U.S. to make final decision on future F-22.

[zeven]

You're changing your critique in mid flight here. Are you critiquing Russia's ability to match the US in terms of an integrated modern air network? Or in terms of producing a platform that can come close to F-22 in performance factors? If it's the first, then I'll have to agree. If it's the second, then you don't know that for a fact, and neither do I. Time will tell.

yes Russia can't "today" match F-22 capabilities general speaking. thats what i mean.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Common guys I was just joking don't have to attack me like a pack of vultures.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

did i mention SU-35??

and tell me what goes in PAK-FAs favour?
Russians themselves promote it as a F-22 counterpart.

but it seems you live in the illusion that Russia still is a Superpower with healty military, and cutting edge technology. ther economy gets stronger for each day. but it have been quite bad for many years. and i dont think military R&D was top priority. so you dont need to be a rocket scientist to make question marks about PAK-FA is equal to F-22..

maybe Russia will be one, ones again. but not in the next decade or two.

so that brings us back to the main question, will Russia be able to counter F-22? heck noo, even China droped the project in favour of their own "5gen" program. why? not becuase they believe they can match F-22 but develop something similar to PAK-FA

You just completely misread my post. I never said Russia was a superpower and I said MAYBE in 2030 they might be one again but I never said they can match us. Now is Russia a threat to the U.S. if they wanted too? Yes with 15,000 nukes and a fairly large but still ill-quipped military can post a danger to the U.S. but they can't compete with us not at least for the next 15-20 years. But you must still live in the illusion that Russia is still as weak as it was in the 1990s and the so called "peace divined" still exist but Russia is stronger today than they were 5 years ago and they will counting to get stronger slowly but surly over time.

 

[Feanor]

yes Russia can't "today" match F-22 capabilities general speaking. thats what i mean.

Well lets start with today. The PAK-FA doesn't exist today. It will only have it's first prototype flight next year, and production is planned at 2015 at the earliest. Today Russia can't match the F-22; you're right. But you really have very little if any grounds for critiqueing the PAK-FA. Mainly because you know nothing about it, other then that it will be a 5th gen. multirole fighter.

 

[zeven]

Well lets start with today. The PAK-FA doesn't exist today. It will only have it's first prototype flight next year, and production is planned at 2015 at the earliest. Today Russia can't match the F-22; you're right. But you really have very little if any grounds for critiqueing the PAK-FA. Mainly because you know nothing about it, other then that it will be a 5th gen. multirole fighter.

In which regard, will it be a 5gen fighter? because its stealth? 30 year old conecpt? or because the Russians says so?
Look here, because an military aviation company, starts a program in 2000, and include stealth features in the design does NOT make it a "5gen" fighter. this is whats wrong on these forums.

its like saying Iran Pakistan are able to make a 5gen fighter becuase of these to factors.

and the worst thing of all, is, ppl actually thinks it will be superior to europes 4++ and equal to americans 5gen

i dont care if China and Russia says their programs develope 5gen fighters, when you don't need to be rocket scientist to figure out, their technology aint cutting edge.
in Chinas case, its obvious,
in Russia case, the lack of funding in the 90s and early 20s gaved Russia a setback. in military in general.

but hey i dont know. but this is a forum. and pretty much everyone in here, write what they think. jesus no one can be to sure about F-35 capabilities either. of that simply reason we can only rely on LMs marketing department.

Russias 4 gen fighters are uphotted/trimmed 3gen fighters, with huge setbacks because of lack of funding. and you tell me they in matter of years just will make a superior 5gen when they didnt manage to make a superior 4 gen??

 

[Haavarla]

In which regard, will it be a 5gen fighter? because its stealth? 30 year old conecpt? or because the Russians says so?
Look here, because an military aviation company, starts a program in 2000, and include stealth features in the design does NOT make it a "5gen" fighter. this is whats wrong on these forums.

its like saying Iran Pakistan are able to make a 5gen fighter becuase of these to factors.

and the worst thing of all, is, ppl actually thinks it will be superior to europes 4++ and equal to americans 5gen

i dont care if China and Russia says their programs develope 5gen fighters, when you don't need to be rocket scientist to figure out, their technology aint cutting edge.
in Chinas case, its obvious,
in Russia case, the lack of funding in the 90s and early 20s gaved Russia a setback. in military in general.

but hey i dont know. but this is a forum. and pretty much everyone in here, write what they think. jesus no one can be to sure about F-35 capabilities either. of that simply reason we can only rely on LMs marketing department.

Russias 4 gen fighters are uphotted/trimmed 3gen fighters, with huge setbacks because of lack of funding. and you tell me they in matter of years just will make a superior 5gen when they didnt manage to make a superior 4 gen??

And here's Zeven busting in with his perservere opinion of how the PAK-FA program is gonna turn out..

Hey, Let's look at this topic from a different side!
History has learned us that many inventions in the avionic develoment has little to do with all the amount of funding circulating these projects...

