European Navy
- Thread starter supermachiner
- Start date
I dunno, i just stumbled across it and thought it was a rather good overview. But im no naval expert.
The Norwegian navy focus that they are multirole, but with a special focus on anti-submarine warfare...
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yes, I realize that it was not something you had made. I was puzzled about the classification, though.
That is also my understanding. They are some of the very best ASW frigates out there, but are not really AAW ships, despite having AEGIS as the CMS. Too few VLS cells (and perhaps a too modest radar as well?).
I really think ships, unless part of a carrier task force, is just large slow targets.
subs is the way to go if you dont have money/political will to build an aircraft carrier.
I think german and swedish subs can take care of things in baltic, and they will not need or even want to be part of an european task force.
subs is the way to go if you dont have money/political will to build an aircraft carrier.
I think german and swedish subs can take care of things in baltic, and they will not need or even want to be part of an european task force.
Carrier task forces are just a fraction of the world's needs in navies. A larger percentage of countries get along just fine without aircraft carriers as their navies' mission is sovereign protection which is mainly littoral in nature. They use land based air assets to support their fleet. It would also be a waste of money and resources for supporting an aircraft carrier.
A single Frigate or Corvette will get the done of establishing presence and at far better prices. Even an OPV such as the HMS Clyde remains forward deployed in the South Atlantic in the Falkland Islands area.
While SSKs have their place in numberous navies, they too are an expensive system to maintain relative to a surface fleet which fulfills a far great number of missions and tasks than a submarine.
Bottom line, is that a country's navy should be configured to mission requirements to support it's national needs and objectives.
Well, a quick look at 10-15 years in the future...
Frigate/destroyer (3000+ ton) numbers in the European Union as likely sometime at the end of the next decade (total: up to 113)
** - up for replacement by then
EU SSN forces, medium term plans (total: up to 18)
EU SSK forces, medium term plans (total: around 31)
Frigate/destroyer (3000+ ton) numbers in the European Union as likely sometime at the end of the next decade (total: up to 113)
- Belgium : 2 M-Class**
- Denmark : 3 PS, 2 FS
- France : 2 Horizon, 17 FREMM*, 5 Lafayette
- Italy : 2 Horizon, 10 FREMM
- Germany : 3 F124, 4 F123, 4 F125
- Greece : 4 Meko 200HN, 8 FREMM*
- Netherlands : 4 LCF, 2 M-Class**
- Poland : 2 OHP**
- Portugal : 3 Meko 200PN**, 2 M-Class**
- Romania : 2 Type 22**
- Spain : 6 F100, 6 F80
- United Kingdom : 6 Type 45, 8 S2C2 C1*, 6 S2C2 C2*
** - up for replacement by then
EU SSN forces, medium term plans (total: up to 18)
- France : 6 Barracuda
- United Kingdom : 7 Astute, 5 Trafalgar*
EU SSK forces, medium term plans (total: around 31)
- Germany : 6 Type 212A
- Sweden : 3 Gotland*
- Italy : 4 Type 212A, 2 Longobardo*
- Greece : 4 Type 214
- Poland : 4 Type 207*,
- Netherlands : 4 Walrus*
- Spain : 4 S-80
gncantonio
New Member
should consider 2 SSK U209 PN(U 214) for the portughese navy by 2010
supermachiner
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
the russian fleet was just an example of a possible future threat as this is all hypothetical. there could be a number of different emerging threats.
Personal opinion:
Europe could need a new escort unit. Not a CSG/ARG escort or the like, but a wartime merchant marine escort that could function in an extended patrol role with asymmetric capabilities in peacetime. Sorta like the old Wielingen.
Say a 2000-2500 ton basic frame, only baseline AAW/ASW/ASuW outfit (8-cell VLS with 32 ESSM, sonar w/4 torpedoes, quad NSM or the like), standard gun outfit; single helo support, very basic modularity, full ocean seaworthiness.
Could, within European navies, (cheaply!) replace about 30-40 older ships used with similar purposes that would be up for replacement around 2020. Talking mostly about the Meko 200s, OHP derivates, M-Class, Type 22s; and could even be used as a baseline for e.g. the C3.
