Royal New Zealand Air Force

[swerve]

Afghanistan is getting its 18 refurbished G.222s for USD287 million, i.e. USD16 million each. That includes two "VIP modules" for fitting into otherwise standard aircraft, initial spares, manuals, associated ground equipment & 3 years of support. First delivery next year, last in 2011.
Article - in Italian.

Other reports say they'll have updated avionics, & the manuals will be supplied in both English & Dari.

With no VIP modules, less technical support & manuals only in English, the price should be a bit lower.

 

[greenie]

Wow ,only 16 mil each or cheaper,concidering that they would be rebuilt and fittered with a similar panel layout as the referbished C130s would make an easy transition aircraft if used for training and operations.
Its hard to believe that in the 80s we had 5 C130s, 10 Andovers, 2 friendships,2 B727 , 3 C421s all in various sqns for transport , today the AF is as busy,if not more ,operating only 12 platforms,5 tactical instead of 15, (previously 21 !!!!!).
No wonder its so hard to get a SATS flight to Auckland.

 

[Todjaeger]

Time for a silly Idea, Alenia has just rebuilt and sold 18 G.222 aircraft to the Afgan AF , they apparently have 8 more sitting there and spares, we never replaced the HS Andovers and the Beech replacement is due , I bet they could be scored for a real good price, anything that frees up the C130 and maybe lenthen out there life has to be good.
Also the navy is soon going to be in a postion were it is going to need to move around nz and the pacific the crews for its patrol boats so a cheep to run aircraft with short field performance would be high on my list.

AFAIK one of the roles the King Airs fufill is transition training from single to multi-engine aircraft. Not being a pilot I do not know this for certain, but I would imagine that a G.222 would be a bit much in terms of aircraft performance and handling, nevermind training costs, to use as the transition training aircraft.

However, the G.222 could certainly ease some of the burdens the C-130s have in moving personnel and equipment around NZ. I do not think it could be easily used away from NZ proper given the relatively short legs the G.222 has for the Oceania/South Pacific region. If the price was 'right' then it could very well be a stea, particularly if the aircraft could then be converted into the C-27J Spartan or a near equivalent.

-Cheers

 

[greenie]

AFAIK one of the roles the King Airs fufill is transition training from single to multi-engine aircraft. Not being a pilot I do not know this for certain, but I would imagine that a G.222 would be a bit much in terms of aircraft performance and handling, nevermind training costs, to use as the transition training aircraft.

However, the G.222 could certainly ease some of the burdens the C-130s have in moving personnel and equipment around NZ. I do not think it could be easily used away from NZ proper given the relatively short legs the G.222 has for the Oceania/South Pacific region. If the price was 'right' then it could very well be a stea, particularly if the aircraft could then be converted into the C-27J Spartan or a near equivalent.

-Cheers

Prior to the Beech aircraft pilots did there multi training on the andovers ,and that was one heavy AC to train on , the prob is that the beech replacement ( if done properly) will have to where many hats,compromise is a horrible thing when it comes to millitary hardware .
The G222 has a book range of 2500 Nm , more than enough Id say.

 

[Todjaeger]

Prior to the Beech aircraft pilots did there multi training on the andovers ,and that was one heavy AC to train on , the prob is that the beech replacement ( if done properly) will have to where many hats,compromise is a horrible thing when it comes to millitary hardware .
The G222 has a book range of 2500 Nm , more than enough Id say.

I agree that whatever replaces the King Air will likely have a number of roles and the Andovers were not exactly small aircraft. One thing to keep in mind though is what roles the King Air replacement will be used for primarily. Even if the G.222s can be purchased at borderline - Grand Theft, Aircraft prices, I would imagine it would be a relatively expensive aircraft to fly for mostly training missions or to transport small numbers of personnel.

