Royal New Zealand Air Force

[moahunter]

I like the idea of a couple of c17,but how often would you need them?
it might be a bit of an overkill.
I would like to see A400m in Kiwi colours to replace the h model hercs
and some chinooks

My personal view is that the A400 is a bit over-engineered / priced for the niche position it has. It's a little too small for heavy lift, and a little too big for day to day flying that something smaller like a c27 could do. With the c17 and c27 (or perhaps the embraer, which is using a proven airplane as a base), you get the best of both worlds. A world class medium / heavy lift capability for the big operations (the c17 is loved in every theater it operates, even in Europe where they are waiting for the A400), and a smaller plane that will fly to high capacity most of the time (as opposed to an A400 that will have to fly largely empty much of the time for NZ missions).

Just my take. NZ would have to move fast for a c17 though, there has been talk for some time that production will be stopped (although it is hard to imagine given what a popular and effective aircraft it is proving). The antarctic capability would be a real icing on the cake for NZ, and the US (it may help in getting a good deal, whereas there are no synergies we could replace for the Europeans).

 

[greenie]

Just having a very quick read about the A400 , If one of the big concerns of the C130j is the carbon fiber props then the A400 should be removed as well, same props.Perhapes the C 17 is the only large transport option . The thought of transporting the Nh90 and the LAVs by air as a big appeal ,great for East Timore type operations.
Their impact on regional defence might make up for the removal of the ACF.

 

[mattyem]

when are the NH-90's due to arrive?

 

[recce.k1]

when are the NH-90's due to arrive?

This article says they will be introduced between 2010 and 2011.

 

[glanini]

With the election of the new Conservative PM, is there any possibility of change in the Defence Policy (e.g. Fighter Planes)

Regards

 

[KiwiRob]

It's not on the National Party agenda, that horse has well and truly bolted, we won't get fighters back unless something drastic happens to cause a complete rethink of defense spending in NZ.

 

[greenie]

It's not on the National Party agenda, that horse has well and truly bolted, we won't get fighters back unless something drastic happens to cause a complete rethink of defense spending in NZ.

I can see that the ACF is a dead duck but what about the MB339s ???At the very least we could get them moving, and if they are sold??? just break the contract,it was ok to do it for the F16s, sorry bad day .
This is one of those "big picture " ideas that the pollies just never get.

 

[Lucasnz]

Some interesting news out of the election. Stuff is reporting that RNZAF Whenuapai is to remain open and that there will be no commerical operations out of the airbase.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4756333a6016.html

On the other front the Airforce is establishing an active reserve component using ex RNZAF personnel to help cover trade shortfalls.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10542833

Good news all around, though I do think there is a place for Civil / Military operations at Whenuapai.

 

[Norm]

It's not on the National Party agenda, that horse has well and truly bolted, we won't get fighters back unless something drastic happens to cause a complete rethink of defense spending in NZ.

Tuesday last week (prior to the Election) I caught John Key on 1ZB Newstalk Talkback Layton Smiths morning show answering a callers Question about Nationals Defence Policy.He mentioned he hardly ever got asked and welcomed the call.

He covered off the need to have a White paper (strategy Document for non Kiwi's) to examine defence capabilities and retention issues in particular.He said that we could'nt do everything (unlike a larger economy) that for instance America can do.He felt we should concentrate on what we do well (sounds like the other mob!!!), quoting the SAS as an example.John Key also said that compared to NATO spending our spend was very low and he was relaxed about lifting the level of spend overtime (once I guess the World Economies & NZ's stabilise).He is passionate about retaining Whenuapai Airforce base for Search and Rescue/Patrol (Orions) and sorry team cannot recall the other example he gave.

No mention of Jet Strike so it does'nt sound promising given the focus on what we can do well(ie basically working with what we have got).we will have to wait and see what the White paper holds.He said the White Paper was a priority if he won on Saturday, which he did.

 

[Sea Toby]

With the upgrades to the P-3 Orions and C-130 Hercules underway, I do not see New Zealand acquiring another transport aircraft anytime within the next decade. Since the C-17 Globemaster line won't last that long, when it comes time to buy new aircraft, I suspect the Hercules will be replaced with newer Hercules, on a one per one basis. If the Hercules are too expensive, I would support buying a few new Hercules and a few new Spartans, C-27Js.

If the same occurs with buying new Orions, I would also agree with a combination offer of a few new Orions with a few CASA 235s. But I would prefer new Hercules and Orions.

I would be surprised if New Zealand could afford the new P-8s to replace the P-3s. Possibly a reduced number along with a few CASA 235s would be affordable.

While I love the C-17, by the time a white paper is done, its line will have ended.