Just look at Wiki about the east-west armed race in the cold war, and you'll se that the Russian had exellent R&D divisions going.

 

[zeven]

And here's Zeven busting in with his perservere opinion of how the PAK-FA program is gonna turn out..

Hey, Let's look at this topic from a different side!
History has learned us that many inventions in the avionic develoment has little to do with all the amount of funding circulating these projects...

Just look at Wiki about the east-west armed race in the cold war, and you'll se that the Russian had exellent R&D divisions going.

technology have alot to do with history way of work. and you build up knowledge over time. thats why you can't buy knowledge and buy a domestic technical industry.

you can in many ways compare it to sweden. with their manpower and funds.

however, Sweden have had the luxury to keep programs going over 10 to 20 years, something Russia has not been able too.

thats why i cant see Russia been in the cutting edge in all areas that have to be included in aviation platforms.

 

[Feanor]

In which regard, will it be a 5gen fighter? because its stealth? 30 year old conecpt? or because the Russians says so?
Look here, because an military aviation company, starts a program in 2000, and include stealth features in the design does NOT make it a "5gen" fighter. this is whats wrong on these forums.

The PAK-FA program was started in 2000, but like I mentioned in another thread earlier it was founded on many previous 5th. gen programs from which it could draw on experience and technology, with the Su-47 and MiG-MFI being only two of many.

Russias 4 gen fighters are uphotted/trimmed 3gen fighters, with huge setbacks because of lack of funding. and you tell me they in matter of years just will make a superior 5gen when they didnt manage to make a superior 4 gen??

What you mean like the MKI? I suggest you do some reading.

 

[Apacheclips.com]

Do you think the U.S. would sell a lot of these f-15,f-16's as is to other nations? Or are the fighters usually stripped of advanced electronics?

 

[superhornet]

the only way to solve this mess is to cut the number of F35 and buy more F-22, 275 sounds rational but 381 is absolutely necessary. we all agree that at present F22 is unrivaled compared with Su27/35. but think about 1/2 decades later, things will change, Russia and china is bound to rolling out their own 5-generation fighters. at that moment, it's hard to envisage F22 still enjoy an overwhelming edge.
so my point is to keep purchasing F22 so that its production line keep operation and upgrade.
recently, F35 program meets many problem. i do believe F35 is a better aircraft than its predecessors F16,F18 and A-10. the most serious issue is that F35 takes much of AF budget. however, upgraded F16/F18s fully replace F35 role in strike and close air support on the conditions that F22 has taken over air superiority. Another disadavantage is that F35 munition load is much less than its predecessors. in a word, i'm sure that latest version of F16/18 is able to replace F35 in future battles.
more F22s !

time will tell !

 

[Feanor]

Superhornet F-16 and F-18 are in no way able to match the F-35 in penetration capabilities, sensor suites, situational awareness, and a number of other factors. Realistically they are far behind it. As far as Iraqi MiG-21's were compared to coalition forces F-16 and F-15 in the first Gulf War.

 

[Marc 1]

the only way to solve this mess is to cut the number of F35 and buy more F-22, 275 sounds rational but 381 is absolutely necessary. we all agree that at present F22 is unrivaled compared with Su27/35. but think about 1/2 decades later, things will change, Russia and china is bound to rolling out their own 5-generation fighters. at that moment, it's hard to envisage F22 still enjoy an overwhelming edge.
so my point is to keep purchasing F22 so that its production line keep operation and upgrade.
recently, F35 program meets many problem. i do believe F35 is a better aircraft than its predecessors F16,F18 and A-10. the most serious issue is that F35 takes much of AF budget. however, upgraded F16/F18s fully replace F35 role in strike and close air support on the conditions that F22 has taken over air superiority. Another disadavantage is that F35 munition load is much less than its predecessors. in a word, i'm sure that latest version of F16/18 is able to replace F35 in future battles.
more F22s !

time will tell !

It's not about the numbers, its how the F22 will be employed. If the cold war were still running hot and had a large potent military, then yes, I agree that more F22's are required, that that threat no longer exists and the chinese will take 20 odd years to become the same sized threat. The 183 F22's are sufficient for the current and near future threat scenario's.

The F-35's weapon load is indeed limited using internal carriage alone. But that will only be in the first days of a conflict, once the enemy air defences (ground and air) and smouldering heaps of wreckage, they can load more ordinance onto an F-35 in an unstealthy configuration than any F-16 can dream of carrying over any decent range. And the bonus is that you'll still have nearly all the airframes you started with as opposed to the casualties you'll take with non stealthy designs. There absolutely no way a legacy teen series machine is going to be replacing the F-35 in the future.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

A final decision on the future of the F-22 will be maid soon, within the first few months of the upcoming presidential administration as the production line will begin to shut down in early 2009 unless the newly elected president Obama decides to buy more. Lets watch and see what happens over the course of the next few months, I hope more F-22s will be procured, it will be very interesting.

