Bro, S-300 is not a medium range SAM.
RMAF Future; need opinions
- Thread starter Ding
- Start date
Hmmm... final post on upgrading the MAF's total capabilities and not just going for newer platforms...
Some Malaysians think that the SAF is very concerned about Malaysia's purchases but that is not the case (since the mid-90s). In the late 1990s, observers have noted that Singapore's military is far more capable than Malaysia's armed forces, even when "Malaysia and Singapore spent roughly the same amount of money" (from 1985 to 1993). Singapore's defence spending only outstripped Malaysia's defence spending after the Asian economic crisis occurred.
Simplified RSAF Development of Capabilities Time Line
B4 1982.......... Better training/More Planes
1982 to 1986... Better planes/doctrine/learn from the best
1987 to 2007... RSAF total system capabilities fight/combined arms
2007 onwards.. 3G SAF
3G SAF means tighter sensor shooter integration to enable precision deep strike with an economy of effort from a range of strike package choices.
Therefore looking at RSAF's growth as a case study, IMHO, it is important to marshal Malaysia's defence spending, by making sure each platform purchased continues to contribute to MAF's capability throughout it's life cycle.
Some Malaysians think that the SAF is very concerned about Malaysia's purchases but that is not the case (since the mid-90s). In the late 1990s, observers have noted that Singapore's military is far more capable than Malaysia's armed forces, even when "Malaysia and Singapore spent roughly the same amount of money" (from 1985 to 1993). Singapore's defence spending only outstripped Malaysia's defence spending after the Asian economic crisis occurred.
Simplified RSAF Development of Capabilities Time Line
B4 1982.......... Better training/More Planes
1982 to 1986... Better planes/doctrine/learn from the best
1987 to 2007... RSAF total system capabilities fight/combined arms
2007 onwards.. 3G SAF
3G SAF means tighter sensor shooter integration to enable precision deep strike with an economy of effort from a range of strike package choices.
Therefore looking at RSAF's growth as a case study, IMHO, it is important to marshal Malaysia's defence spending, by making sure each platform purchased continues to contribute to MAF's capability throughout it's life cycle.
Last edited:
I dont know why you were giving some info on AESA and say its the doctrine of RSAF. Honestly you can say Singapore is not worried what Malaysia gets. But having the consistant and huge spending that Sing has, it just makes it more than a coincidence when Sing decides to make a big or upgrades to fit doctrines as u say purchases.
Is it operational doctrine then that :
Mysia gets the R 77, Sing gets the AMRAAM.
Mysia buys T 91's, Sing gets Apaches and german Leapord A4's.
Mysia gets Astros, Sing gets US MLRS,
Mysia gets Flankers, Sing gets F 15's.
Not sure if the Lafayette's came close after the malaysian frigate purchase.
Why is the timing for each types seem to correlate to each other?
Since Sing had AWACS for 20 years already as you say, why is it that suddenly it was necessary to get F 15's? for AESA? you can do that by upgrading the f 16's with AESA easily.
I really dont wanna argue on this as its moot. IMO Sing always wants to be a step more than Mysia, and their enormous defence spending ensures this. But I dont want or think there will be war between us, as its damaging economically.
Is it operational doctrine then that :
Mysia gets the R 77, Sing gets the AMRAAM.
Mysia buys T 91's, Sing gets Apaches and german Leapord A4's.
Mysia gets Astros, Sing gets US MLRS,
Mysia gets Flankers, Sing gets F 15's.
Not sure if the Lafayette's came close after the malaysian frigate purchase.
Why is the timing for each types seem to correlate to each other?
Since Sing had AWACS for 20 years already as you say, why is it that suddenly it was necessary to get F 15's? for AESA? you can do that by upgrading the f 16's with AESA easily.
I really dont wanna argue on this as its moot. IMO Sing always wants to be a step more than Mysia, and their enormous defence spending ensures this. But I dont want or think there will be war between us, as its damaging economically.
Mr Ignorant
New Member
Simplified RSAF Development of Capabilities Time Line
B4 1982.......... Better training/More Planes
1982 to 1986... Better planes/doctrine/learn from the best
1987 to 2007... RSAF total system capabilities fight/combined arms
2007 onwards.. 3G SAF
3G SAF means tighter sensor shooter integration to enable precision deep strike with an economy of effort from a range of strike package choices.
