European Navy

[ASFC]

• Cavour's primary function is ASW with 8 EH-101, correct?
• I have FREMM/FREDA at 2 building, 12 ordered, 7 planned (for France & Italy). Correct?
• No concrete replacement design for Artigliere, Minerva, Aviso yet, right?
  
• How close is the relationship between Sandown and Seguro?
• Argus replacement?

I thought Cavour was the second Aircraft Carrier with secondary Amphib capabilities and would operate as such.

I also make it 21 FREMM/FREDA.

Doesn't Artigliere as modified Lupos (ex-Iraqi) come under FREMM for replacement?

I have always understood the Seguros to be licensed built Sandowns (i'm sure I read as such on Naval-technology.com) but as such I cannot confirm if that is correct atm.

On Argus, Beedalls website* has noted (under JCTS, which is future RN archived) that its Hospital capabilities where to be replaced by two purpose built ships, although the MOD has kept suspending the project. As for its Helo training role, the RN might argue that a second LPH can replace it, but there is no evidence of this. The ship itself recently had a refit taking it to 2020(?) or there abouts so you might be waiting a long time for concrete news on its replacement.

EDIT* I have given up reading that website, is that man ever happy when it comes to the RN?

 

[kato]

Well, there is apparently a replacement need for Artigliere in its patrol role (its primary role at the moment).
Cavour will be multirole of course, but will apparently typically set out with 10-12 Harriers for air defense, 2 EH-101 AEW and 4-6 EH-101 ASW. That gives it a relatively big ASW focus with typical air group when compared to other carriers. Air groups of 12 EH-101 and 8 Harriers have also been thrown around, in particular in the assault role.

The Seguros are somewhat larger than Sandown apparently, although that might come down to additional equipment.

 

[kev 99]

EDIT* I have given up reading that website, is that man ever happy when it comes to the RN?

To be honest, can you blame him? The RN has taken a hammering under this current Government.

 

[ASFC]

To be honest, can you blame him? The RN has taken a hammering under this current Government.

Errr yes, he is worse than the Sunday papers (and half of their scare stories have never come true)!! People fail to realise we still have one of the best navies in Europe and NATO.

I'm not denying there are budget problems, but the fact those problems exist is a purely political decision of the Govt and Treasury, and therefore inappropriate for discussion on a politics free forum!

 

[kev 99]

He might be more pessimistic than the Sunday papers but he's considerably better informed than them and his scare stories have been proved right a number of times. His rhetoric may be a little annoying at the times but his heart is in the right place.

 

[Gladius]

• Any concrete design in Belgium for the Godatia replacement? What about Spain's disarmed and modified Descubierta in the same role, replacement planned?
• How close is the relationship between Sandown and Seguro?
• Any replacement plans for Contramaestre Casado (1953!) in Spain?

Well, I'll try to comment that.

At this moment there is no replacement "officially" planned for the MCCS Diana (M-11) but is very probably that she would be replaced in the future by a MCCS variant of the BAM Class*. But like I said there is nothing publicly released by the Navy about this question.

The relation between the Sandown and Segura is very close. The Bazan B-221 design (Segura Class) is heavily based and inspired in the Sandown design. IIRC the Tech Transfer Accord was signed in July of 1989 with Vosper-Thorneycroft, and after that, the shipyard send some designers and many yard personal to DCN to learn extensively how work with glass reinforced plastics.

AFAIK the Spanish Navy is delighted with the performance of the Contramaestre Casado, in spite of its age. Many times a possible replacement for her has been rumored, but at this moment the Spanish Navy has not reported any plan for its replacement.

* The Spanish Navy plans for the BAM Class are to convert the BAM in the factotum of the Navy developing variants of BAM's for as many roles as be possible. In fact the Navy already confirmed some variants (see pic below) of the many rumored: Oceanic Patrol (4 ordered and up to 8 more planed), Hidrographic/Oceanographic/Polar Research (2 Planned), SAR/Support to Underwater Ops. (1 Planned) Intelligence Gathering (1 Planned). So a MCCS variant of the BAM design is a very probably candidate to replace the Diana (M-11) when the Navy wants.

Image © Colectivo LONTRA (Fotosdebarcos.com)

 

[harryriedl]

Errr yes, he is worse than the Sunday papers (and half of their scare stories have never come true)!! People fail to realise we still have one of the best navies in Europe and NATO.

