They may have been used, and simply not mentioned. Or they may not have been ready enough to respond quickly. Here's what I found on MDB:
q
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http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/1-2008/item2/article3/
Russia to get SU-35 by 2011
- Thread starter F-15 Eagle
- Start date
If the first delivery was made in 2006, it's likely that 1-2 more have been made since then. The question is though whether the delivery in 2006 is an approved serial modernization, or an experimental prototype. If it's the latter, then it's likely that the program has yet to take off.
Maybe because Georgia doesnt have a real air force other than a few Su 25's?
Radar
Could just be as simple that Russia's armed forces have a different doctrine of operations and one wasn't needed.
If a Russian squadron/Regiment was going to convert to Su-35's from Su-27's in the future how far in advance would the training for pilots and maintenance crews begin?
I'm aware of that but AWACS aircraft have other uses as well one being "Command & Control" over a battle field. Since Georgia didn't have any real fighters it would have been a perfect situation for one or more to be used.
Could just be as simple that Russia's armed forces have a different doctrine of operations and one wasn't needed.
If a Russian squadron/Regiment was going to convert to Su-35's from Su-27's in the future how far in advance would the training for pilots and maintenance crews begin?
Haavarla
Active Member
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I think your mistaken regarding having a different doctorine. Russia did not start using AWACS with the A50. In fact they have had a few AWACS generations much b4 this latest version. I belive the earlier 1 used bear or was it Moss? as AWACS.
They were not used as AWACs planes - they had the same capability as the USN Tomcats where muultiple threats could be managed concurrently at a sensor level.
There is a reason why AWACs have between 6-12 operators - there is NO autonomous on-board radar system on a manned fixed wing combat fighter that can autonomously undertake AWACs or AEWC's roles.
People need to understand the roles and capabilities of systems rather than make assumptions.
Fixed wing fighters using concurrent tracking is NOT AWACs by any means. Weasels and Prowlers have far more asset and air battlespace management capability than any Mig25, Mig31 derivative - and they require a minimum of 2 operators (or 3.n for the Prowler)
A single seat fighter is no defacto AWACs no matter how big its snout is.
No, but if it has datalink, and a powerful radar, it can fullfill a limited air-space control (I mean beyond that of a regular fighter) role in conjunction with other fighters.
There was one earlier AEW&C aircraft used: the Tu-126. The Ka-31 is also AEW&C but it's a helicopter, and it's main use is for the Kuznetsov.
There was one earlier AEW&C aircraft used: the Tu-126. The Ka-31 is also AEW&C but it's a helicopter, and it's main use is for the Kuznetsov.
A powerful datalink does not an AWACs make (in my best Yoda impersonation!)
The reason why AWACs are in larger multi personnel platforms is because absolute disctretion and discrimination needs to be done by a dedicated operator. The software is not smart enough to allow autonomous decision making hand offs. (it's a legal as well as operational issue)
Tomcats had the same autonomous capability, one could argue that Gripens, Typhoons (because they have a non advertised similar capability) and various other US single seat fixed wing fighter assets also can datalink other sympathetic assets in listening range etc.....
To equate AWACs capability with large single seat fighter (albeit powerful) onboard radar is fundamentally wrong - and operationally unsupportable.
An aerostat with Link-16 download can actually cover a greater sensor footprint than a Mig31 etc.. - but it is by no means an AWACs.
Comms disconnect, my reply was more to the other member who referred to them as operating like AWACs. That is fundamentally factually incorrect.
Certainly they can operate as a battlespace asset and vector in other assets on a limited basis, but so could Tomcats, so can Gripens, Rafales, Hornets, aerostats - and even more effective at this mission are the smaller weasels which are fighter based assets with another operator dedicated to that mission set.
autonomous radar sets (no matter how big and powerful they may be) are unable to operate effectively at the autonomous level (esp in the Mig25-31 series as they have inherent design liabilities)
Are they complimentary to the battlespace management role? - yes
Are they battlespace managers in their own right? - only in the crudest sense and against a limited capability set in the opposing force (and I'd suggest a relatively unsophisticated force). At a mythbusters level - NO
But unmodernized Fulcrums and Flankers (B, and s variants respectively) can't. This is where the Foxhounds are a significant asset. Though they were probably not used in the Georgian War because there are no Foxhound units in the N. Caucus MD, and no information on them being moved there or being involved came in.