Therefore looking at RSAF's growth as a case study, IMHO, it is important to marshal Malaysia's defence spending, by making sure each platform purchased continues to contribute to MAF's capability throughout it's life cycle.[/QUOTE]
Singapore's Strategy is simple. Pre-emptive Strike with minimal effort from a range of choices. That is what you said in summary.
Malaysia's strategy is simple. Economic Development first, coz we're a bigger country, so much more ground to cover
And maintain the Military optimum for REAL defence of the country. From any strike.
Indonesia's strategy is even more simple. Maintain a 1 million plus Human wrecking ball like the Laskar Jihad for instance, and the armed forces to guide them.
And Vietnam's strategy is,.....send them sexy girls first
And China is............look for weaknessess, determine the price, then buy them off.
And India is, keep a very close eye on Pakistan and Tibet. And get Malaysia on the Indian Ambit together with Indonesia, after all both countries share a deep history with India.
And Saudi Arabia's strategy is, give them Osama and Wahhabism
And Australia, their attitude is: "We're so happy to play Sheriff here, anything for you Uncle Sam"
And the US of A. "Brothers, we got Palau and Guam, and we're here in the Phillipines, so for you haters out there, you can kiss my....."
And as for East Timor, "Ordem e Progreso", Let's Samba, and as for the PNG, well, their attitude is far more insular owing to a lack of financial resources.
And finally the Thais. " We want Thaksin" !! can be heard for a number of reasons, penal and election ones included. Off course, they bloody well hate the SIngaporeans for buying their companies, but that's what you get when you vote for Thaksin haha
B4 1982.......... Better training/More Planes
1982 to 1986... Better planes/doctrine/learn from the best
1987 to 2007... RSAF total system capabilities fight/combined arms
2007 onwards.. 3G SAF
3G SAF means tighter sensor shooter integration to enable precision deep strike with an economy of effort from a range of strike package choices.
Therefore looking at RSAF's growth as a case study, IMHO, it is important to marshal Malaysia's defence spending, by making sure each platform purchased continues to contribute to MAF's capability throughout it's life cycle.[/QUOTE]
Singapore's Strategy is simple. Pre-emptive Strike with minimal effort from a range of choices. That is what you said in summary.
Malaysia's strategy is simple. Economic Development first, coz we're a bigger country, so much more ground to cover
And maintain the Military optimum for REAL defence of the country. From any strike. Indonesia's strategy is even more simple. Maintain a 1 million plus Human wrecking ball like the Laskar Jihad for instance, and the armed forces to guide them.
And Vietnam's strategy is,.....send them sexy girls first
And China is............look for weaknessess, determine the price, then buy them off.
And India is, keep a very close eye on Pakistan and Tibet. And get Malaysia on the Indian Ambit together with Indonesia, after all both countries share a deep history with India.
And Saudi Arabia's strategy is, give them Osama and Wahhabism
And Australia, their attitude is: "We're so happy to play Sheriff here, anything for you Uncle Sam"
And the US of A. "Brothers, we got Palau and Guam, and we're here in the Phillipines, so for you haters out there, you can kiss my....."
And as for East Timor, "Ordem e Progreso", Let's Samba, and as for the PNG, well, their attitude is far more insular owing to a lack of financial resources.
And finally the Thais. " We want Thaksin" !! can be heard for a number of reasons, penal and election ones included. Off course, they bloody well hate the SIngaporeans for buying their companies, but that's what you get when you vote for Thaksin haha
Dear nevidimka and Mr Ignorant,
Thank our for both your replies.
On a personal basis, I prefer the look of Su-30 and I like it's long legs. I think the latest F-16 looks obese... not sexy anymore.
Mr Ignorant's, when I read your reply, I had to laugh out loud, 'cos you managed to reduce everybody's position into that of a cartoon character. It's so funny because you dished out to everybody - so no one is singled out and there is an element of truth in all of these points.
Let me respond with a "Malaysia Boleh" idea.
I say "Politicians Boleh" - some MY politicians secretly love SG. Must blame SG (for being kia su) - otherwise how can the corrupt politicians buy MBTs and fighters that the MY armed forces don't want. These are really clever schemes to ensure that their cronies get their cut first. And buy what MAF needs most last - the helicopters. :nutkick
off topic below... enjoy...