I'm not denying there are budget problems, but the fact those problems exist is a purely political decision of the Govt and Treasury, and therefore inappropriate for discussion on a politics free forum!

agree their!! he is jobes comforter. also hearing in the news about how the gov is going to move public works forward from 2010 to 2008-09 which could bring forward many mil programs especially ones which require man power.

Kev 99 nice to see you come from that place of cynicism and misery the Warships1 board

yes cut but look at every other navy they have all lost hulls and the RN no different same with aircraft the USN lost the Tomcat the RN lost FA2 economics and age are fearsome things

 

[kev 99]

agree their!! he is jobes comforter. also hearing in the news about how the gov is going to move public works forward from 2010 to 2008-09 which could bring forward many mil programs especially ones which require man power.

Kev 99 nice to see you come from that place of cynicism and misery the Warships1 board

yes cut but look at every other navy they have all lost hulls and the RN no different same with aircraft the USN lost the Tomcat the RN lost FA2 economics and age are fearsome things

Been here a while, just don't post that much.

Yes every Navy is suffering right now, but RN has come a long way down in the last 10 years and I think its incredibly short sighted.

 

[ASFC]

Been here a while, just don't post that much.

Yes every Navy is suffering right now, but RN has come a long way down in the last 10 years and I think its incredibly short sighted.

No it hasn't. All navies (especially European ones) have cashed in the 'peace dividend' since the end of the cold war and it has normally equated to cutting forces by up to a half. It will be seen in years to come that the RN has faired much better than many of their European counterparts. Based on 'First Class Escorts' we have 25. Name a Navy in Europe with 25 'first class escorts' other than the RN. Name a Navy in Europe other than the RN with our Amphib capability. Name a navy in Europe other than the RN which operates 12 Nuclear Submarines (of various capapbilities). Name a Navy in Europe which can match our logistics capabilities. How many navies in Europe will have two 65,000 tonne CVs?

Yes the RN has problems, but which Navy doesn't have its problems? Navy watchers will always complain that the grass is greener 'on the other side' in EU navies or the USN or the PLAN etc, but I bet they all have their own problems as well.

The RN has not come 'a long way down' in the past 10 years. Yes number wise it can look bad, but if having a good navy was all about sheer quantity over quality, the Chinese would be a world naval power by now.

 

[kato]

Russia, on all accounts? (if we count Baltic, Black and Northern Fleet) Though it's getting tight for them as well.

Well, let's put this on a wider scale. Yes, there have been reductions in escort numbers.
However, on a whole, tonnage of this escort fleet basically hasn't changed. Actually, it's significantly growing by now.

Escorts in the WEU:
Above 7000 tons: 2002 - 1 unit; 2008 - 0 units; 2014* - 7 units
Above 6000 tons: 2002 - 3 units; 2008 - 6 units; 2014* - 8 units
Above 5000 tons: 2002 - 2 units; 2008 - 9 units; 2014* - 14 units
Above 4000 tons: 2002 - 58 units; 2008 - 39 units; 2014* - 30 units
Above 3000 tons: 2002 - 54 units; 2008 - 50 units; 2014* - 42 units
Total above 3000 tons: 2002 - 118 units; 2008 - 104 units; 2014* - 101 units
*- estimate

And doesn't even account for the big shift still coming - for 2020, there would be another significant shift "upwards". There's a quite similar shift pattern with submarines btw. And with patrol units for that matter.

 

[kev 99]

No it hasn't. All navies (especially European ones) have cashed in the 'peace dividend' since the end of the cold war and it has normally equated to cutting forces by up to a half. It will be seen in years to come that the RN has faired much better than many of their European counterparts. Based on 'First Class Escorts' we have 25. Name a Navy in Europe with 25 'first class escorts' other than the RN. Name a Navy in Europe other than the RN with our Amphib capability. Name a navy in Europe other than the RN which operates 12 Nuclear Submarines (of various capapbilities). Name a Navy in Europe which can match our logistics capabilities. How many navies in Europe will have two 65,000 tonne CVs?

Yes the RN has problems, but which Navy doesn't have its problems? Navy watchers will always complain that the grass is greener 'on the other side' in EU navies or the USN or the PLAN etc, but I bet they all have their own problems as well.

The RN has not come 'a long way down' in the past 10 years. Yes number wise it can look bad, but if having a good navy was all about sheer quantity over quality, the Chinese would be a world naval power by now.

