The Lockheed Martin folks label the F-22 an air dominance fighter.
Who is gonna make the 5-gen fighter first?
- Thread starter ghost
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It is not. F-22 can only carry AA missiles and few SDB or JDAMS, even on external pylons. No SEAD and very limited CAS. Right now it can not carry HARM or any other AS missile.
Not so. I attended a Typhoon briefing recently where the platform was pulling in excess of 9.5g sustained
The new generation suits mean that the old delimiter of 9g for the pilot is no longer a long term problem.
More to the point is that the plane doesn't need to do 9G anyway - and in a lot of aircraft the airframe stress alert will start singing at 7.5G
Again, any platform suitably wired can deliver a missile that can out turn any plane - from 20g to 65g and not "worry" about the frame over stressing.
Technologies such as DAS on platforms mean that the fighter has greater sensor awareness and capability than ever before - and does not need to subkect the pilot to fight or flight, they can literally fight and pass through.
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
mmm.. GF, you mean 7.5-g, or a missile that performs in the 20- to 50-g range, correct? And not 7.5 Mach or in the 20 to 50 Mach range?
My understanding is that (aside from some ballistic missiles and spacecraft) things in the 6+ Mach range are considered hypersonic and are still undergoing testing...
-Cheers
Admin: Brain fartus maximus - I've corrected the Mach - G statements. Too much christmas cheer.
Edit: You mean...:drunk
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Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Actually it is. The F-22A has replaced the F-117's, and they are dedicated strike assets, so clearly this platform is a capable striker. The ability to penetrate IADS at supersonic speed, remaining undetected and then release a JDAM at stand off range is a feat that many contemporary dedicated strike platforms can not emulate. Clearly the F-22A is not a one trick pony.
ReAl PrOeLiTeZ
New Member
first to make 5th generation, well without Joint development or joint production. I'd say China. Russia is in development with India, most fighters in Europe consist of several nations mostly being UK, Germany, Italy, etc... Japan hasnt really constructed a domestic fighter since WW2 era, and the F-2 is basically a upsized F-16, South Korea has relied on America for fighter techology so a bit behind on self development. so yeah probably China
Actually the question is "who is going to build the next 5th generation aircraft"
The US is already building 5th generation solo of any other country.
If you consider that the only other country to build an unmanned LO/VLO aircraft are the French - then one could argue that they are the best placed to build a manned solution. (Although there are two other countries testing LO/VLO generation UAV's in australia)
The issue is whether anyone else can and has done the sums wrt their own future manned needs.
As a general observation, I find it interesting that often people go out of their way to disparage the advantage of LO/VLO aircraft - but then want to tout their own countries advances in developing 5th Gen manned solutions. Similar attitudes seem to ride forth wrt aircraft carriers.
There seems to be an enthusiasm that LO/VLO aircraft are a WOFTAM and easily countered - but lo and behold, its ok when their own country is on the development path. (ditto for carriers)
dragonfire
New Member
Japan had asked the US to sell to it the F-22 raptors to replace the F-15 Eagle fighter planes in its inventory, this request when denied prompted Japan to pursue its own 5th Gen Stealth Fighter aircraft program. The new fighter will be developed by Mitsubishi for the Japanse Self Defense Air Force and a Carbon Fiber mock up was made and tested in France, and maybe they have completed an ATD or are in the process of making one. Incidentaly in WW2 era the Japanese Fighters were majorly Mitsubishi made
I have pics - dont know how to create thumbnails though
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I think the reference was to the UCAV in development by Dassault. I believe it is called called nEUROn, though that might just be the name of the demonstrator platform and not the final/production UCAV. Could be mistaken though.
-Cheers
I think the question is not only who will build the next 5th generation aircraft but 'when'. Certainly, the chinese ,Russians, or even Japanese may produce the next fith generation fighter.
However the timeline I see is 10-20 years distant. The Rissians have shown that its all they can do to maintain their current fleet of fighters, much less invent a viable new generation. Its better for them to add a coat of paint and call it stealthy, than to spend the money the do not have.
The Chinese claim their J-10 (or J-11) is Chinese built and generation 4.5, yet they have not been able to produce their own engines so they buy them from the Russians. Not what I would call a good indicator of building a true 5th generation fighter.
Neither country has the technology or capability to build a fifth generation fighter for at least 10-20 years.
The US has designs on the drawing boards (or so I've heard) for the 6th generation aircraft and DoD approved funds recently for continued research into an new engine that would be a 10 fold increase over current engines in production.
Other aspects of the US 5th generation fighters as well is that several key items are already in their second or third upgrades (AESA) whereas Russia on China have yet to field their first.
However the timeline I see is 10-20 years distant. The Rissians have shown that its all they can do to maintain their current fleet of fighters, much less invent a viable new generation. Its better for them to add a coat of paint and call it stealthy, than to spend the money the do not have.
The Chinese claim their J-10 (or J-11) is Chinese built and generation 4.5, yet they have not been able to produce their own engines so they buy them from the Russians. Not what I would call a good indicator of building a true 5th generation fighter.
Neither country has the technology or capability to build a fifth generation fighter for at least 10-20 years.
The US has designs on the drawing boards (or so I've heard) for the 6th generation aircraft and DoD approved funds recently for continued research into an new engine that would be a 10 fold increase over current engines in production.
