Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[kato]

There are also the four Lazagas, originally missile attack craft, that will be 30 years old.
Their Exocets were refurbished and put on the Floreals when they were introduced, reducing the Lazagas to patrol duty. Although i think i read somewhere about plans to replace them with new 70m OPVs similar to the OPV-64 introduced 10 years ago.

The other patrol units are relatively new. OPV-64s built in the late 90s, Vigilantes and Osprey-55s from around 1990.

 

[kato]

So what is happening to the P-400's? Are they staying in service doing other roles or are they up for the chop?

To pick the original thread topic back up: I'd say there are likely a number of possible options for the P 400 other than scrapping them.

They are really multi-role units with some organic logistics/cargo capacity.

1) transfer to Gendarmerie. likely too large for them though. Perhaps two replacing the two small Trident PBs.
2) donation to certain friendly small nations. Perhaps two for a Djibouti navy?
3) transfer to secondary duties, such as training (how run-down are the Leopards?) or coastal logistics (e.g. replacing the four BSRs).
4) for at least some: reduction to Public Patrol Duty, replacing the four older small patrol units in the MN.

 

[youpii]

Why not just keep the P400?
MN is actually very busy recently with coast guard missions like fishery control, immigration prevention, narcotics ...

 

[youpii]

Due to the cancellation of many liners at Saint-Nazaire shipyards, MN is likely to receive BPC3 (and maybe BPC4) much faster than planned.
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=109002

 

[swerve]

A chance to get PA2 back on track?

 

[youpii]

The BPC3 order is more and more likely to happen because of Sarkozy's plan to bolster the economy
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=109092
Quite strange to see that the bad economy is actually helping MN.
On the other side, maybe MN would have preferred one more FREMM.

 

[harryriedl]

New issues for GDG this time with the propulsion
Charle de Gaulle: Navy confirms the problems
The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle will be detained "several weeks to several months' after the discovery of a worn pieces on the shafts of the propulsion system, had indicated the Marine National.
The program of activities to the sea "of the vessel was suspended after" the finding of abnormal wear of two mechanical drive lines of trees. The anomaly was detected because of high vibration in propulsion compartment "and" after examination, two pieces of coupling between two of the four turbines of Charles de Gaulle in their rows of trees have proved to be abnormally worn.

Quote:
The Charles de Gaulle stopped because of propulsion problems

It is a blow to the Navy and DCNS, who decided to send the Charles de Gaulle back to her dock. The aircraft carrier was forced to return to Toulon, where she will remain locked for several weeks or months. The Chief of Staff of the Navy has decided to suspend the program of activities Wednesday after the finding of abnormal wear of two mechanical drive lines of trees. "In recent trips to sea, the high vibrations were detected in a compartment of propulsion. Upon examination, two pieces of coupling between two of the four turbines of Charles de Gaulle in their rows of trees have proved to be abnormally worn, "says the Navy. The Staff accurate DCNS, the Navy will "analyze the technical data and conduct tests. To identify the actions and their consequences on the building. The period of detention could last from several weeks to several months. "
This suspension of activity occurs just after the phases of training and operational readiness, which represented the heart of the rising power of the building and allowed the characterization of the air group on board.

Two poorly translated french articles
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=109763
seems GDG has a near constant set of problems to plague it from its protracted build to it difficult commission and a sireces of niggles ever since

 

[Neutral Zone]

What a shambles!

For all the money they've spent building CdG and trying to sort out it's defects they could probably have had 2 conventional CV's!

 

[swerve]

Perhaps, but this problem & the failed propellor are not related to the nuclear propulsion, so I fail to see the relevance of nuclear or conventional.

 

[Neutral Zone]

Well CdG had previous problems with her propellers because the innovative design they used to try and make up for the fact that were using Le Triomphant reactors which were underpowered for the task of moving a CVN, didn't perform as expected. They also had the issue of insufficient shielding, penny pinching? Conventional power is a lot cheaper than nuclear to begin with and when you add in all the extra costs that they've racked up it could well have gone a long way to meeting the cost of a second CV which would have given them a viable carrier fleet instead of one admittedly highly capable ship which isn't always available.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Well the french tried a fairly risky design and are dealing with the problems. While expensives CV's are never cheap, and a pioneering design (which the CDG is) is going to have teathing problems.

Conventional CV's aren't always cheap and easier either, ask India how that is going.

The french really wanted to step up to the next level of carriers, having previously operated fairly conventional types before. Its a learning experience. Experience they can use back in subs, CVN's, and ships.

France is trying to do something that only the US has successfully done before. But there is a big difference when you expect to build 10+ of a class and have near unlimited coin to throw at problems.

In terms of pure capability they may have been better off with just 2x 40,000t conventional carriers with low risk technologies. But it is a peaceful time and france can afford to try new things.

 

[youpii]

Radar for FREDA

I realized that the Italian FREMM carry the EMPAR radar (same as Horizon destroyers) instead of the Herakles on the French FREMM. Wouldn't a FREDA have more detection range with the EMPAR?

 

[StevoJH]

I realized that the Italian FREMM carry the EMPAR radar (same as Horizon destroyers) instead of the Herakles on the French FREMM. Wouldn't a FREDA have more detection range with the EMPAR?

From memory the main difference between the italian FREMM's and the french FREDA is that the FREDA has a long range search radar squished in aft.

 

[harryriedl]

Grim News about CdG it will be in the Yard for a lot longer than expected as they still don't know whats causing the transmission problems.