No need to keep increasing ERP (Everyday Rob People) and GST (Govt. Salary Tax) - recession lah! SG should spend less on defence so that our over-paid ministers can still get their bonus. (SAF's annual budget is over S$8b + over S$400 m on defence R&D)
But jokes aside, I'm sure that all mature Singaporeans believe in peace. We are too busy at work in the office trying to keep our jobs (I'm relying now because I'm free and on 1/2 day MC - sick also must show face otherwise first one to go...). SG so expensive, buy things 7% GST, drive around get rob by ERP machine.
Thank our for both your replies.
On a personal basis, I prefer the look of Su-30 and I like it's long legs. I think the latest F-16 looks obese... not sexy anymore.
Mr Ignorant's, when I read your reply, I had to laugh out loud, 'cos you managed to reduce everybody's position into that of a cartoon character. It's so funny because you dished out to everybody - so no one is singled out and there is an element of truth in all of these points.
Let me respond with a "Malaysia Boleh" idea.
I say "Politicians Boleh" - some MY politicians secretly love SG. Must blame SG (for being kia su) - otherwise how can the corrupt politicians buy MBTs and fighters that the MY armed forces don't want. These are really clever schemes to ensure that their cronies get their cut first. And buy what MAF needs most last - the helicopters. :nutkick
off topic below... enjoy...No need to keep increasing ERP (Everyday Rob People) and GST (Govt. Salary Tax) - recession lah! SG should spend less on defence so that our over-paid ministers can still get their bonus. (SAF's annual budget is over S$8b + over S$400 m on defence R&D)
But jokes aside, I'm sure that all mature Singaporeans believe in peace. We are too busy at work in the office trying to keep our jobs (I'm relying now because I'm free and on 1/2 day MC - sick also must show face otherwise first one to go...). SG so expensive, buy things 7% GST, drive around get rob by ERP machine.
Last edited:
Mr Ignorant
New Member
Admin: Text deleted. Change your approach and read the rules about posting behaviour. Flaming and baiting will not be tolerated. If you want to talk politics then do it elsewhere
You know what I think, Malaysia has a lot of weaponry. I mean we have a lot of guns in our National War Stock, it's silly. We have M16s, Steyrs and now M4 Carbines not too mention the dodgy HK33s and defunct Berettas AR70s.
As per our NURIs, you think we're going to be like the Maori's and put those choppers on display??? No way, we're going to move them to the Army, all 40 of them.
Right now, everything is on hold. We're not going to buy anymore SU30s, we're currently doing very well with what we have. Thales is building an air defence network, so everything is ok Brudder
You know what I think, Malaysia has a lot of weaponry. I mean we have a lot of guns in our National War Stock, it's silly. We have M16s, Steyrs and now M4 Carbines not too mention the dodgy HK33s and defunct Berettas AR70s.
As per our NURIs, you think we're going to be like the Maori's and put those choppers on display??? No way, we're going to move them to the Army, all 40 of them.
Right now, everything is on hold. We're not going to buy anymore SU30s, we're currently doing very well with what we have. Thales is building an air defence network, so everything is ok Brudder
Last edited by a moderator:
Mr Ignorant
New Member
Yes, the NURI's are going to be moved to the Army. That is the plan, according to the latest news reports. The Cougars will be bought in tranches to lessen the imbalance. The first batch of 12 Cougars have been agreed on, and there might be further orders, although I don't see this happening anytime soon.
Admin: Text deleted. 1st Warning issued.
Admin: Text deleted. 1st Warning issued.
Last edited by a moderator:
Warning to all.
Any posts that start up on Nationalistic nonsense will be pulled or deleted immediately.
Repeated offences will earn warnings and then a potential banning
Any posts that start up on Nationalistic nonsense will be pulled or deleted immediately.
Repeated offences will earn warnings and then a potential banning
The Opposition has asked for a probe on the Eurocopte dal. Its alleged that the deal is being done through inflated prices yet again....
The deal is for RM 2.3 billion, although it is alleged that the deal could have been done through another firm and save up to RM 1.5 billion.
So the deal may still be canceled.
The deal is for RM 2.3 billion, although it is alleged that the deal could have been done through another firm and save up to RM 1.5 billion.
So the deal may still be canceled.
the other firm offered Kazan-M172 (from Kelowna Flightcraft Ltd ), while the signed deal offered EC-725 from Eurocopter.
try to google and wikipedia for Kazan M172 but found nothing. anybody have spec and jpeg of the copter?
this is a nice blog about the helicopter deal
http://ktemoc.blogspot.com/2008/10/eurocopter-cougar-deal-malaysiakinis.html
Hmm I didnt know that, I thought they were for the same aircraft. No wonder the numbers for the deal between the 2 doesn't look realistic.