Of course your right about the capabilities of the RN verses other European navies, although there was only really competition from 1 country in that respect anyway. But do you not feel that losing 10 escorts, 1 aircraft carrier,4 SSNs plus RFA tankers is going a little far, especially as we already had the large scale post cold war peace dividend cuts and a strategic defence review that the Government has since torn to shreds?

Richard Beedals rhetoric can get a little tiring at times but it serves a useful purpose, it provides a counterpoint to the constant media stories calling for all defence spending to go on our current foreign adverntures.

 

[ASFC]

Of course your right about the capabilities of the RN verses other European navies, although there was only really competition from 1 country in that respect anyway. But do you not feel that losing 10 escorts, 1 aircraft carrier,4 SSNs plus RFA tankers is going a little far, especially as we already had the large scale post cold war peace dividend cuts and a strategic defence review that the Government has since torn to shreds?

Its difficult to say. Once the Darings are in service, and if the T22 B3s survive, we will have 23, about half that we had at the end of the cold war. I wouldn't say that losing Invincble is such a great loss, when you consider that one of the QE carriers will have capacity equivilent to 3 invincibles (i'm surprised Labour didn't just say 'sod it, one will be enough to replace current capacity'(!)) The problem with SSN numbers is that until the Vanguards are replaced with (possibly) more multi-role Subs that can do more than nuke Moscow, we aren't going to see the benefit of cutting 1/4 of the Sub fleet and building more capable subs to take up the slack. People (media etc) also forget the Govt require the navy to maintain 6 SSNs at sea for tasking (sorry, i'm struggling to find the Commons report where i read that), so it is diffcult for the navy to put a case for more than 8 SSNs.

I'm struggling to see where the RFA has really seen cuts. At the end of the Cold War, we had what, 3 Fast Fleet Tankers, 5 Rovers, 4 support tankers (I make the 12, correct me if I have missed any) We lost 3 of those, but then gained the Fort (ii) class, to make 11. Granted we currently have 8 (because we lost another three due to AGE), but MARS is going to leave us with 8 pure tankers and another two that are like the current Fort (ii) Class. I am well aware that this is still a reduction, but then the Navy isn't as big as it once was. Similarly its other support functions are being replaced or have bigger ships but less ships (like the Bay class).

It is easy to argue about numbers (and to pollute the European Navy thread, but the RN is maintaining a wide ranging and (generally) well balanced fleet. I agree that the RN could do with more money and have its plans fulfilled, but as I say these are political decisions which are difficult to discuss on a politcs free board!

 

[kato]

I'd add to the RFA issue that the current - and future - tanker fleet are considerably more capable (bigger ships, more payload, more RAS stations etc) than at the end of the Cold War.
Similar issues of course go when comparing the capability of planned aircraft carriers vs anything in service now or in the past 30-40 years.

It's not that dissimilar when looking at other European Navies.
Germany? Lost 75% of the then 40 small combat units, half the submarines and all subchasers and light landing ships, but kept the escort numbers up (1990: 14 + 0 corvettes, 2009 planned: 15 + 5 corvettes, 2020 planned: 11 + 11 corvettes) and significantly gained in support capabilities while losing half the auxiliary fleet (1990: 24 ships, 91.8 kt tonnage; 2008 - 13 ships, 101.4 kt tonnage).
France? Lost one carrier, two SSBNs and all (12) SSKs, but gained two SSNs. Actually gained 6 escorts (although 7 "real" escorts have been replaced by 11 "patrol frigates" and 2 currently building escorts) - but lost 15 corvettes. Gained significantly when it comes to amphibious capabilities. Only marginally lost auxiliaries.

Same thing also for Italy etc pp.

 

[kato]

I've completed the WEU Navy list i mentioned earlier.

[Download Here]

Well, sorta completed. I'm pretty sure there are still plenty of minor errors in there - in particular regarding installed equipment. Lots of data (and, for convenience sake, the format) is directly taken from Andrew Toppan's Hazegray Underway World Navies Today - with the site sadly dying last week or so.
I have updated his data somewhat with the help of Jane's and several other sources.

I have taken some controverse ideas at grouping ships in this piece. For example, i'm listing the Standard, Elli and Bremen classes together for simplicities sake, with notes as to the differences usually. I have also completely omitted reference to which national Navy the ships belong to - fully intended.

Am slowly working towards completing this document for the entire EU - but in particular certain south-east European navies give me a headache in that regard. Well, we'll see what will become of that. :

Please report any glaring mistakes back immediately.