 

[Sea Toby]

With the upgrades to the P-3 Orions and C-130 Hercules underway, I do not see New Zealand acquiring another transport aircraft anytime within the next decade. Since the C-17 Globemaster line won't last that long, when it comes time to buy new aircraft, I suspect the Hercules will be replaced with newer Hercules, on a one per one basis. If the Hercules are too expensive, I would support buying a few new Hercules and a few new Spartans, C-27Js.

If the same occurs with buying new Orions, I would also agree with a combination offer of a few new Orions with a few CASA 235s. I would be surprised if New Zealand could afford the new P-8s to replace the P-3s. Possibly a reduced number along with a few CASA 235s would be affordable.

While I love the C-17, by the time a white paper is done, its line will have ended.

Any introduction of an air combat force, new fighters, will probably result with only new trainer/fighter aircraft. Keeping the Aeromacchis would be nice until we could buy F/T-50 Eagle aircraft from South Korea. In my mind, they are the best trainer/fighter aircraft available within the next decade.

 

[RubiconNZ]

With the upgrades to the P-3 Orions and C-130 Hercules underway, I do not see New Zealand acquiring another transport aircraft anytime within the next decade. Since the C-17 Globemaster line won't last that long, when it comes time to buy new aircraft, I suspect the Hercules will be replaced with newer Hercules, on a one per one basis. If the Hercules are too expensive, I would support buying a few new Hercules and a few new Spartans, C-27Js.

If the same occurs with buying new Orions, I would also agree with a combination offer of a few new Orions with a few CASA 235s. I would be surprised if New Zealand could afford the new P-8s to replace the P-3s. Possibly a reduced number along with a few CASA 235s would be affordable.

While I love the C-17, by the time a white paper is done, its line will have ended.

Any introduction of an air combat force, new fighters, will probably result with only new trainer/fighter aircraft. Keeping the Aeromacchis would be nice until we could buy F/T-50 Eagle aircraft from South Korea. In my mind, they are the best trainer/fighter aircraft available within the next decade.

Considering how long we will most likely fly the Hercs, I think one for one is a must, for boosted spending a few Spartans in addition would be good a capability operated until the Andovers were retired in the 90's.

While I certainly do not see the Orion being replaced 1-1 by the P-8, 4 P-8's and medium - long range UAV would certainly add massive capability while remaining in the realm of affordability.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Some interesting news out of the election. Stuff is reporting that RNZAF Whenuapai is to remain open and that there will be no commerical operations out of the airbase.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4756333a6016.html

On the other front the Airforce is establishing an active reserve component using ex RNZAF personnel to help cover trade shortfalls.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10542833

Good news all around, though I do think there is a place for Civil / Military operations at Whenuapai.

Great news about Whenuapai, do you think the reluctance to introduce civilian operations is due to local population sensitivities?

I think NZ should really act on Reserve capability this seems to be a excellent step in the right direction of semi -preparedness and capability.

 

[recce.k1]

I think NZ should really act on Reserve capability this seems to be a excellent step in the right direction of semi -preparedness and capability.

Item on today's Radio NZ Checkpoint (drive time news) on the active reserve recruitment scheme:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/__data/ass...1814-Air_Force_recruitment_takes_off-m048.asx

Features commentary from Air force spokesman Squadron Leader Glenn Davis, researcher/journalist Nicky Hagar (formally was known as a peace activist/researcher) making soothing noises and current RNZRSA National President AVM Robin Klitscher reckoning that a more formal structure should be set-up. Klitscher's comment seems reasonable to me, after all, retention is the issue, staff leave for higher paying civilian jobs, I'm sure a few ex-RNZAF types could be interested in flying Herc's in the weekends etc. Always interesting to read that USAF pilots flying C17's/C130's from Christchurch to Antarctica can be USAF Reservists sometimes. Must be one heck of a fun job!

 

[Lucasnz]

Interesting news from Stuff (here). If the airforce can show a new for jet training in the defence review the government will consider returning the MB-339 to service.

A positive comment I think - all it requires now is for defence to get there act together.

 

[mug]

I've just seen that article and was intrigued ... but on second reading there's still nothing more than a journalistic "might".

Is there more substance to the story than what the article suggests?

 

[Lucasnz]

I've just seen that article and was intrigued ... but on second reading there's still nothing more than a journalistic "might".

Is there more substance to the story than what the article suggests?

What struck me about the article was that the NZPA asked the question and in the response there was a very clear lack of mention regarding the MB-339 being sold. The references to the US sale all seem to revolve around the A-4.