The Kelowna M 172 is actually a joint venture between BAE system's, Kelowna flightcraft ( Canadian company) and Kazan plant of Russia to jointly market a westernised version of the Russian Mi 172.
http://defence-data.com/f2002/pagefa1098.htm
It looks just like the Mi 172.
It is called the Mi-17KF. The platform itself is a Mi-17 from Kazan. It is agent by Kelowna. Kelowna will fit the aircraft with westernise avionics and other addon. It is now proposed as a supplement of the Canadian CH-47.
Mr Ignorant
New Member
Admin. Text deleted. You seem to think that ignoring a Mods request and filtering it back into the debate is acceptable. It's not. 1st Warning issued
The Opposition would ask for a probe on each and every single acquisition the Government has made over the last 40 years. It doesn't help that the DAP is the offshoot of the PAP, or that politics consistently muddies the waters when it comes to defence procurement. And that is why, we Malaysians, have on the face of it, a very strange looking airforce. Absolutely nothing is uniform or homogenous about it, with the exception of the A4 Skyhawks we purchased in the 70s and the F5s we invested in the 80s. And the RMAF received these aircraft in large numbers.
However, I think, the RMAF is at an optimum level at the moment. The Mig 29s and the F/A 18Ds are now, more or less, soon to be obsolete with the emerging Lightning II as the next generation Air Superiority Aircraft. I believe the RMAF should be able to maintain these types until 2020 or so, where they could be mothballed, or scrapped.
The future is SU30 MKMs, heavy class, Air Superiority Fighters, and perhaps, a case could be made for the purchase of one more squadron of 18-24 SU 30MKM fighters.
But for Close Air Support, the RMAF could just revert to their motley collection of Hawks, and maybe perhaps purchase another squadron of Hawk 200s. It's a pity that the Harrier GR7 or GR9 was never considered in the first instance, these would have been perfect for the RMAF but we have to live with KL's scatter brain approach.
For modernity, the RMAF have confirmed the purchase of 4 AWACs Aircraft (I don't know the class or type but if you google this on the net, you maybe able to identify which).
Again, if more CAS was needed, then Embraer's Super Tucanos look perfect as an option. Light, fast, and it packs a punch. Or more Hawks.
Suggestions anyone??
The Opposition would ask for a probe on each and every single acquisition the Government has made over the last 40 years. It doesn't help that the DAP is the offshoot of the PAP, or that politics consistently muddies the waters when it comes to defence procurement. And that is why, we Malaysians, have on the face of it, a very strange looking airforce. Absolutely nothing is uniform or homogenous about it, with the exception of the A4 Skyhawks we purchased in the 70s and the F5s we invested in the 80s. And the RMAF received these aircraft in large numbers.
However, I think, the RMAF is at an optimum level at the moment. The Mig 29s and the F/A 18Ds are now, more or less, soon to be obsolete with the emerging Lightning II as the next generation Air Superiority Aircraft. I believe the RMAF should be able to maintain these types until 2020 or so, where they could be mothballed, or scrapped.
The future is SU30 MKMs, heavy class, Air Superiority Fighters, and perhaps, a case could be made for the purchase of one more squadron of 18-24 SU 30MKM fighters.
But for Close Air Support, the RMAF could just revert to their motley collection of Hawks, and maybe perhaps purchase another squadron of Hawk 200s. It's a pity that the Harrier GR7 or GR9 was never considered in the first instance, these would have been perfect for the RMAF but we have to live with KL's scatter brain approach.
For modernity, the RMAF have confirmed the purchase of 4 AWACs Aircraft (I don't know the class or type but if you google this on the net, you maybe able to identify which).
Again, if more CAS was needed, then Embraer's Super Tucanos look perfect as an option. Light, fast, and it packs a punch. Or more Hawks.
Suggestions anyone??
Last edited by a moderator:
Mr Ignorant
New Member
I don't think so. Najib is in line to be PM in a matter of weeks. He'll have the devil to pay to save his Premiership and ultimately UMNO in the next four years. The last general elections just took place, and we've all seen the shock results.
I think Najib will approve quite a number of defence projects in the interim, and I am certain he would try to use a sledgehammer approach to the opposition, as soon as he has the reins of power within his grasp.
