U.S. to make final decision on future F-22.

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The quoted timetables of Russian defence aviation industry can't be taken seriously. They lack the financial investment in the industry to achieve them and have been promising equally ambitious but never meet schedules in the past 10-15 years.
Good point. That just means that we cannot accurately speculate on when things will enter service. It does mean however that the US military should probably prepare for the worst and hope for the best. That way if Russia fails to keep with our ambitious schedule, then the USA will simply be superior on an unreachable level, where as if Russia by some miracle or otherwise (Indian and Brazil funding for ex.) does manage to stay somewhat on schedule, then the US military will be prepared to counter a peer 5th gen. threat.

Now after the credit crisis with the Russian government spending all the energy sourced cash reserves on trying to keep private industry solvent its likely the Russian military are going back to the dark old days of the 1990s. The biggest loser, after Iceland, of the credit crisis would appear to be Russia.
My knowledge of economics is rather limited, so I won't comment on this besides my eternal motto time will tell. But I really don't think that economic discussion belongs in this forum.

To be more specific, if the Russian economy collapses again, then we can expect the military to be in trouble (again). If it doesn't then we can expect a significant military revival. We can look at both cases and see what to expect but we don't need to debate the economy beyond that point simply because iirc this forum is dedicated to military discussion. So lets explore both possibilities and thus come up with likely courses of action that the USA should take in response to both, or possible in the absence of a clear knowledge which of the two will happen, the course that would leave out the chance of the USA having problems dealing with the situation that does develop.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Also on Russia one needs to note that very senior Russian industry figures have been doing their best to find large scale investment in their infrastructure because of its impending ruin. Very little (on a macro scale) has been invested in Russian industry infrastructure since the 1980s and even then it was generally crap. Now 20 years later its on the verge of falling apart.

The credit crisis has dryed up funds for investment into development in risky markets like Russia and in loans for bank funded investment. Russia is facing complete collapse of its industrial capability in the next 10 years as their tooling and so on falls apart.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Also on Russia one needs to note that very senior Russian industry figures have been doing their best to find large scale investment in their infrastructure because of its impending ruin. Very little (on a macro scale) has been invested in Russian industry infrastructure since the 1980s and even then it was generally crap. Now 20 years later its on the verge of falling apart.

The credit crisis has dryed up funds for investment into development in risky markets like Russia and in loans for bank funded investment. Russia is facing complete collapse of its industrial capability in the next 10 years as their tooling and so on falls apart.
Yes and no. Some enterprises have managed to recover in the 00's using mainly export contracts and have up to date equipment (ex. KnAAPO), while the majority have continued on a slow decline and are currently completely uncapable of serial production runs (ex NAPO with the Fullback production).
 

F-15 Eagle

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There will be NO transition from the F-22 to the F-35. They will co-exist as part of the USAF hi-low mix.
You misread what I said. I never said the F-35 would replace the F-22 I just simply said they should keep the F-22 line going until the F-35 enters service so there is no gaps in production lines, that way there is a constant line of production making fighters.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm going to move (or delete) the Russian economy posts when it has run its course - they don't belong here. I'm culpable as well.

Anyhow - the Russian economy isn't going to tank. There's just a serious shortfall of money in the federal budget the coming years (my est. $17-25bn from the oil price alone) and the stashed away cash has been compromised (shoring up banks and businesses), so where all this military buildup money is going to come from is anyones guess... will they cut, borrow, increase taxes, eat into the stashed away cash? What? This is my point.
I think the hope is that natural economic growth will increase tax revenues.
 

stigmata

New Member
F-15 Eagle said:
Can we please get back on topic? I don't remember anything about the Russian economy having to do with the U.S. Air Force.
It does on a macro level, but i think Chinese economy influence size of USAF much more. Most will of cource depend on US own economy.
I'm certain GD mentioned it more like a sticker or something, a variable to keep somewhere there in the head.
 
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Haavarla

Active Member
Also on Russia one needs to note that very senior Russian industry figures have been doing their best to find large scale investment in their infrastructure because of its impending ruin. Very little (on a macro scale) has been invested in Russian industry infrastructure since the 1980s and even then it was generally crap. Now 20 years later its on the verge of falling apart.

