Turkey buying 32 Mi-28N's

[macman]

Turkey is buying 32 Mil-28N's...

Originally they were looking to buy more Cobra's, but the US said that none were available (?). Political or genuine?

Anyway, they rejected Apache's as a replacement, & went for Mi-28N's.

Here's the translated version of the release from Arms-Tass:

Turkey intends to buy 32 attack helicopters Mi-28N

МОСКВА, 16 декабря. MOSCOW, December 16. (АРМС-ТАСС). (ARMS-TASS). Turkey plans to buy 32 Russian attack helicopter Mi-28N, as an interim measure before the start of production of new helicopters, T-129, said "Tudey Zaman", with reference to sources in the Turkish defense industry. t-129

The Secretariat of Defense Industries (SSM) Turkey 7 September, 2007 signed with Turkish companies Tyurkish Aerospace Industry "(TAI)," Aselsan and the Italian Agusta / Westland 'contract, which provides enterprise TAI production of 50 helicopters, A-129, received Turkish designation T-129. The contract includes an option for additional production of 41 helicopters. Approximate cost of production of helicopters at 3.5 billion dollars, of which the share of "Agusta / Westland" accounts for about 1.2 billion dollars. 24 June, 2008 the contract officially came into force.

Under the terms of the agreement, the total length of program production of 114 helicopters months c date of entry into force. The first T-129 should be transferred to the Armed Forces of Turkey in the 60th month of its implementation, that is, by the end of June 2013. The remaining 49 helicopters should be delivered within four and a half years after that date.

Currently VS Turkey there is a lack of attack helicopters AH-1 Cobra, a park which has fallen from 12 to 6-7 units. Earlier in the period prior to the reception by the first helicopter T-129 of the Turkish Armed Forces were planning to acquire in the USA 10 were in operation Cobra helicopters. However, U.S. State Department rejected the Turkish request, arguing its refusal to lack of available helicopters of this type. As the replacement of Turkey were invited to buy helicopters AH-64 Apache company Boeing.

Earlier, Turkish Land Forces Command rejected the suggestion by Italy as a temporary replacement helicopters Mongoose, despite the fact that these Italian helicopters were selected for co-production. According to the command, A-129 helicopters current configuration does not meet the urgent requirements of NE Turkey.

As a result, according to knowledgeable sources, SSM held talks with "Rosoboronexport" the urgent purchase of 32 Mi-28 helicopters worth some 1 billion U.S..

Fighting the latest version of the helicopter Mi-28N is designed to destroy armored vehicles, secure facilities and manpower enemy, setting the mine barriers; combat small boats, maloskorostnymi and low aircraft. The helicopter is equipped with two CCD TVZ-117VMA power of 2200 hp, can reach a maximum speed of 305 km / h and transported combat load 2400 kg, military range - 450 km.

The helicopter can carry guided missiles "Igla" air-to-air heat with GSN, PTUR "attack", 80-mm Nour S-8, 122-mm S-13 and 240-mm S-24, built-gun fire 30 -- mm, suspended container CCP-23-250 gun GSH-23L caliber 23 mm, as well as bombings and mine load.

http://72.14.235.104/translate_c?hl...n&sa=X&usg=ALkJrhjCjLjMmTVP7D-voBcE6iojXt44Cw


Why Mi-28N's rather than Apache's?

The Mi-28N is a lot cheaper as well as being a very capable attack copter from most reports, but Turkey has a mostly US based support structure.
Would think that Russian support structure would add to the costs.

Maybe not as much as the Apaches, though.
Seems to a few problems with maintenance & reliability of the Apache's in harsh climates, while the Mil choppers are pretty famous for their toughness..


To me, the major lack on the otherwise excellent Russian choppers seems to be the lack of fire-and-forget weapons, like the Hellfire missile.
They seem to prefer laser-beam riding for targeting - cheaper, but means you've got hang around a bit longer, which adds to the risk if the enemy has decent Manpad's...

 

[ROCK45]

Source

A friend of mind in a different forum mention that this "Lale Sariibrahimoglu" who wrote the story at http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=161151&bolum=100 isn't a good source. I don't know that to be a fact but he mention other Turkish articles she seem to get things wrong.

On a different note with this almost 20 year old project I don't think Russia has 32 Mi-28N built nor be in a position to export such a high number. I did a little hunting and found this article and will admit is slightly dated.

A quote from the article

Ivanov further pledged that 7 new Mi-28N “Night Hunter” helicopters would be purchased in 2006 , and that “due to helicopters high efficiency in fighting against terrorists… the MoD within 9 years shall buy from the Rostov enterprise 67 Night Hunters.” Publicly estimated costs for the Mi-28N vary considerably, from $10-20 million per machine.

Link
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...year-buy-of-67-mi28-attack-helicopters-02447/

I thought Russia's own army was going to purchase some and I think part of the Venezuela future order as well.

 

[Viktor]

To me, the major lack on the otherwise excellent Russian choppers seems to be the lack of fire-and-forget weapons, like the Hellfire missile.
They seem to prefer laser-beam riding for targeting - cheaper, but means you've got hang around a bit longer, which adds to the risk if the enemy has decent Manpad's...

I have read something about developing HERMES ATGM with fire and forget capabilities .. althrow with its Ataka 8km range there is little fear Mi-28 can be in danger with some MANPADS ...

 

[nevidimka]

Brilliant for the Havoc's!. The Havoc is actually better than the Apache's which is perhaps why Turkey chose the havoc's, plus it is more of a multirole Attack chopper compared to a dedicated anti tank chopper.