I mean, if you know the party is going to lose in four years, you will want to make sure you make enough money in the meantime. It is the end of an era now.
I just love Nationalistic Nonsense
Mr Ignorant, do we really need this statement? I'm not going to argue this point - other than to say that it is not true (since 1965) and has no basis in current reality. I've read your other posts elsewhere and you are smarter than that.
In a report, it is estimated that, the cost/flight per hour (see table at pg 7) are as follows:
AWACS/JSTARS US$20,000
E2C Hawkeye US$18,700
Predator US$ 5,000
So operating any airborne surveillance platform (whichever Malaysia chooses) is not cheap. Given the costs and the up coming recession, I agree with nevidimka.
As you might know, in May 2007, Richard Bitzinger published a paper on Chinese military modernisation and the rearming of SEA. It gives a quick overview on the military capabilities in the region. I enclose a link for your reference. I think that is a good starting point to review what Malaysia needs to buy in the future.nevidimka said:
Last edited:
Mr Ignorant
New Member
Admin. Text deleted. You seem to think that ignoring a Mods request and filtering it back into the debate is acceptable. It's not.
Last Warning issued
On to the main point, Malaysia is a resource, and export orientated Economy. The downturn will eventually affect the markets (companies) in the Far East, their economies will contract and you will continue to see this tomorrow at the local Hang Seng, KLSE amongst other bourses. This means we must be conservative in expenditure, but in all honesty, the real ethos of Malaysian politics has disappeared, leaving a leviathan in it's place, ossified in sturcture and behaviour. That just means we can't get rid of the local gravy trains that easily.
The Cougars were meant for the RMAF. It doesn't appear that this deal will follow through now, as Badawi is having second thoughts. ANyway, our Nuris still work, and if it ain't broke, don't replace it. I suppose we'll keep on flying this until common sense prevails and we concentrate on different cost effective products. The Mi 17 looks good as well as the CH47, but both were ruled out in the initial RFI stage. KL or shall we say Putrajaya may well have to revisit their decision.
The Thales deal is still going through as well as the AWACS. I would say that these two acquisitions are pivotal for our Armed Forces. It will change our outlook. I think Malaysia should buy less now. We just cannot afford to engage in a complete rearmament. We have Tanks, Frigates, Fighters, Submarines, Radars and soon, AWACs. Do we need more?
And anyway, China rearming is no news at all. It has ben ongoing in the last 20 years. I doubt if they need that much manpower, but if you're part of a country of 1 billion, i think the figures may appear entirely reasonable. The US is definitely going to stage a comeback in the SEA anytime now. The Phillipines is almost ripe for reinvestment and well, Singapore is friendly, but in all honesty, basing, temporary or permanent will be an issue. A rather short term issue.
Last Warning issued
On to the main point, Malaysia is a resource, and export orientated Economy. The downturn will eventually affect the markets (companies) in the Far East, their economies will contract and you will continue to see this tomorrow at the local Hang Seng, KLSE amongst other bourses. This means we must be conservative in expenditure, but in all honesty, the real ethos of Malaysian politics has disappeared, leaving a leviathan in it's place, ossified in sturcture and behaviour. That just means we can't get rid of the local gravy trains that easily.
The Cougars were meant for the RMAF. It doesn't appear that this deal will follow through now, as Badawi is having second thoughts. ANyway, our Nuris still work, and if it ain't broke, don't replace it. I suppose we'll keep on flying this until common sense prevails and we concentrate on different cost effective products. The Mi 17 looks good as well as the CH47, but both were ruled out in the initial RFI stage. KL or shall we say Putrajaya may well have to revisit their decision.
The Thales deal is still going through as well as the AWACS. I would say that these two acquisitions are pivotal for our Armed Forces. It will change our outlook. I think Malaysia should buy less now. We just cannot afford to engage in a complete rearmament. We have Tanks, Frigates, Fighters, Submarines, Radars and soon, AWACs. Do we need more?
And anyway, China rearming is no news at all. It has ben ongoing in the last 20 years. I doubt if they need that much manpower, but if you're part of a country of 1 billion, i think the figures may appear entirely reasonable. The US is definitely going to stage a comeback in the SEA anytime now. The Phillipines is almost ripe for reinvestment and well, Singapore is friendly, but in all honesty, basing, temporary or permanent will be an issue. A rather short term issue.
Last edited by a moderator: