Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

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roberto

Banned Member
Feanor said:
You're making very little sense right now. So because Russia has a large amount of trade with China, Russia doesn't need military cooperation with India? When did I say anything about the Russian economy?
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Ur in serious delusions if u think Chinese money have no influence on Russian decision making. Just like US wont sell certain weopons in quantity & quality to Taiwan because of China. I said Russia wont sell anything where it cannot make profit of it or hinder its armed forces. Gorshkov is flagship. It can have many uses for Russian Navy as alot work in planning and estimation for completion has been done.
There is no more friendship prices or free strategic partnership. Even Nuke fuel and Nuke vote is tied to more reactors.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
roberto said:
Ur in serious delusions if u think Chinese money have no influence on Russian decision making. Just like US wont sell certain weopons in quantity & quality to Taiwan because of China. I said Russia wont sell anything where it cannot make profit of it or hinder its armed forces. Gorshkov is flagship. It can have many uses for Russian Navy as alot work in planning and estimation for completion has been done.
There is no more friendship prices or free strategic partnership. Even Nuke fuel and Nuke vote is tied to more reactors.
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So... Russia won't sell the Gorshkov because China has large trade relations with Russia? Wake up and smell the roses. The contract has been signed already. Not to mention that the Indians are in a very large part dependent on it for their future naval plans. Sure they'll be bargaining, but ultimately it will be sold, because if the deal falls through the impact on Russo-Indian relations will be enormous.
 
R

roberto

Banned Member
Feanor said:
So... Russia won't sell the Gorshkov because China has large trade relations with Russia? Wake up and smell the roses. The contract has been signed already. Not to mention that the Indians are in a very large part dependent on it for their future naval plans. Sure they'll be bargaining, but ultimately it will be sold, because if the deal falls through the impact on Russo-Indian relations will be enormous.
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Russia has made conditions that make the deal almost impossible to move forward. There hasnt been any payments from India since January 2007. So if in last two years it didnot solved. and half billion for Sea trial is completely different issue now which is inaddition to construction costs.
It isnt 2004 but 2008.
 
S

SkolZkiy

New Member
Gorshkov will be sold undoubtfully. It is only the question of price =) the price of even 2B$ is not enough. objectively according to world finance crisys and many other circumstances but I think that they needed to make a deal with the real price - which was not done and now they have problems (Russia and India both)
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
roberto said:
Russia has made conditions that make the deal almost impossible to move forward. There hasnt been any payments from India since January 2007. So if in last two years it didnot solved. and half billion for Sea trial is completely different issue now which is inaddition to construction costs.
It isnt 2004 but 2008.
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Sevmash is currently continuing the construction by financing it out of it's own pockets. In any event the price hike was due to the common in the Russian defense industry lowballing of the original estimate.
 
R

roberto

Banned Member
Feanor said:
Sevmash is currently continuing the construction by financing it out of it's own pockets. In any event the price hike was due to the common in the Russian defense industry lowballing of the original estimate.
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They are continuing the construction because there is interest in the ship. It is not small amount of money for second hand ship to ask for extra $2B and sea trials cost over the top of it. I highly doubt India to cough up such high amount considering there Indian currency has depreciated 30% against dollar while Chinese currency has stayed the same
 
M

macman

New Member
Regarding the Gorshkov, after it's completed, is it possible that it will be leased to India for a few years until a new CV is built? That way India has a stopgap and Russia has a 2nd carrier.
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That sounds like the best compromise all round.

Maybe have joint personnel deployment for training purposes - that way the Indian's learn how to handle a modern small carrier, while the Russian's get new personnel ready to operate when it is formally inducted.

Have it deployed in international operations after the first year or so -ie. African anti-piracy missions, peacekeeper support, as well as joint training missions...


PS. Don't think that there is any doubt from anyone that the Gorshkov was massively under quoted - they basically ended up having to build a new carrier using the Gorshkov hull as the base.
Even with the price hike's, it's still pretty cheap for what is basically a new carrier.
 
N

nevidimka

New Member
So Gorshkov is not expected to be in Indian Navy until 2012. Indian's own WTV or indegenous Carrier is expected to be ready by 2010 with constructions already on the way. The 1st of the ATv class is 30 000 + tons, while the second 1 is said to be 69000+ tons and is expected to be inducted by 2017.

If everything goes to schedule, India might as well not buy the Gorskov, instead relying on its ATV from 2010 to 2017 when they get an even bigger carrier.