 

[Feanor]

Yeah. The article seems questionable. However arms-tass.su has the same article in Russian, and the article quotes arms-tass so it's fairly accurate. However nobody else is reporting it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[ROCK45]

Better

How you know if it's better then an Apache when it's not even flying in a active unit yet? Do we even know if anymore were built after the testing models were ordered in 2006? More information is needed I'm looking for an article from last year. The article I think said they agree on a new engine type, 2nd one and I believe approval for building 12 more model by 2010.

 

[Feanor]

2 were allegedly handed over to the armed forces in iirc 2007.

 

[ROCK45]

two

That's good news at least it's a start, allegedly.

I would assume 14 to 20 would be needed to start up a training program just to train up your trainers. Then at the same time expand it into maintenance and pilots training etc, time and money.

 

[nevidimka]

A few years ago, Sweden did a comparative test between the Logbow Apache and the Havoc and they found out that the Havoc was better overall. IIRC, the Havoc's went 12 miles inside Sweden past its IADS undetected.

 

[macman]

I thought that that the Mi-28's had been inducted at moderate numbers - somewhere around 40 or so completed & 15 or so to be inducted each year for the Russian military.

This is from Wikipedia, so not a great source, but am sure I've seen similar quoted elsewhere...

A squadron of Mi-28N from Torzhok town has taken part in the joint army exercise in Belorussia in June 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-28

 

[ROCK45]

Sweden

Hi nevidimka
I slightly remember that as well but wasn't like 1999, 2000? I can't seem to find it the like now but your right there was a comparative test between the two. I always thought it was strange that a helicopter that wasn't even really produced outside of a few prototypes was picked over a real operational one with real working systems and all.

Hi macman
I checked around and can't find any numbers stating how many are currently produced. Feanor says two were handed over in iirc 2007, not sure what iirc means maybe he can explain. The link I attached showed approval for 6 or 7 to be produced, this doesn't mean they were made. Wikipedia in some cases just plain wrong.

There are like 20, 30 links to web pages saying there plans for this number and that number but nothing to sink you teeth in.

 

[Feanor]

Found two articles. Both on arms-tass. One says that the first group of helos has been delivered (2007), the other says that the first group will be delivered in 2009. The first group that was delivered is 4 aircraft (not two, my mistake) and is being used in the training unit in Torzhok. I'm guessing 2009 is when the first line unit will receive their aircraft. I.e. the aircraft will be more or less operational (since conversion training is being done right now).

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=61947&cid=25
http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=58336&cid=24

 

[ROCK45]

Update

Thanks for the update Feanor
Do you think 10 or more so are needed to train the trainers you know to build up a training squadron? Do you know if it's two or three years to train helicopter pilots? I know fighter pilots its usually 4 to 5 years to get good.

 

[Chrom]

Most likely, this rumor was launched to get better position in bargaining with Italian corporations.

But, if anyone interested - i'm sure russians will have exactly zero problem to produce as much Mi-28 as needed as fast as needed - and i speak here about up to hundred per year. Many Mi-28 parts are interchangeable with other more popular models like Mi-24 upgrades or Mi-8/Mi-17. Mi-28 hull and avionic are nothing exceptional, even rather conservative and can be produced on same technological lines.

 

[SkolZkiy]

http://www.topic.lt/2007/10/05/mi-28n-protiv-apacha.html
If you can read Russian or use Google-translate then read this.

It is comparison of Havoc and Apache. And author refers to real numbers and characteristics of aircrafts. the resume of the article is that Mi-28N is better but it was redesigned later and is only in start of it's way in service. And Apache is a real working aircraft and only in real combat some thin places in the aircraft reveal themselves.

 

[Feanor]

So the Mi-28N has a slight advantage. In a real situation other factors, such as terrain, support assets, the target in question, and the density of GBAD, will have far more weight on success or failure of the mission, then the generally marginal differences between the two. The main difference comes in the armor, and the Mi-28N is traditionally (see Mi-24) better armored then the Apache. When you work in the factor that logistics, infrastructure availability, and politics, all play a large role in procurement decisions the advantage that the Mi-28N has quickly becomes far too small to be the deciding factor.

 

[nevidimka]

not a small advantage in design feanor. The Apache is a pure anti tank helicopter, unlike the Havoc. The havoc in an attack/anti tank loadout can carry more weapons than the Apache. Plus the Havoc after the end of cold war has been made to become multirole. It could carry drop tanks to increase range, fitted with anti air weapons and other loadouts, etc. Also the havoc has a crew compartment that can fit in 3 people if I'm not mistaken that can be used to rescue downed pilots, following the tradition of the Hinds.
For Turkey which is fighting rebels in the Kurdistan province, these multirole capability of the Havoc's can come in handy.

 

[Feanor]

I guess time will tell. Given that no other news outlets have ran the story up to this moment, I'm going to wait for the next issue of MDB and see if they mention it. So far the whole deal looks somewhat questionable. I googled it and it came up with a whole bunch of secondary and tertiary sources all claiming that Turkey MAY or CAN purchase the Mi-28N. I've found no definitive statements, and nothing official so far. If you have please end the suspense and toss us a link.

 

[ROCK45]

Production is where it counts

To kept saying one is better then the other is a moot point the Mi-28N is a glorified prototype. I'm not saying it can't be better then an Apache once finished but let Russia actually make it first and then were go from there. Three or four prototype models doesn't make an operational platform no matter how you cut it.

 

[Feanor]

To kept saying one is better then the other is a moot point the Mi-28N is a glorified prototype. I'm not saying it can't be better then an Apache once finished but let Russia actually make it first and then were go from there. Three or four prototype models doesn't make an operational platform no matter how you cut it.

I would disagree with that. Far more then 3-4 prototypes have been produced I would imagine, as the 4 that have been delivered to Torzhok are (I'm assuming since they're already in a training unit doing conversion training) of the same variant that is most likely almost fully finalized. I would imagine that the deliveries next year will be serial production.