Keep in mind that the King Air B200s as currently configured can transport ~5 passengers and the MTO is 5,760kg. On the other hand, the G.222 can transport ~53 people or carry ~9,000kg in cargo. If the mission is to provide multi-engine flight time to a student pilot, or if someone in government needs transport from North Island to South Island the G.222 likely would not be as efficient per flight-hour/fuel or person transported/fuel when compared to something smaller and lighter. What might do would be a purchase of Bombardier Dash 8s, these being similar in size to the Andovers. I would imagine that they overall would weigh less than a G.222 since they are not intended to transport heavy or high density cargo, even though they can carry as many or more (depending on variant) people than a G.222 does.

Incidentally, my book listing as a of 700 n miles for the G.222, which is quite different from 2,500 n miles.:unknown

-Cheers

 

[swerve]

Incidentally, my book listing as a of 700 n miles for the G.222, which is quite different from 2,500 n miles.:unknown

-Cheers

That may be with maximum payload. The quoted range with maximum fuel varies depending on source, but I've found figures from 3700 to 4685 km, i.e. 2000 to 2530 nm. None of those I've found say with what payload.

I've seen the C-27J said to have 35% more range than the C-27A. According to Alenia, the C-27J has the following payload/range -
10000 kg/1000 nm
6000 kg/2300 nm
Ferry/3200 nm
That's compatible with 700 nautical miles for the C-27A being with maximum payload, & 2500 nm being maximum range unloaded.

 

[KH-12]

I think it would make sence to purchase a good simulator as part of any aircraft package to reduce the actual expensive airframe time as part of the training commitment as has been done with the A109 deal, if this was the case then going with a more capable aircraft such as the C27J would make more sence, get the trainee upto speed on the sim so that when they hit the real A/C they are good to go (or nearly useful as a right seat pilot), bringing back the Macchi's in the advanced training role would aid this approach.

 

[greenie]

The Dash 8 would be a good aircraft for moving people and light frieght around and prob cheeper to run than the G222 type ,but my long term thoughts are that the c130 replacement will take a loge time to arrive ( if ever now upgraded) and so an aircraft that has the same ,abeit smaller scale, tactical operations / training could stretch the herks life.
Sims for training should be a must for multi training, save engine and prop maintanence heaps.
thank goodness my book on the g222 gave me the right no:s , been a log day

 

[south]

To those proposing to keep the ACF to "expand" in times of need, do you have any idea how much it costs to train and equip such a force. At standard rate of training you will be looking at a minimum of two years to train a student wingman, and more commonly three years. Then it will take another six months to get them to a status where they are actually combat capable.
You dont have the luxury to "train" an ACF if the Sheeet hits the fan.

When taken into consideration the cost to continually upgrade, train and maintain such a fleet is it not in NZ's best interests that the scarce money is spent elsewhere?

Yes the skyhawks WERE cool, very cool even, and the pilots were reportedly excellent, but unfortunately for NZ a WOFTAM.

 

[sappy]

hi, new to the website. :dance2
i've seen some really interesting stuff on this website. i plan to go into the airforce soon. i think that the C-27j would be perfect for the RNZAF as it would free up the C-130s for the bigger tasks kinda like the A109 will do for the NH90 (hopefully they can get some more A109s). anyway i was wondering has anyone got any ideas on the replacements for the B200?

 

[recce.k1]

When taken into consideration the cost to continually upgrade, train and maintain such a fleet is it not in NZ's best interests that the scarce money is spent elsewhere?

If you could control the purse strings, what would you wish to spend the money on instead?

But if defence expenditure was increased, say 25-50%, would such a fleet be viable? Or should the money go to something else, if so, what?

Asked in the interests of healthy debate

 

[KH-12]

hi, new to the website. :dance2
i've seen some really interesting stuff on this website. i plan to go into the airforce soon. i think that the C-27j would be perfect for the RNZAF as it would free up the C-130s for the bigger tasks kinda like the A109 will do for the NH90 (hopefully they can get some more A109s). anyway i was wondering has anyone got any ideas on the replacements for the B200?