 

[Norm]

John Key appears to have shot down the Jet training option,I know from my contacts ,living in the North Shore Electorate, that Wayne Mapp see's value in restoring the strike training capability and was looking to the white paper for the maths & rationale to justify it's restoration.It could be emotional on John Keys part as both the jet transports (we are mini me , only two why not 3 )are unavailable to fly back Kiwi's stranded in Thailand so lets hope so.
Nz Herald article:
John Key shoots down return of air strike capability
4:00AM Tuesday Dec 02, 2008



The Government has no plans to restore the Air Force's strike wing, and it is "extremely unlikely" that any jet training capability will be maintained, Prime Minister John Key said yesterday.

"I would have thought the Defence Force has much greater priorities," he said when asked about comments by new Defence Minister Wayne Mapp.

Dr Mapp indicated the Government might look at bringing the decommissioned Aermacchi jet trainers back into service.

The Labour Government axed the 17 Aermacchi jets and the combat wing of 17 Skyhawk fighter bombers in 2001.

The Skyhawks have been in storage since then waiting for a buyer, but the Aermacchis have been regularly flown to keep them operational.

An American company's bid to buy the aircraft for $155 million was blocked by the American State Department.

Dr Mapp's office was asked under the Official Information Act if there was a move to restore the Aermacchis to operational service so they could work with the Army and the Navy.


He responded that a defence white paper to be completed next year would "provide a process to consider whether it is desirable to retain some level of jet training capability".

But Mr Key was clear at a press conference: "There are no plans to restore the Skyhawks and the air strike wing," he said.

Mr Mapp said the sale process for the Skyhawks was continuing.

"Two companies are bidding for US Department of Defence contracts for air training support, which would require the use of ex-RNZAF aircraft.

"If either of these companies is successful, the US State Department and the US Department of Defence have undertaken to fast-track approval for the sale of the aircraft," Mr Mapp said.

- NZPA

 

[Norm]

John Key appears to have shot down the Jet training option,I know from my contacts ,living in the North Shore Electorate, that Wayne Mapp see's value in restoring the strike training capability and was looking to the white paper for the maths & rationale to justify it's restoration.It could be emotional on John Keys part as both the jet transports (we are mini me , only two why not 3 )are unavailable to fly back Kiwi's stranded in Thailand so lets hope so.

Extract NZ Herald on the deployment of a Hercules apparently the 757 which arrived in NZ in August went back for 20 days intensive maintenance just the other dat:

"...The Hercules are noisy, uncomfortable transport aircraft and the Government would have preferred to use the Air Force's Boeing 757 passenger aircraft.

But the two they have are both out of action. One is being upgraded in Alabama and the other is also in the United States for maintenance.

Mr Key was clearly unhappy about that and said it was something the Government was going to address."

 

[recce.k1]

Yeah, hmmm, I dunno. Let's see what the Whitepaper sucks in and then spits out. Key is ruling out a strike force, whereas on the other hand Mapp appears to be thinking more of Army FAC and Navy strike training with the Macchi - two different issues (nowadays for us) and not neccessarily one and the same etc.

Anyway I'm still concerned about our poor air (and rotary) transport situation. Whilst I don't expect NZ to have a full sqn of 12x 757's (after all even the exisiting two are under utilised), the fact is, even putting aside the 757 modifications, that having 2 is not sufficient for when such crisis (in Thailand) escalates to the need for the air force to have to provide evacuation etc. That is, even if the two 757's were in NZ, what would be the chances that one were undergoing maintenance and the other was engaged elsewhere anyway? Likely I'd say. Distance is an issue for NZ, get a third long range 757 I say (or a couple of 737's for troop/VIP transport, freeing up the two 757's for long range/cargo/combi missions etc).

Sure, I rave on about C17's but that is another issue altogether (and would take longer to come into fruition if it ever did).

So it's a numbers issue for NZ. It doesn't make practical sense for NZ to have as many transports as the RAAF for example, but having two 757's and five C130's typically sees half of the fleets out of action for maintenance. Throw in a C130 to summer Antarctica support, a C130 for Pacific cyclone emergencies and maybe a C130 for Afghan ops, realistically we need two or three more transporters.

Anyway whatever the number and type, IMO NZ needs to be able to deploy 2-3 at any one time anywhere where tasked (at least two C130's for Thailand would see a huge difference in ferrying the 200-300 holidaying NZ'ers out to other airports rather than the one C130. What if it breaks down)? It would be even nicer to have two sets of 2-3 aircraft to be able to be deployed concurrently in two locations, be that overseas or regionally etc - that would be the ideal wouldn't it for NZ?

Edit: I see the new Opposition are dissing the new Govt's efforts on the Thailand issue. Rich, considering the previous Govt were the ones to have two C130's away for upgrades in Canada (two are there at present), delays to the 757 mods, and a situation not too many months ago when no C130's/757's were operational. All without a fall back plan to lease additional aircraft or capacity from a third party provider. Key/Mapp should remind Mr Goff on this publically, but even better, do something about it for the future.