Edit:
Just looked over the whole thing, and guess there's a v2 coming. Somehow the S-70 subs slipped out of it, and i guess one or two items could do with some resorting. I'll also add in the six Saettia Mk 2 of the Guardia Costeria.

 

[kato]

S-70 is in, i'll refrain from adding the large Guardia Costeria units for now and probably assemble a file for the Coastguards at some point (after all, they are separate - and that way i can better mix in non-combatant coastguards).

Btw, anyone know if the Saettia Mk 3 Fincantieri delivered to Malta in 2005 is armed in any way?

 

[gvg]

Yes it is.

The main armament will consist of a fully stabilized and electrical driven 25-mm OTO-Breda cannon.

Source

 

[gvg]

Some different data about Dutch ships (and only data on what is different).
All data from the Dutch MoD website or the Dutch navy website, unless noted otherwise.
Most notable differences: you have the old A801 Pelikaan in your list and are missing HNLMS Van Kinsbergen, a training ship (the last 2 in my list).

You'll have to see for yourself what you want to do with it or if you want to do something with it at all.

(your data between the brackets)

Johan de Witt:
Displacement: 15,500t (16,160)
Dimensions: 176 x 29 x6 (176.6 x 26.4 x 5.1)
Aviation: 6 NH-90 or 6 Chinooks (6 NH-90 or 4 EH-101)
Well Deck: 4 -6 landing craft (2 LCU) (my note: AFAIK 4 LCU or 6 LCVP)
Armament: .50 mm (4 20mm)

Rotterdam:
Displacement: 12,750t (12,000)
Dimensions: 166 x 27 x 6 (160 x 25 x 5.9)
Propulsion: 2 diesels (4 diesels)
Crew: 130 (113-127)
Aviation: 6 NH-90 or 6 Chinooks (6 NH-90 or 4 EH-101) (my note: AFAIK the Chinooks are too heavy to operate from the Rotterdam)
Well Deck: 4 LCU or 4 LCVP (4 LCU or 6 LCVP) (my note: AFAIK you are right)
Troops: 604 (600)
Cargo: 32 tanks and 90 YPR and 1 Patriot battery (170 armored personnel carriers or 30 tanks)
Armament: .50 mm (4 20mm)

Walrus class:
Dimensions: 68 x 8.5 x 7.5 (67.73 x 8.4 x 7)
Crew: 50 (55)
Armament: my note: the Dutch only have Mk 48 torpedoes (20 Mk 48 or NT-37 torpedoes, mines, Harpoon SSM)
The boats will be getting an overhaul in 2011-2018 (These boats will be given a midlife overhaul starting circa 2009/2010.)

Zeven Provinciën class:
Displacement: 6,050t (6,044)
Dimensions: 144 x 17 x 7 (144.2 x 17.2 x 5.2)
Armament: Mk 46 torpedo (4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes)

M-class (or Karel Doorman class, but M-class is the official name in Dutch):
Displacement: 3,300t (3,320)
Dimensions: 122 x 14.4 x 6.2 (122.25 x 14.37 x 6.05)
Aviation: my note: the Dutch and Belgian M's will be converted to handle the NH-90, one Belgian M has already been converted. They can carry 2 Lynx and I thought also 2 NH-90s in the (converted) hangar, but usually have only 1. (1 Sea Lynx helicopter)
Armament: Mk 46 torpedo (4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes)

Holland Class:
2010-2013 (2009-2012)
Holland
Zeeland
Friesland
Groningen

Tripartite class:
Displacement: 543t (595)
Dimensions: 51.5 x 8.9 x 3.8 (51.6 x 9 x 3.5)
Propulsion: 13 knots (15 knots)
Crew: 33-38 (55)
Sonar: 2 PAP 104 MNV or 26 Seafox (DUBM 21B minehunting, 2 PAP-104 ROV)
Armament: 3 x .50 (1 20 mm, 2 12.7 mm)

JSS (JLOS) (source: article written by someone in the Defence MAterial Organization for the Foundation of Navy Officers):
Troops: 125 (-)
2x LCVP, but no well deck. (-)
negotiating with Damen Schelde at the moment (ordered)

Improved Poolster class:
Displacement: 16,900t (17,357)
Crew: 190 (173)
Aviation: 2 Lynx (3 Sea Lynx)
Armament: 2x .50 mm (5 20mm)

