a major one, i think the solution i put forward is only the defense/millitary part of the overall solution as this is a def forum, and i was proposing wht i believe is the cheapest and in the long term more viable and practicle solution without aggravating probs in somalia.

I would like to know wht would your solution to this prob would be
 
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