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=200867

 

[rjmaz1]

Some people say that the F-22 production should stay open as China or Russia may test fly a comparable aircraft in 10 years time and have that aircraft in operational service in 20 years time.

Those same people fail to realise that in the next 20 years there will be no operational fighter force to match the ~183 F-22 and 1000+ F-35 aircraft filling in the gaps. We do NOT need to buy more F-22 now, to match a threat that will only exist beyond 2030.

In 20 years time the F-22's replacement platform will more than likely have seen the light of day. For the that reason the F-22 production should be shut down. The budget orientated F-35 should be purchased instead as it can already dominate the enemy in every form of air combat. The F-35 will provide a stronger overall force for the same cost.

By the time China or Russia produce a fighter force capable of matching the F-22, the replacement of the F-22 will most likely have taken to the skies which will ensure that the US remains on top.

If anything keeping production of the F-22 open delays the development and introduction of its advanced replacement.

By being picky over short term dominance it may hurt in the long run.

When you have such a large advantage over the enemy you should start pumping more money into research and development for future equipment. You do not simply keep increasing the size of your existing force that already dominates by adding more current equipment.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Some people say that the F-22 production should stay open as China or Russia may test fly a comparable aircraft in 10 years time and have that aircraft in operational service in 20 years time.

Those same people fail to realise that in the next 20 years there will be no operational fighter force to match the ~183 F-22 and 1000+ F-35 aircraft filling in the gaps. We do NOT need to buy more F-22 now, to match a threat that will only exist beyond 2030.

In 20 years time the F-22's replacement platform will more than likely have seen the light of day. For the that reason the F-22 production should be shut down. The budget orientated F-35 should be purchased instead as it can already dominate the enemy in every form of air combat. The F-35 will provide a stronger overall force for the same cost.

By the time China or Russia produce a fighter force capable of matching the F-22, the replacement of the F-22 will most likely have taken to the skies which will ensure that the US remains on top.

If anything keeping production of the F-22 open delays the development and introduction of its advanced replacement.

By being picky over short term dominance it may hurt in the long run.

When you have such a large advantage over the enemy you should start pumping more money into research and development for future equipment. You do not simply keep increasing the size of your existing force that already dominates by adding more current equipment.

I still think the F-22 production line should be kept open just for a few more years until the F-35 is in full swing and enters service so that way there will be a smooth transition from the F-22 to the F-35, and no gaps in production. But I understand were you are coming from.

 

[Salty Dog]

I still think the F-22 production line should be kept open just for a few more years until the F-35 is in full swing and enters service so that way there will be a smooth transition from the F-22 to the F-35, and no gaps in production. But I understand were you are coming from.

There will be NO transition from the F-22 to the F-35. They will co-exist as part of the USAF hi-low mix.

 

[StevoJH]

There will be NO transition from the F-22 to the F-35. They will co-exist as part of the USAF hi-low mix.

He might have meant that F22 should stay in production so that units with older aircraft can be given F22's rather then disbanding the squadrons.

 

[Feanor]

Some people say that the F-22 production should stay open as China or Russia may test fly a comparable aircraft in 10 years time and have that aircraft in operational service in 20 years time.

By the time China or Russia produce a fighter force capable of matching the F-22, the replacement of the F-22 will most likely have taken to the skies which will ensure that the US remains on top.

Simply not the case. Russia is planning the first flight of the PAK-FA for next year, and production by 2015. That's not 10 years time, or 20 years time. That's 7 years. I'm not aware of Chinese schedules, but I doubt that they plan for development stage to go past 2020. Realistically you're looking at other 5th gen. threats within the next two decades, long before any replacement for the F-22 is ready. Not to mention that I find it highly unlikely that the F-22 will be replaced within a timeframe of 20-30 years.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Simply not the case. Russia is planning the first flight of the PAK-FA for next year, and production by 2015. That's not 10 years time, or 20 years time. That's 7 years. I'm not aware of Chinese schedules, but I doubt that they plan for development stage to go past 2020. Realistically you're looking at other 5th gen. threats within the next two decades, long before any replacement for the F-22 is ready. Not to mention that I find it highly unlikely that the F-22 will be replaced within a timeframe of 20-30 years.

The quoted timetables of Russian defence aviation industry can't be taken seriously. They lack the financial investment in the industry to achieve them and have been promising equally ambitious but never meet schedules in the past 10-15 years.

Now after the credit crisis with the Russian government spending all the energy sourced cash reserves on trying to keep private industry solvent its likely the Russian military are going back to the dark old days of the 1990s. The biggest loser, after Iceland, of the credit crisis would appear to be Russia.

 

[superhornet]

There will be NO transition from the F-22 to the F-35. They will co-exist as part of the USAF hi-low mix.

based on current economic and financial turmoils, i believe shutting down F22 and focusing on F35 are the only financial acceptable arrangement for USAF. the next president barack obama needs huge bunches of money to bail out banks, housing market and spur economy growth. 183 F22s will be unchangeable. F22 is a extremely powerful fighters, however, it meets wrong time.