Venezuela vs Netherlands

[kato]

None of these territories are covered by the NATO treaty - or rather, they're explicitly excluded.

The only larger European colonies (status-wise) that were covered by the NATO treaty were Algeria and Greenland. Algeria was excluded from the treaty after it ceded from the French Union in 1962.

Official "overseas territories" that are covered by the NATO treaty today are:
- Canary Islands (Spanish)
- Madeira and the Azores (Portuguese)
- Bermuda Islands (British)
- St. Pierre and Miquelon islands (French)
- Greenland and Faroer islands (Danish)

As for the comparison with other colonies - remember that in those cases, there were no allied national interests concerned. It becomes a vastly different issue when more than just the "owner" of the contested territory is concerned. See e.g. the Suez Crisis in 1956 (with its roots in the unilateral cancellation of the British Lease of the Suez Canal from Egypt).
Also, of course, NATO and the EU act far more "jointly" nowadays than 20, 40 or 50 years ago.

 

[swerve]

NATO has never protected a colony. But the Dutch West Indian islands are no longer colonies, & are very different from any colonies which have been attacked. They have military establishments of other NATO members. They are close to EU territories - in one case (Sint Maarten/St. Martin) sharing a small island. They are self-governing democracies (two - Aruba is separate) which have chosen to remain affiliated with the former colonial country, within the same kingdom. And current constitutional debates within the Netherlands & the Netherlands Antilles appear to be leading to integrating at least some of the NA into the EU.

I think it highly likely that at least France, the USA & UK would provide direct military assistance, for all or some of the above reasons, & for their own domestic reasons, & that they would try to influence other NATO & EU members to assist. They would have the total support of small Caribbean countries, especially Guyana, Trinidad & Belize, for their own rather obvious domestic reasons.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks swerve for the explanation. If the status of those territories are no longer simple colonies (like Falkland & West Papua), than it's really different games thus different rules.

Invading semi independent self ruling country, will be very hard to chew even for the guy like Chavez.

Cheers

 

[citizen578]

After a little invstigation i am indeed corrected - the Neth Antilles are beyond NATO's beat, and are (unlike many other European territories in the west indies) not part of the EU's political domain.

However, they are EU-OCTs, and are inhabited by Dutch (and therefore EU) citizens. The EU has a duty and right to protect it's citizens wherever they may be, especially when attacked by a South American nutcase, where the possibility of setting a precedent for other EU territories in the region is just too great to ignore. Clearly, the EU would respond.

However poorly articulated, my original point was that the Netherlands would not be acting alone, but would be enjoying the support of its allies (many of whom would be glad of the excuse to end the ''Chavez Issue''.

 

[kato]

The EU has a duty and right to protect it's citizens wherever they may be

Umm, no? That is something that does not apply to any nation or organization outside its own territory. Although that's more of a political-philosophical question, and rather offtopic.

 

[BuSOF]

Might be a pure speculation, but what do you think about that?
It seems to me that another reason for the 306th RNLAF Squadron to move to the US is that it is easier and faster to deploy them to the Netherlands Antilles from there if a situation occurs.

 

[citizen578]

Umm, no? That is something that does not apply to any nation or organization outside its own territory. Although that's more of a political-philosophical question, and rather offtopic.

Defence is one of the three pillars of the EU. Clearly it does have a right and obligation to protect EU citizens, anywhere in the world. Whether military action is the only/most appropriate way to achieve that can only be a decision made on individual merit.

The Treaty of the European Union details that the EU shall act within the United Nations Charter to...
''to safeguard the common values, fundamental interests, independence and integrity of the Union in conformity with the principles of the United Nations Charter;
to strengthen the security of the Union in all ways;
to preserve peace and strengthen international security, in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter, as well as the principles of the Helsinki Final Act and the objectives of the Paris Charter, including those on external borders;
to promote international cooperation;
to develop and consolidate democracy and the rule of law, and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms.''

The UN Charter alone means that a collective group of nations, whether under the name of the EU or not, may act to secure the freedoms of a population. Many times in the EU's history this has happened, from intervention in the Balkans, to the Royal Navy's evacuation of EU citizens from the Lebanon.

Whilst any 'Second Falklands' scenario in the Caribbean would certainly go beyond the current precedents of operations, it remains a possibility and right of the European Union, and it's individual members.

 

[kato]

Like any other constitutional-level treaty, this does not extend beyond EU territory and EU citizens though.

This directly relates to the explanations above on which Caribbean areas are EU territory, and which are not.

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Btw: The Royal Navy did not evacuate in Lebanon - that was the Marine National, and they initially only took French citizens, then extended this to other EU nationals as a courtesy and to fill the ships.

 

[ASFC]

Ahem......

The RN was in Lebanon, but like everybody else the RN was concerned with UK Citizens first.....

 

[kato]

Yes, but the MN actually evacuated EU citizens during Operation Baliste - as a courtesy. And on an entirely different scale.

 

[ASFC]

I know this is O/T

On a different scale how? The French sent a Transall and Three Cougars, we sent Chinooks and all spare VC-10/Tristar capacity (out of Cyprus). The French sent two amphibs and two frigates. We sent an Amohib, a Carrier, Two destroyers and Vessels of the RFA. Oh and we allowed our Allies to use our Sovereign bases in Cyprus. As far as i'm concerned (asset wise) it was a roughly eqaul contribution.

Now do see why I am just a tad annoyed when people say 'oh, the RN wasn't there, and if they where, it wasn't on the same scale(!)'.

This isn't a 'willy waving' exercise, but comments should be qualified, rather than demeaning the effort that different countries put into (a very difficult) operation. Especially given that it wasn't just France evacuating people, over 20 countries where envolved using different methods of transport.

Getting back to the original point, Lebanon is an example of different countries from around the world (not necessarily under a NATO ot EU flag) acting to ensure that foreigners where evacuated from the conflict zone, regardless of how much or how little effort they put in.

 

[citizen578]

Btw: The Royal Navy did not evacuate in Lebanon - that was the Marine National, and they initially only took French citizens, then extended this to other EU nationals as a courtesy and to fill the ships.

Unless I imagined it, the RN sent a large task force, including several destroyers and frigates, an SSN, the strike carrier Illustrious, and an amphibious group centred on the LPD HMS Bulwark.
I'm not putting down the French, but they were certainly not the only ones involved in the evacuations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_2006_Lebanon_War_by_evacuations_and_aid

Add to this the fact that the British SBA's in Cyprus, especially RAF Akrotiri were central to the multinational evacuations.

This is a fine example of EU cooperation - many nations of the EU acting on eachothers behalf to assure the security of EU citizens - acting outside of the EU, but within the confines and obligations of EU legislation, and the UN Charter.

http://royalnavy.mod.uk/server/sear...conMediaFile/catId[43][]/00300p/currentPage/4