Europe could need a new escort unit. Not a CSG/ARG escort or the like, but a wartime merchant marine escort that could function in an extended patrol role with asymmetric capabilities in peacetime. Sorta like the old Wielingen.
Say a 2000-2500 ton basic frame, only baseline AAW/ASW/ASuW outfit (8-cell VLS with 32 ESSM, sonar w/4 torpedoes, quad NSM or the like), standard gun outfit; single helo support, very basic modularity, full ocean seaworthiness.
Could, within European navies, (cheaply!) replace about 30-40 older ships used with similar purposes that would be up for replacement around 2020. Talking mostly about the Meko 200s, OHP derivates, M-Class, Type 22s; and could even be used as a baseline for e.g. the C3.
Nah, the Nansen is a bit more ASW-specific. Plus Aegis is a way too pricey CMSYou more or less quoted the Nansen-class specs
I'm not that fixated about the armament itself anyway. Mostly, it should be a "baseline" configuration, pretty much self-defence for all aspects.
I think you're setting the size far too low. I think Danish Absalon is closer for what would be good for future, what would be required would be a large mission bay area for commando troops, drones etc, enough hangar space for a couple of large helos etc.
If the threat would require it, the basic seaframe would have enough space for retrofitting a large number of VLS cells, enough energy for large radar or even an EM-gun etc. In case of threat level increase, what could be done for small combatant? Not very much.
Even more importantly, only a large ship will be able to utilize the various drone and small craft capabilities extensively.
Well, i think that more recently, frigate sizes have been driven up insanely.
My view of cheap isn't a 300 million multi-mission frigate, but a 80 million pure escort.
Not looking for anything with a commando carrier role, there are enough other ships for that. Neither for something with a wartime littoral warfare (support) role, or a designated taskforce "missile carrier".
As i stated, self-defense only. Something that fits the classic (!) definition of a frigate.
Escorts like that in large numbers (!) are really missing today, and would still be important to protect trans-oceanic sea routes in wartime.
My view of cheap isn't a 300 million multi-mission frigate, but a 80 million pure escort.
Not looking for anything with a commando carrier role, there are enough other ships for that. Neither for something with a wartime littoral warfare (support) role, or a designated taskforce "missile carrier".
As i stated, self-defense only. Something that fits the classic (!) definition of a frigate.
Escorts like that in large numbers (!) are really missing today, and would still be important to protect trans-oceanic sea routes in wartime.
I don't know if 80mE will get a frigate, Finnish 250tn Hamina cost 75mE a few years back without being particularly technologically advanced.
A larger ship could be, during this time of deep peace, a single role combatant / patrol ship for LIC's, but a multi role ship during time of Euros flowing into military budget. A 2500ton OPV / escort can defend herself and carry the sensors it is designed for.
For ocean escort role I'm not sure if, say, two 2500ton escorts compared to one 7000 ton escort with drones would be better. In latter case, money permitting, it could be upgraded for area air defense, it could operate larger helos or more helos, drones for ASW etc. In effect, one is not talking just about the reach of the ship and it's sensors but also about sensor network spread by the drones supported by ship.
But of course, without having concrete examples we're both just talking hot air
Sort of like the Spanish Buque de Acción Marítima? Doesn't currently come with VLS, torpedoes, anti-ship missiles or the like, but there's a working deck & space for 3 containers.
Well, sorta, just with weapons and sensors
Sensors would be a hull-mounted sonar (bought en-masse), and a relatively cheap medium-range radar, whole thing tied in with the overall battlespace network.
Effectors - pair of twin or triple ASW torpedo tubes, 4- or 8-cell VLS with 16/32 ESSM, reserved space for wartime mounting of SSM.
The intention wouldn't be to fight off a Bear pack with AShM of course, but against any raiders that make it through the primary lines of defense, the above should be enough. Especially in numbers.
Well yes ... it's currently planned to be a patrol/EEZ protection/civil protection etc. vessel, & equipped accordingly.Well, sorta, just with weapons and sensors
A=I think it's a bit too small for the Thales sensor mast the bigger Dutch patrol vessels are getting, but perhaps a cut-down & cheaper version of that would fit your proposed vessel.