Amsterdam:
Displacement: 17,040t (17,050)
Dimensions: 166 x 22 x 8(175 x 23.7 x 8)
Crew: 160(161)
Aviation: 4 Lynx or 3 NH-90 (2 helicopters)
Cargo: 6,700 dieselfuel, 1,660 aviation fuel, 500 cargo = 8860 (10,300 tons)
Armament: 2x .50 mm (2 20mm)

Snellius class:
Displacement: 1,875t (1,800)
Dimensions: 75.0 x 13.1 x 4.0 (75 x 12.8 x 4)
Propulsion: 12 knots (-)
Crew: 18 (12 + 30 mission crew)

Mercuur:
Displacement: 1,400t (1,500)
Dimensions: 64.8 x 12 x 4.3 (-, only in feet)
Propulsion: 2 MAN 6L-20/27 diesels (Diesel-electric)
Crew: 18 (12 + 30 mission crew)
Armament: 1 underwater torpedotube for Mk 48 (2 12.7 mm MG, 2 21 inch torpedo tubes, 1 triple 12.75 inch TT)

Pelikaan
Displacement: 1,100t (710)
Dimensions: 65.4 x 13.2 x 4 (-, only in feet)
Propulsion: 2 x Caterpillar 3516 BTA diesels, 14.5 knots (2 diesels, 10 knots)
Crew: 13 (15)
Troops: 64 (49)
Armament: - (2 12.7 mm MG)
Newly built (Converted oil rig support tug)
Year: 2006 (1984/90)

Van Kinsbergen Training Ship (sources: Navy Inside and MoD)
Displacement: 600t (-)
Dimensions: 41.5 x 9.2 x 3.3 (-)
Propulsion: 2 diesels, 2 shafts and an electric bow thruster, 12.8 knots (-)
Crew: 5 students, 5 teachers (-)
A902 Van Kinsbergen 1999

And all Dutch ships have their homeport in Den Helder, except Pelikaan, which is stationed in the Netherlands Antilles permanently.

 

[kato]

Alright, thanks, i'll work that in.

 

[bd1]

Kato - at first glance : 3 of the first-built Sandown´s to Estonia , don´t know how many Tripartite´s Latvia will end with.

 

[Gladius]

Reading the list I spot some issues with a few Spanish Navy units.

· The last Baleares Class frigate: "Asturias" (F-74) is listed by Kato, but was decommissioned the last 5th of November (Resolution 600/19620/2008 of November 5th, published in the Official Defence Bulletin of November 27th).

· The Barcelo Class patrol ship: "Acevedo" (P-15) is listed by Kato, but was decommissioned the past 17th of November (Resolution 600/19973/08 of November 17th, published in the Official Defence Bulletin of December 3rd).

· The third Alboran Class (Freire 311) fisheries patrol ship: "Tarifa" (P-64) is absent in the list of Kato, so should be added. The Tarifa was launched the 11th of November 2003 and commissioned the the 22 of June of 2004.

· The newest AOR for the Navy: "Cantabria" (A15) is absent in the list. The ship being built by Navantia, was launched the last 21 of June, and will be commissioned during 2009.

· The Castor Class of hydrographic ships is also absent. The first two ships of the class: "Castor" (A-21) and "Pollux" (A-22) were decommissioned some years ago, but the last two: "Antares" (A-23) and "Rigel" (A-24) remain active.

· The Alerta EW support ship is listed as Ex-????? Well... IIRC the "Alerta" (A-111) was the Jasmund when he was in service with the Navy of the GDR.

· The vehicle cargo ship: "El Camino Español" (A-5) is another absent of the list. The ship was commissioned the 9th of January of 1999.

· The "Las Palmas" (A-52) is listed as a Fleet Tug like his twin "Mahón" (A-51). But that is wrong, because the Las Palmas was converted in 1988 into a Polar Survey Ship, and later again overhauled (in the 90s) to serve better as Oceanographic & Polar Research Ship. Some time ago the ship was officially reclassified as B.I.O. (Buque de Investigación Oceanográfica) by the Spanish Navy.

· The Rescue Ocean Tug: "La Graña" (A-53) [Ex-Punta Amer] is nowhere in the list. The tug was commissioned the 1st of September of 1993.


PS: I didn't quoted the data specs. of the ships/classes mentioned in this post to prevent the cluttering, ask me for the data of any if there are problems to find it.