Why not ditch the whole intermediate multiengine training aircraft and go straight to the right hand seat in a useful utility a/c like the c27J and learn on the job using a good sim to get up to speed on the aircraft systems/engine out provisions etc. How useful/much fun is circuit bashing Ohakea in a B200 anyway :sleepy2 , could use the A109 for VIP purposes.

 

[south]

If you could control the purse strings, what would you wish to spend the money on instead?

Places where I believe the money has gone, upgrade orions/hercs, new/better frigates (arent the NZ Navy getting significantly lower amount of seagoing time than what they should?), and gear for the Grunts on the ground.


KH-12 - circuit bashing is one of the hardest things that you can do in an aircraft, if you are striving to get it accurate and consistent. It builds handling skills, capacity, experience and judgement.

If you ditch intermediate training and go straight to the right hand seat, all you are doing is pushing the training burden further along to more expensive platforms that actually have a job to do, and you end up with a bunch of copilots who are of no use in an operational role for a longer period of time (No Return on Investment for longer). Further more there often isnt capacity in the squadrons to support additional training, especcially in the current climate where they are worked to the bone.

The RNZAF may be at a disadvantage here in using CT4E's as their primary trainer. It doubt it is enough of an aircraft to get guys to the required level for the larger aircraft, hence the intermediate Kingair.

 

[KH-12]

I was being somewhat provocative but it would be interesting to see if a similar level of proficiency can be obtained in a simulator environment versus an actual aircraft (B200 class), there is always going to be that problem of when you convert to an operational role at the moment there will be adjustment issues from the B200 to either P3 or C130 (and hence a pilot with limited operational experience in a new aircraft/role, B200 is not suitable for low level cargo extractions for example). Once a pilot gains a degree of proficiency the real benefit of training is in learning to deal with unforeseen eventualities and for this a sim environment is safer/more flexible than an actual aircraft, circuit bashing can breed complacency in a familar environment as well.

I would support the return of the Macchis to extend the training schedule prior to multiengine conversion, gaining flying skills in a fast aircraft at low level is invaluable in my opinion.

 

[south]

I was being somewhat provocative but it would be interesting to see if a similar level of proficiency can be obtained in a simulator environment versus an actual aircraft (B200 class),

there is always going to be that problem of when you convert to an operational role at the moment there will be adjustment issues from the B200 to either P3 or C130 (and hence a pilot with limited operational experience in a new aircraft/role, B200 is not suitable for low level cargo extractions for example).

Agreed but that isnt the point I was trying to make. Converting from a Kingair to a P3 is going to be a lot easier than from a CT4E. The CT4 Doesnt have the complexity of systems, speed, multi engine capability or mass/momentum to replicate the other platforms, whilst a Kingair does. What that means is the intermediate training you propose cutting from a Kingair, will have to be performed on the higher end platform. The end role's are mere extensions of the basics which need to be learnt and consolidated first.

Kingair's within the are used to train and simulate all of the profiles that the navigators are going to perform before being posted to their aircraft type.(FJ/Herc/Orions)

Once a pilot gains a degree of proficiency the real benefit of training is in learning to deal with unforeseen eventualities and for this a sim environment is safer/more flexible than an actual aircraft, circuit bashing can breed complacency in a familar environment as well.

Sim's are excellent for emergency training. I disagree with circuit bashing breeding complacency.

I would support the return of the Macchis to extend the training schedule prior to multiengine conversion, gaining flying skills in a fast aircraft at low level is invaluable in my opinion.

Why do you say this?

 

[Todjaeger]

Places where I believe the money has gone, upgrade orions/hercs, new/better frigates (arent the NZ Navy getting significantly lower amount of seagoing time than what they should?), and gear for the Grunts on the ground.