Other aspects of the US 5th generation fighters as well is that several key items are already in their second or third upgrades (AESA) whereas Russia on China have yet to field their first.
In terms of production and development Russia has done far more then maintain the current fleet. Do keep in mind that Russian military aviation currently exports far more then domestic orders. Production and development facilities are in various states from complete collapse (VAPO, Sokol plant) to top-notch (KnAAPO, IAPO). Generally Sukhoi has proven itself to be more then capable of large-scale development and production, including the Fullback, and Su-35BM which are both large steps past the initial Su-27SM, and both build on the MKI, MKK, and derivatives.
It's already been stated that the avionics being tested on the Su-35BM, and the engines it will have during serial production, are the ones slated for the PAK-FA. So the necessary groundwork is being laid as we speak to produce a 5th. gen aircraft. The basic body design should already be largely completed. First prototype is expected to fly this year. While your assessment of fielding in the armed forces may be accurate (10 years) you can hardly disregard the development or production efforts being made.
Respectfully disagree. The Su-35BM, MKI etc, are all Su-27 derivitives with upgrades. (I.e, a coat of paint, bigger engine and more powerfull radar) The flaws in stealth, avionics and service ceiling limit its ability beyond that of a souped up SU-27.
It is a big jump to 5th generation as defined by the abilities and avionics of the F-22 or F-35. (Ie, surpentined intakes, internal sensors, AESA radar, sensor fusion, internally stored weapons, reduced heat signature, manuverability up to 65,000 ft)
I think service ceiling is often overlooked as the F-22 is flyable and manueverable at 65,000 ft while most other aircraft can only reach those hieghts when used like a rocket and are not manuverable at those altitudes , and must fly lower before it gains control.
That is not to say they aren't excellant 4th generation fighters though.
Haavarla
Active Member
Feanor was merely pointing out that the Su-35 and possible the Su-34 are being used for a test bed purpose on avionics, radar and engine technolegy for the PAK-FA program.
Quite clever, that way they saves a LOT of FUNDING and TIME that they can use on other stuff like aerodynamic in the windtunnels and VLO R&D etc etc..
But at the same time the Su-35 and Su-34 still reperentsent a different aircraft design and mission role on their own.
So lets leave the VLO ability out of those aircraft, couse thats where the PAK-FA will have its debut.
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Haavarla
Active Member
When the first PAK-FA prototype/demontrator makes it first flight, it will not be a fully completed product but platform for further R&D on the PAK-FA program.
The crawl-walk-run prosess is known element in developing a completly new aircraft design, and being used by every other contries as well.
The first i think they will do on those PAK-FA prototypes is confirm that the stability/drag and speed regime of the airframe is within their expectation and goals.
They'll need static airframes and in time putting out more prototypes, to increase to progress.
Then they will move on to integrating avionics, radar types and sensors of different spec's to get the best performance and of course getting the VLO figures down.
Last they probably install the AL-41F engine since the first prototypes will use the 117-S Engines. And the AL-41F is most likely being tested on others
aircrafts first.
Safe to say it's a all time consuming, so if the Chinese(J-11) prototype will make its debut before the PAK-FA! No big deal.
It will not be the final product anyway.
As long as the Russian makes the right calls and dont screw up somethink along the way(setbacks), i'm pretty sure the PAK-FA design will be something to reckon with.
They have proved the ability to R&D good aircraft design before, so why all the sceptisim?
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There are airframe differences between the aircraft. While they are Su-27 derivates, they are not upgraded Su-27. You also mention service ceiling limit and avionics, fyi both of those are different across the various Flanker derivates.
Do you have reason to suggest that the PAK-FA won't reach those parameters? At this point nothing is known about the PAK-FA, and I mean nothing at all.
He didn't say that though did he? He said it was a big jump from building good 4th Gen Fighter to 5th Gen Fighters, he didn't say the PAK-FA wouldn't do that. There is only so much ground work you can do with a 4th Gen airframe. As to the capabilities of the PAK-FA, I wouldn't want to comment until they have built it.
I have no reason other than the breakup of the Soviet Union and the loss of technicians who have found more lucrative means of employment. Recent news of Aircraft not being upgraded and some even having their delivery refused due to quality.
Its not the 'end all' I'm sure, but they are indicators.
Haavarla
Active Member
OK, are those the Mig deal with Algerie that went sour?
Isn't this somewhat old news..?
Well be that as it may, the MIG RSK are no pointers of the KNAAPO Corporation or the Sukhoi as a whole...
I think we all know how much the MIG did suffer under the breakup of Soviet.
And they did not fully recover to this day.
Infact the Su-27 was favorized over the Mig-29/Mig-31 long before the breakup of Soviet.
The MIG lost it contender on the VVS to Su-33..
The list go on and on..
Just the fact that the Russian DoD have brought the MIG RSK under the Umbrella of DJSC are a sign of good strategi, Its better to save the whats left than let it deterioate further.
MIG RSK now have the same cheif of Director as the Sukhio have i believe. And MIG RSK do contribute a little together with Yak on the PAK-FA.. Oh and lets not forget the India Mig-29Ks deal eighter.
The current economic crises have struck Russia pretty hard, but what impact this have on Sukhoi and the PAK-FA program nobody knows.
Putin has stated that the Russian DoD plans for up moderizations program will go on more or less untouched..
So lets sum it up:
The ill fait of earlier MIG corp are NO pointers on the PAK-FA program status.