With the opposing force something like the Georgian AF, with nothing but a hanful of Su-25's, and helos, even 2-3 CAPs of Foxhounds would easily have kept the entire situation under control. There are only a few bases of the Georgian AF, the geographical area in question is tiny, and thus the possible places from which the Georgian AF could have taken off were limited, and easy to keep under constant watch.
Even the Su-27S that are in the N. Caucus MD could have done the same, provided they were used a little more actively. Overall I think the lack of airspace control had more to do with readyness rate then with capability gaps due to absence of dedicated AEW&C or other airspace control assets.
Moss or whatever
In the end it doesn't matter what type or what generation Russia has they didn't seem to have any operational at the time. Even know Georgia didn't have fighters it would have given Russia's Command & Control better information on what was going on.
Russia's doctrine is a little behind because NATO or American forces would have such assets and more covering a country size area of operations. The information Feanor provided on the upgrade of 26 A-50s shows Russia is addressing this short coming. It is a huge asset to have in the battle field and I'm sure if Russia had them in the region that they would have been used. No commander is going to turn down information that may be collected by such a platform or similar platforms.
Getting back to Su-35, I would assume since the Su-35 is such a major upgrade to the basic Su-27 that a new training program would be needed. I was wondering if anybody knows of such a project or plans for such. If the 2010 or 2011 dates are to be met training should start soon.
I hope Russia's for Air Force that their aircraft industry doubles there production facilities and produces 40 to 50 aircraft per year.
Another question I have if Russia shifts to the Su-35 production would the upgrading their Su-27s end? Doesn't Russia have something like 400+ Flankers I would think they still would need a number of these until higher numbers of Su-35 go active.
Thanks
In the end it doesn't matter what type or what generation Russia has they didn't seem to have any operational at the time. Even know Georgia didn't have fighters it would have given Russia's Command & Control better information on what was going on.
Russia's doctrine is a little behind because NATO or American forces would have such assets and more covering a country size area of operations. The information Feanor provided on the upgrade of 26 A-50s shows Russia is addressing this short coming. It is a huge asset to have in the battle field and I'm sure if Russia had them in the region that they would have been used. No commander is going to turn down information that may be collected by such a platform or similar platforms.
Getting back to Su-35, I would assume since the Su-35 is such a major upgrade to the basic Su-27 that a new training program would be needed. I was wondering if anybody knows of such a project or plans for such. If the 2010 or 2011 dates are to be met training should start soon.
I hope Russia's for Air Force that their aircraft industry doubles there production facilities and produces 40 to 50 aircraft per year.
Another question I have if Russia shifts to the Su-35 production would the upgrading their Su-27s end? Doesn't Russia have something like 400+ Flankers I would think they still would need a number of these until higher numbers of Su-35 go active.
Thanks
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Checked a source I have, and as of last year Russia has ~28 A-50 'Mainstay' AEW aircraft. This number mounts either the Liana or Vega-M Shmell-II radar in the radome. This would seem to suggest that the entire AEW force is up for modernization. From memory, two issues with the A-50 stick out. One was the location of the connection point for in-flight refueling being too close to the radome for easy AAR thus reducing potential loiter time. The other was that the datalink system used by Soviet/Russian forces was different for various units and/or aircraft types, thus making relaying data between different aircraft more difficult and less seamless than it appears NATO & allied forces experience. It would be interesting to see what the modernization program consists of, and if these, or other issues get addressed.
Also, it was my understanding that all the Ka-31 'Helix-B' AEW helicopters were sold to India and that Russia retained its airframe predecessor, the Ka-29TB 'Helix-B'.
-Cheers
A new doctrine is being created for our armed forces as we speak.
Well we have the Yak-130. I'm assuming it encompasses everything needed for the Su-35BM, and even the PAK-FA.
7 flanker regiments, flying 24 planes each. The rest are in reserve and will most likely never see the light of day. 2 regiments have been modernized already to the SM standard. 2-3 will most likely switch to the Su-35BM. By the time the Su-35BM is delivered, I would think that at least another 2 regiments have been upgraded to the SM standard.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Jane's Aircraft Recognition Guide, 5th Edition
page #431 lists China & Russia as the operators of the A-50, with ~28 produced.
page #497 lists Russia as operating the Ka-29TB, and India operating the Ka-31. There is a brief blurb there that the Ka-31, which was originally known as the Ka-29RLD, was a specialized AEW/EW variant sold to India. Only ~61 Ka-29/-31's were built.
I have another source which I am trying to locate. That one was the one which mentioned the issues with the A-50's in terms of inflight refueling, and the datalink problems.
-Cheers