Mi-35M For Brazil

[Feanor]

The recent visit by president Medvedev has led to Brazil selecting the Mi-35M over the A-129. This comes a short time after the Su-35BM was removed from the F-X2 tender, and is practically a first in Russo-Brazilian military cooperation.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=63316&cid=25

Is this an isolated deal or a real breakthrough by the Russian defense industry? I'm curious what you guys think.

 

[Ananda]

Cost Matter ?

Not want to be out of topic, but Indonesia also begin to be heavy with Russian Chopper like MI 35M and MI 17, in fact the only thing that prevent MI 17 become standard medium combat helicopters in our arsenal is that IPTN already heavy in producing Super Puma's...

My point is that based on our armed forces comparison studies, Only two Combat helicopters in the current market that scores highers than MI 35M; Eurocopter Tiger and Apache. However cost to acquire and maintanance (especially for Apache) are much higher than for MI 35M.

Perhaps Brazilian armed forces also come out with the same conclusion ??

Regardless the noturious high maintanace cost for russian products, it seems MI 35M can provide relative exception compare to it's peers.
Thus perhaps it's not so much increasing ties between Russia-Brazill...but just more on good economics efficiency (alias getting the best value for money).

 

[winnyfield]

Only two Combat helicopters in the current market that scores highers than MI 35M; Eurocopter Tiger and Apache. However cost to acquire and maintanance (especially for Apache) are much higher than for MI 35M.

Perhaps Brazilian armed forces also come out with the same conclusion ??

The Apache and Tiger at its core is an anti-tank system. Both were designed around European armored warfare.

Maybe Brazil doesn't need nor wants that capability - mostly jungle in that area of the world. Maybe they're looking for more of an all purpose ground attack aircraft. Something in between an Apache and A-10 = Hind?

 

[swerve]

Maybe Brazil doesn't need nor wants that capability - mostly jungle in that area of the world.

No, not mostly jungle. A lot of tropical rain forest in the north-west, but not where most of the population (all 180 million of them) & industry are. There's an awful lot of farmland, both arable & grazing.

 

[Salty Dog]

My point is that based on our armed forces comparison studies, Only two Combat helicopters in the current market that scores highers than MI 35M; Eurocopter Tiger and Apache. However cost to acquire and maintanance (especially for Apache) are much higher than for MI 35M.

Perhaps Brazilian armed forces also come out with the same conclusion ??

Regardless the noturious high maintanace cost for russian products, it seems MI 35M can provide relative exception compare to it's peers.
Thus perhaps it's not so much increasing ties between Russia-Brazill...but just more on good economics efficiency (alias getting the best value for money).

From what I've heard and read locally, that is pretty close to what happened here in Brazil. The final decision was probably made some months ago as this has been batted around for some time.

 

[Salty Dog]

The Apache and Tiger at its core is an anti-tank system. Both were designed around European armored warfare.

Maybe Brazil doesn't need nor wants that capability - mostly jungle in that area of the world. Maybe they're looking for more of an all purpose ground attack aircraft. Something in between an Apache and A-10 = Hind?

FAB already has pretty good ground attack capability with their A-1 and A-29 for their AOR. The Mi-35 will bring rotary wing anti-armour capability which is new for Brazil.

 

[ROCK45]

Hind

Wouldn't taking on a new type for such a small order be costly? Brazil has operated mainly western types up to this point I question if this deal isn't linked to something else.

 

[Salty Dog]

Wouldn't taking on a new type for such a small order be costly? Brazil has operated mainly western types up to this point I question if this deal isn't linked to something else.

Brazil has an agreement with Russia to participate (to what extent I do not know) in development of the PAK-FA. Could be a link there, but that's speculation.

 

[Feanor]

Brazil has an agreement with Russia to participate (to what extent I do not know) in development of the PAK-FA. Could be a link there, but that's speculation.

In that case it would make more sense to look for ties with the Su-35 FX-2 entry, except it got axed. At least they could have some engine or avionics commonality.

 

[eckherl]

Wouldn't taking on a new type for such a small order be costly? Brazil has operated mainly western types up to this point I question if this deal isn't linked to something else.