The credit crisis has dryed up funds for investment into development in risky markets like Russia and in loans for bank funded investment. Russia is facing complete collapse of its industrial capability in the next 10 years as their tooling and so on falls apart.

I must point out that, the Russian export results were rather impressive:
Rosoboronexport demonstrated a stable growt of profits, whitch inreased from US $3 Billion in 2000 up to US $6.2 Billion in 2007, while its contract portfolio equalled US $25Bllion. The output of it's defence contractors grew by 15.7% while that of civil manufactorers increased by more than 8% in 2007

The first Billion-dollar contract, secured by Boing, has alowed the US company to get Russian high-quality rolled titanium products for four years from 2011 until 2015.
It's a unique event in the history of Russian-US trade and economic relations. The parties signed an exclusive agreement, ensuring mutually beneficial cooperation between VSMPO-AVISMA and Boing-Russia/CIS.

The plan for Russian aircraft industry are extremely ambitious. Russia expects to manufacture more than 400 Il-96, Tu-204, Sukhoi's superjet, Tu-334, and An-148 aircraft from 2008 until 2012 alone. The corporation will gradually increase Russia's share of the internationale civil aircraft marked from the current 1% up to 5% and up to 10% by 2015.

The Russian military industry aviation too has good figures.

The economical crises will surley cool some of these prospects, but still i would say the gloomy picture from Abraham Gubler here does not compute with the reallity of Russian industries figures.

Source: Airforces montly(november 2008)
 
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gf0012-aust

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Post locked pending Mod discussions



Thread reopened after cleanup. /GD
 
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rjmaz1

New Member
Simply not the case. Russia is planning the first flight of the PAK-FA for next year, and production by 2015. That's not 10 years time, or 20 years time. That's 7 years.
Production in 2015 does not mean operational. I think you underestimate just how long things take. The first flight of an aircraft is only one step. To have an operational squadron of the aircraft often takes longer. The PAK-FA is a very very long way away. The F-22 prototype first flew 18 years ago yet the PAK-FA is yet to fly.

The F-22 took 15 years from first flight to becoming operational. If the PAK-FA flies in 2010 then it's first operational squadron may become operational in 2025 if it takes as long as F-22. Thats 2025 for an operational squadron of PAK-FA!!! Why buy more F-22's in 2008?

Realistically you're looking at other 5th gen. threats within the next two decades, long before any replacement for the F-22 is ready. Not to mention that I find it highly unlikely that the F-22 will be replaced within a timeframe of 20-30 years.
By 2025 i could nearly bet money that the replacement for the F-22 will not only be well underway but will most likely be flying. The YF-22 as replacement for the F-15 flew only 14 years after the F-15A became operational. Since the F-22 became operational in 2005 then based on history the F-22 replacement will fly by 2020. Based on previous developments the F-22 replacement will fly 5 years BEFORE the PAK-FA becomes operational! So why buy more F-22's?

Best case the F-22 replacement will fly 5 years before the PAK-FA becomes fully operational.

Thats based on timeline of previous aircraft, which you can take with a grain of salt, however using the experience of previous aircraft is far more accurate than assuming the PAK-FA will be operational tomorrow and we need more F-22 now.

You are definitely thinking worse case scenario if you believe the F-22's will be outnumbered by PAK-FA with no F-22 replacement in sight. That is borderline lunacy.

The PAK-FA is a future threat. When it is finally introduced it will still have to come against the 183 F-22's which will have greater numbers and by then would have upgraded AESA modules. By the time the PAK-FA is produced in numbers greater than 183 the F-22's replacement will most likely be in production to uneven things up.


I still think the F-22 production line should be kept open just for a few more years until the F-35 is in full swing and enters service so that way there will be a smooth transition from the F-22 to the F-35, and no gaps in production. But I understand were you are coming from..
Every month that goes by the performance and production of the F-35 becomes more certain. You'll never be 100% certain that the F-35 will be the right choice until we look back on the aircraft in 30 years time. However in my opinion the USAF is definitely confident enough in the F-35 already that production of the F-22 can shut down.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Production in 2015 does not mean operational. I think you underestimate just how long things take. The first flight of an aircraft is only one step. To have an operational squadron of the aircraft often takes longer. The PAK-FA is a very very long way away. The F-22 prototype first flew 18 years ago yet the PAK-FA is yet to fly.