Umm... No the money did not go into these areas. Currently doing research on the NZDF so that a list of suggestions, or perhaps even a Green Paper can be submitted. However going over the figures the NZDF appears to have historically gotten ~1.8%GDP in real terms. At present, once the GST and Capital Charge are accounted for, the NZDF is receiving somewhere between 0.6-0.8%GDP in real terms. In effect the NZDF is receiving something like a third of the funding it has historically received.

Even with the infusions for Project Protector and other capital purchases promised over time, the numbers in real terms still fall below half the level of historical funding. With this kind of "cash crunch" imposed, it is little wonder that the NZDF has not maintained the same capabilities as it once had.

Time will tell if the decision to cut back defence funding was the correct one.

-Cheers

 

[KH-12]

Agreed but that isnt the point I was trying to make. Converting from a Kingair to a P3 is going to be a lot easier than from a CT4E. The CT4 Doesnt have the complexity of systems, speed, multi engine capability or mass/momentum to replicate the other platforms, whilst a Kingair does. What that means is the intermediate training you propose cutting from a Kingair, will have to be performed on the higher end platform. The end role's are mere extensions of the basics which need to be learnt and consolidated first.

Kingair's within the are used to train and simulate all of the profiles that the navigators are going to perform before being posted to their aircraft type.(FJ/Herc/Orions)



Sim's are excellent for emergency training. I disagree with circuit bashing breeding complacency.



Why do you say this?

Because I believe that the type of flying experience gained by flying a fast jet in tactical environments is extremely valuable and cannot be easily gained in flying a benign commercial turboprop. The Macchis were cut from the advanced pilot training programme for cost reasons not because the skills gained were'nt useful. Flying an aircraft that requirs you to be on top of things makes you a better pilot in the long run.

 

[Todjaeger]

Because I believe that the type of flying experience gained by flying a fast jet in tactical environments is extremely valuable and cannot be easily gained in flying a benign commercial turboprop. The Macchis were cut from the advanced pilot training programme for cost reasons not because the skills gained were'nt useful. Flying an aircraft that requirs you to be on top of things makes you a better pilot in the long run.

With the current RNZAF "force" structure the MB-339s were cut due to not being needed. At present, none of the fixed wing assets in NZ service are useful, nevermind survivable, in a tactical environment, therefore training for that environment is far less important.

I would like to see the MB-339s re-enter service, but that is because of the additional training opportunities the entire NZDF could gain from having a fast jet back in service. Also it would provide some (limited but better than nothing) capabilities like air intercept/escort and CAS/ground attack or training for defending vs. maritime strike. The other reason I would like them to re-enter service would be if that was the opening phase in re-establishing the ACF.

On its own, providing fast jet training to RNZAF pilots who will not be operating tactically in fast jets, or even operating fast jets does not make much sense to me. I do not believe that the applicable skills learned or emphasized could be done more efficiently on the MB-339 than other, multi-engine aircraft. At present, the RNZAF is really only set up to provide surveillance coverage and most especially, air freight and transport.

-Cheers

 

[greenie]

Are the beech being retired because of wear and tear or just the end of the contract?
If it is just a contract issue then why not just keep them going as the training AC . The MB339s should be brought back into the wings program ,then moving onto the 109 or beech.
I still feel there is a need for the G222 type .

 

[recce.k1]

The King Air's lease has been extended by a couple of years but one of the main issues appears to be the need for an advanced training aircraft featuring a glass cockpit system, bearing in mind all RNZAF aircraft will soon have glass cockpits (except for the CT-4 and Seasprite I believe), thus critical for training on the upgraded C-130 and P-3's etc.

Read the DefMin's press release:
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/...+air+force+replace+advanced+training+aircraft

and see page 48 of the LTDP update 2008:
http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/reports-publications/ltdp-2008.pdf

Note: includes simulator

Hmmm, just realised the short-medium air patrol initiative appears to have dropped off from the LTDP update :? I think then there goes the Q400 or G.222/C-27 possibility eh. Maybe King Air 350's then as the replacement?