Charles de Gaulle Carrier: the technical problems are "more complicated than expected"

Sailors have their bad day face, because the latest news from Toulon base are not good. The troubles on one of two lines of transmission on the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, still remain unexplained. "It's more complicated than expected" recognizes the chief of staff of the navy. "We do not have schematics/patterns of the failure. It is not known." Investigations are continuing with the Navy and industrial DCNS. Until further notice, the carrier is stopped at the wharf, when he was in full ascent to power, after eighteen months of work.

Yesterday morning, on RMC, Hervé Morin (Defense minister) said that the detention could last "four to six months." This means that he could not return to sea before the fall. It will have spend a total of two years at dock, which could pose a very serious problem for the training of pilots and crew.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberatio...s-de-gaul.html

 

[Spacearrow99]

Why not just keep the P400?
MN is actually very busy recently with coast guard missions like fishery control, immigration prevention, narcotics ...

The P400 are to light for the high seas patrol role, and the MN wants a heliocopter carrying vessel. So the A69s will replace them from 2011-2017. Well from the French articles I have read, the P400s will be withdrawn from service in 2013. The A69s will replace them, but nothing will replace them in their general purpose role. The MN's 18 vessel BASTIMAR program, is supposed to replace the 10 P400s and 9 A69s. The now P69s would be replace somtime after 2017.The BASTIMAR vessels would be cheap OPVs. The OPVs would be atleast 1000 tons, they would've room for a commando unit, fastboats, and a onbroad heliocopter.

Well the MN, needs to upgrade the Lafayettes with ASW systems. The A69s augmented the ASW frigates role when they weren't unavailable. Room was left for the installation of ASW and upgraded AAW systems on the Lafayettes.

Probable French ASW Frigate allocation
2 per CSG (4 frigates)
2 per AG (4 frigates)
2-3 assigned to the FOST (2 or 3 ASW frigates)
(10-11 frigates in total)

Ordering the 3rd Mistral Class LHD, instead; of a FREMM was a big mistake.

But I think France will to have agree to buy the FM 400 with its first customer, so the French can help pay the R& D costs.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Here are comments from Vice-Admiral Xavier Magne, the Deputy Chief of Staff Operations Naval Aviation

He makes many blunt comments about the Sarkozy governments future naval plans. He says that the MN unable to provide enough ships for the missions assigned to the MN. The situation is so bad that somtimes the MN, has to ask the Elysee Palace for permission to use a ship. Magne says that MN is under equipped for the missions assigned to it. He doesn't like the idea of 2 new Mistrals replacing the Foudre LPDs because the LPDs can carry more than Mistrals.

Assemblée nationale ~ Compte rendu de réunion de la mission d'évaluation et de contrôle

 

[swerve]

What the MN really needs (as well as more destroyers & frigates, another carrier, & some new support ships, obviously), is to keep the Foudres in service alongside the Mistrals, & eventually replace them by a couple of logistic landing ships, i.e. fairly basic, & therefore relatively cheap, LSDs. In the meantime, the Foudres can do what the Bays do in the RN (the Foudres seem well-suited for it), while the extra Mistrals enable Jeanne d'Arc to retire, & add capacity.

 

[kato]

I wonder how two added Mistrals instead of the Foudres would figure into the concept to be able to move the full Troupes de Marines regiment within 3 sorties of the four current ships. Unfavourably, i'd wager.

 

[Spacearrow99]

What the MN really needs (as well as more destroyers & frigates, another carrier, & some new support ships, obviously), is to keep the Foudres in service alongside the Mistrals, & eventually replace them by a couple of logistic landing ships, i.e. fairly basic, & therefore relatively cheap, LSDs. In the meantime, the Foudres can do what the Bays do in the RN (the Foudres seem well-suited for it), while the extra Mistrals enable Jeanne d'Arc to retire, & add capacity.

Well the MN, only has to AAW destroyers, but the FREMM Herakles radar can fire Aster 15 and 30. The MN can upgrade some of the other 9 ASW FREMM, to the FREDA standard, if they need more AAW frigates in the future. The Sarkozy government could've used the 400 million euros to upgrade the La Fayettes, so the MN would've more frigates. But they ordered a 3rd Mistral, this is really stupid because the Foudre are not old, and the 4th Mistral want be delivered until sometime after 2020. The PA2 will be ordered because STX France (Saint Nazaire) is counting on its share of the workload for the PA2. Sarkozy will probably have to announce the launching of the PA2 program next year. STX France is running out of work.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=110296

 

[youpii]

The P400 are to light for the high seas patrol role, and the MN wants a heliocopter carrying vessel. So the A69s will replace them from 2011-2017. Well from the French articles I have read, the P400s will be withdrawn from service in 2013. The A69s will replace them, but nothing will replace them in their general purpose role. The MN's 18 vessel BASTIMAR program, is supposed to replace the 10 P400s and 9 A69s. The now P69s would be replace somtime after 2017.The BASTIMAR vessels would be cheap OPVs. The OPVs would be atleast 1000 tons, they would've room for a commando unit, fastboats, and a onbroad heliocopter.

Well the MN, needs to upgrade the Lafayettes with ASW systems. The A69s augmented the ASW frigates role when they weren't unavailable. Room was left for the installation of ASW and upgraded AAW systems on the Lafayettes.

Probable French ASW Frigate allocation
2 per CSG (4 frigates)
2 per AG (4 frigates)
2-3 assigned to the FOST (2 or 3 ASW frigates)
(10-11 frigates in total)

Ordering the 3rd Mistral Class LHD, instead; of a FREMM was a big mistake.

But I think France will to have agree to buy the FM 400 with its first customer, so the French can help pay the R& D costs.

The area to cover around French islands is very large. Having both A69 & P400 is not that much.

They should upgrade the LaFayette. But I don't think they will.