The F-22 took 15 years from first flight to becoming operational. If the PAK-FA flies in 2010 then it's first operational squadron may become operational in 2025 if it takes as long as F-22. Thats 2025 for an operational squadron of PAK-FA!!! Why buy more F-22's in 2008?
This makes the assumption that 1) they take the same amount of time and 2) the PAK-FA is a purely new design and will not borrow anything from the various other Russian 5th gen. programs.

By 2025 i could nearly bet money that the replacement for the F-22 will not only be well underway but will most likely be flying. The YF-22 as replacement for the F-15 flew only 14 years after the F-15A became operational. Since the F-22 became operational in 2005 then based on history the F-22 replacement will fly by 2020. Based on previous developments the F-22 replacement will fly 5 years BEFORE the PAK-FA becomes operational! So why buy more F-22's?

Best case the F-22 replacement will fly 5 years before the PAK-FA becomes fully operational.
Look at the changing nature of defense programs. I seriously doubt that a 6th gen. fighter will be in the books before a 2025 timeframe.

Thats based on timeline of previous aircraft, which you can take with a grain of salt, however using the experience of previous aircraft is far more accurate than assuming the PAK-FA will be operational tomorrow and we need more F-22 now.

You are definitely thinking worse case scenario if you believe the F-22's will be outnumbered by PAK-FA with no F-22 replacement in sight. That is borderline lunacy.

The PAK-FA is a future threat. When it is finally introduced it will still have to come against the 183 F-22's which will have greater numbers and by then would have upgraded AESA modules. By the time the PAK-FA is produced in numbers greater than 183 the F-22's replacement will most likely be in production to uneven things up.
There is no way to realistically predict beyond a 10 year time frame, especially given our limited knowledge. I think that when the USAF says they need at least 381 planes, then they should get the 381 planes.

Every month that goes by the performance and production of the F-35 becomes more certain. You'll never be 100% certain that the F-35 will be the right choice until we look back on the aircraft in 30 years time. However in my opinion the USAF is definitely confident enough in the F-35 already that production of the F-22 can shut down.
It's a strike fighter, not a dedicated air superiority platform. Different planes, different missions.
 

F-15 Eagle

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USAF to have F-22 compromise.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...eadline=USAF Expected To Push F-22 Compromise

U.S. Air Force senior leadership will be returning soon to Congress to propose a new requirement for F-22 Raptors of between 250-275 aircraft, a cut of more than 100 F-22s in the service’s current baseline.
It is a compromise based on economic realities that is less than the service’s requirement of 381, but more than the current 183, according to aerospace industry analysts. That would allow the Air Force the options of fielding seven squadrons of 24 aircraft (two in Alaska, two in Virginia, one in Hawaii and two in New Mexico) or 10 squadrons of 18 aircraft if the service wants more squadrons and is willing to take the risk of having fewer backup aircraft.
“The Air Force is very close to a compromise between those two numbers,” says a participant in some of the discussions. “That’s not to say the requirement for 381 is not valid. But they’ve had to examine the fiscal realities and accept some [operational] risks by taking fewer than they want.”
That compromise number is sure to run into opposition from senior Pentagon officials such as Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England — considered the primary impediment to further F-22 production — as well as acquisition chief John Young. The pair have also tried to cut the alternative engine program for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as a cost-savings measure and are withholding money that Congress approved for the engine and for advanced procurement of 20 more F-22s and upgrades, including advanced software packages.
Nobody has articulated President-elect Barack Obama’s final defense policy. But those involved in the transition say the lineup of Obama’s defense advisors — including several F-22-savvy members like former Air Force Secretary F. Whitten Peters and former Pentagon acquisition chiefs Paul Kaminski and Jacques Gansler — may indicate the new administration is likely to support production of several more lots of Raptors and, equally important, fund the classified electronic attack, electronic warfare and information warfare upgrades.
“The problem is that the programs of record aren’t properly funded,” a defense consultant says. “For example, cost overruns are often driven by the millions of lines of code that have to be developed. Obama’s team thinks that spiral upgrades of existing programs can avoid the software-related cost overruns with new programs.”
While awaiting a close examination of the Pentagon’s programs, the attraction to avoid new costs is creating an early inclination to support continued production of the F-22 and to reject a plan to accelerate the F-35 program at the Raptor’s expense.
“It won’t give you 10 squadrons of 24 aircraft, but it’s a sustainable force,” the consultant says. “Eighteen is possible if the aircraft has a very high utility rate.”
Obama’s stance is expected to fall between Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ policy of focusing intensely “on the war we have” and the stance of former Air Force Secretary Mike Wynne and retired Air Force chief Gen. T. Michael Moseley — both of whom Gates fired – of preparing for the war of 20 years from now.
“My guess is that Obama’s stance is going to be more progressive than Gates, but less futuristic than Wynne and Moseley,” the consultant says. “Chances are that they will go for a F-22 force of 250.”
England has called for ending production of the F-22 and pushing production of the F-35.
“That strategy of accelerating the F-35 program really doesn’t make sense,” the Obama consultant said. “It’s not a coherent theory to keep the Air Force modernized.”
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I'm betting on either a 3-year MYP of 20-25/yr or a 2-year MYP of 25-30/yr.

Then the line shuts down and focus will be on upgrades.

No exports. No one on the Hill is willing to invest the political capital in removing the Obey Amendment.
 

F-15 Eagle

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http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/air-force-to-request-money-for-four-f-22s-2008-11-12.html

The pentagon has allowed the USAF to but 4 additional F-22s bringing the number to 187 but the future of more F-22s will depend on the newly-elected president Obama to decide the planes future. Which I'm fairly confident that Obama will be more progressive than Gates but less futuristic than the Air Force but there is a good chance that 250-275 F-22s could be built just not the 381 that the air force wanted.
 

F-15 Eagle

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I'm betting on either a 3-year MYP of 20-25/yr or a 2-year MYP of 25-30/yr.

Then the line shuts down and focus will be on upgrades.

No exports. No one on the Hill is willing to invest the political capital in removing the Obey Amendment.
Thats what I think too, 250 F-22s is way better than 183. But the F-35 is no replacement for the F-15, sure it can do A2A better than the F-15 but its not a full blown air superiority fighter like the F-22 and 183 is not enough, I just hope Obama picks someone else other than Gates to be Defense Secretary. Obama is considering some more F-22 savvy choices and I hope he does so.
 

gf0012-aust

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Which I'm fairly confident that Obama will be more progressive than Gates
there are some strong indications that Obama will keep Gates on...

from what traffic and noise we see, I doubt that the USAF is going to be getting any F-22's - certainly not another 50. They don't see the need.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Thats what I think too, 250 F-22s is way better than 183. But the F-35 is no replacement for the F-15, sure it can do A2A better than the F-15 but its not a full blown air superiority fighter like the F-22 and 183 is not enough, I just hope Obama picks someone else other than Gates to be Defense Secretary. Obama is considering some more F-22 savvy choices and I hope he does so.
I’d be interested to see what capabilities you believe the F-22 brings to the air superiority mission that the F-35 doesn’t? The F-22 is designed in response to a mid 1980s concept of air superiority. The F-35 is in many ways better suited to the mission as it is now and into the future. Especially with new air superiority weapons like JDRADM and the AMRAAM replacement.
 

ChEB

New Member
I’d be interested to see what capabilities you believe the F-22 brings to the air superiority mission that the F-35 doesn’t? The F-22 is designed in response to a mid 1980s concept of air superiority. The F-35 is in many ways better suited to the mission as it is now and into the future. Especially with new air superiority weapons like JDRADM and the AMRAAM replacement.
IMHO supercruise, a couple more AMRAAMs, a couple Aim-9s (all carried internally), plus some extra manuverability should it come down to WVR, give the F-22 that A to A advantage. I agree the f-35 is better suited for what it would be used for today, however I'm not so sure of the future. I believe they we will need both with higher numbers of F-35s.
 

stigmata

New Member
An AMRAAM launched at M1.7 increases NEZ 50% if launched at F-22's typical altitude.
Furthermore, the F-35 can't manouver efficient at high altitude, unlike TVC F-22.
That's not even counting the fact that nearly all warplanes in the world can out-run F-35. F-22 can engage and disengage at will due to its incredible sustained speed.
Then we have the issue of only 2! missiles in AtA mode for F-35 unless you want to sacrifice stealth, while F-22 has 8.
 
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