For such a small order it kinda makes more sense for Brazil to take on Hinds, you cannot take a grunt team along western true attack helicopters like you can with a Hind, this ability will turn it into a more multi use platform.

 

[ROCK45]

grunt team

The grunt team is useful I agree up to a point but I was thinking of the support needed long term for Russian made engines, parts, weapons, etc. Buying mainly French and American made the Russian gear a little different. It's just a little out of the norm that's all I'm sure a parts chain, maintenance, and other support can all be arranged and setup.

Does Brazil need a true tank killer like a Tiger or others probably not. I assume the armor in a Hind is for the pilot/gunner and engine areas, not sure about the little cargo area? Maybe somebody knows better then I if this area is protected. I'm just thinking maybe one of those Colombian Blackhawk gunship types setups might have been enough to serve Brazil's need? I think the armor might be a little heavily on the Hind. (smile face)

 

[Salty Dog]

In that case it would make more sense to look for ties with the Su-35 FX-2 entry, except it got axed. At least they could have some engine or avionics commonality.

AFAIK the Brazilian agreement with Russia for participation in the development of the PAK-FA is only as an "observer". There are no Brazilian plans to acquire the PAK-FA.

All Brazilian major defense equipment acquisitions require an offset. It could well be the offset for the Mi-35 buy is participation in the PAK-FA development.

 

[Feanor]

AFAIK the Brazilian agreement with Russia for participation in the development of the PAK-FA is only as an "observer". There are no Brazilian plans to acquire the PAK-FA.

All Brazilian major defense equipment acquisitions require an offset. It could well be the offset for the Mi-35 buy is participation in the PAK-FA development.

Ahh. That makes more sense. But what does this observer status entail? Access to some of the technology?

 

[Salty Dog]

Ahh. That makes more sense. But what does this observer status entail? Access to some of the technology?

The Brazilian and Russian presidents signed agreements last week.

Some highpoints:

1) Military-Technology information exchange
2) Purchase of Mi-35
3) Space launch vehicle development
4) Anti-terrorism
5) GLONASS

 

[Feanor]

Ahh. Do you have an english (well or Russian ) link by any chance?

 

[ROCK45]

Brazil

Besides Venezuela Peru operates a number of Hind type helicopters as well, some were bought from Nicaragua not sure on numbers.

I must assume in a good way the Hind-35's must be good performers since new sales are being made I'm going to do a little hunting on this mighty helicopter.

Can Brazil build EC725 in house? Which French designed helicopters can Brazil make I read briefly about some factory Brazil has?

 

[eckherl]

The grunt team is useful I agree up to a point but I was thinking of the support needed long term for Russian made engines, parts, weapons, etc. Buying mainly French and American made the Russian gear a little different. It's just a little out of the norm that's all I'm sure a parts chain, maintenance, and other support can all be arranged and setup.

Does Brazil need a true tank killer like a Tiger or others probably not. I assume the armor in a Hind is for the pilot/gunner and engine areas, not sure about the little cargo area? Maybe somebody knows better then I if this area is protected. I'm just thinking maybe one of those Colombian Blackhawk gunship types setups might have been enough to serve Brazil's need? I think the armor might be a little heavily on the Hind. (smile face)

We did not call it a flying tank for nothing, this helicopter is designed to take alot of abuse and damage on the battlefield, a heck of alot more than a western designed one. If I had to choose between a Hind or upgunned Black Hawk to transport infantry teams with, my choice would be the Hind.

 

[ROCK45]

Hind

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-GQ22LDBb15Q/mil_mi_24_mi_35_promotional/

eckherl you are right I just did a little searching and found this really cool clip and a lot more. I totally changed my mind on this bird I'm very impressed and found so much information on.

Brazil should be very happy

 

[winnyfield]

History of the Hind from Wings Of The Red Star

pt 1/5
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehm0rm8TMFo"]YouTube - Discovery Channel - Wings Of The Red Star - Mi-24 The Hind[/ame]

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Very interesting video, well done. You should post the other 4 parts of the show.