If India sees it this way, it will still be beneficial for Russia as Russia could use the Gorshkov for its rapid need for force increase in its navy, as a stop gap measure until its new carriers can be built.
 
T

tphuang

Super Moderator
nevidimka said:
So Gorshkov is not expected to be in Indian Navy until 2012. Indian's own WTV or indegenous Carrier is expected to be ready by 2010 with constructions already on the way. The 1st of the ATv class is 30 000 + tons, while the second 1 is said to be 69000+ tons and is expected to be inducted by 2017.

If everything goes to schedule, India might as well not buy the Gorskov, instead relying on its ATV from 2010 to 2017 when they get an even bigger carrier.

If India sees it this way, it will still be beneficial for Russia as Russia could use the Gorshkov for its rapid need for force increase in its navy, as a stop gap measure until its new carriers can be built.
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Gorshkov would be lucky to get delivered by 2012. ATV is the nuclear sub, not the carrier, that's IAC. IAC is suppose to take even longer, like after 2015 before being ready. You gotta keep up with the news.
 
harryriedl

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
macman said:
PS. Don't think that there is any doubt from anyone that the Gorshkov was massively under quoted - they basically ended up having to build a new carrier using the Gorshkov hull as the base.
Even with the price hike's, it's still pretty cheap for what is basically a new carrier.
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the price a currant exchange rates is more expensive than CVF at over 2 Billion USD which is not a good deal by any standards
 
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Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
harryriedl said:
the price a currant exchange rates is more expensive than CVF at over 2 Billion USD which is not a good deal by any standards
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It's cheaper then building one from scratch. It's also faster.
 
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harryriedl

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Feanor said:
It's cheaper then building one from scratch. It's also faster.
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we won't know how long it will take to build the CVF[but roughly 6 years contract in 08 commission 2014 and Gorky was contracted in 04 with an expected commission 2012 that's 6 years] but the amount of delay's with Gorskov it makes you wonder. Gorky is seriously compromised ship with questionable reliability for more than a new build 2.9 VS 3.4 Billion USD. referbs always cost more than expected RN found that out with complete rebuilding of its CTOL force let take the old ARK Royal as an example of refurbishment which cost far more than it was expected and that's with Yard with all the details and experiences of vessel.
 
F

Firehorse

Banned Member
Venezuela's Chavez welcomes Russian warships

..The ship maneuvers inside Venezuela's economic zone in the eastern Caribbean will begin Dec. 1, enabling sailors to practice reconnaissance, anti-drug patrols, anti-terrorism and search and rescue operations. Rear Adm. Luis Morales said the training, including anti-aircraft exercises with Venezuela's newly bought Sukhoi fighter jets, will not involve live ammunition. ..
The maneuvers "should be viewed largely as a propaganda exercise," said analyst Anna Gilmour at Jane's Intelligence Review.
"Pragmatic Russian policy suggests that it will content itself with a brief high-profile visit, rather than a longer-term deployment that could cause severe tensions with the U.S., at a time when Russia may be looking to re-engage with the new administration," she said.
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There also are plans to build interoceanic canal across Nicaragua. Aside from revenue, it will allow the Russian Navy more flexibility when moving ships and subs between Atl. & Pac. Oceans.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6069022.stm#map
 
F

Firehorse

Banned Member
Russia to build up-to-date base for SSBNs

Now it gets interesting: earlier there were reports that all boomers will be stationed at Kola bases, with none in the Pac. Fleet. So, will they keep Deltas and Typhoons in the N.Fleet until they decom. and the new Boreys in Kamchatka only? To me that would make sense. It also shows that they are confident of Boreys' survivability- the base and the adjacent ocean is not in the "submarine bastion".

http://www.astrosol.ch/images/pacificfleetmap.jpg

http://www.astrosol.ch/images/rybachiybase.jpg

http://www.kamchatsky-krai.ru/photografii/poselki/viluchinsk.jpg

http://www.viluch.info/image/viluchinsk.jpg
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Old news. Announcements about a new submarine base that will house the Boreys in Kamchatka came last year. I'm pretty sure that Delta IV will be the N. Fleet SSBN, and the Borey will be the Pacific Fleet, with the Delta III nearing the end of their life in the near future.
 
F

Firehorse

Banned Member
Yes, it's old news, but Boreys based in Kamchatka only is new.
Meanwhile, Russia to send warship through Panama Canal

I wonder if others will follow it on its way to the Indian Ocean. Actually, that ship will probably go around the Horn, stopping in some SA ports, and meet up with the rest in S.Atlantic.
 
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