Ukraine Army Orbat

[Feanor]

True. More T-64 then T-80. In fact given the numbers we have, ~2000 T-64, ~1000 T-72, and ~300 T-80, the T-80 are the ones not likely to be tearing through future battles. But given that the manufacturing and maintenance facilities in Ukraine are more available for the T-64 and T-80 types, the T-64 is likely to be the Ukranian MBT for the next decade or so at least.

EDIT: I guess my point is that showing off flashy prototypes that are essentially not in serial production is not a sign of a good military. It seems like many people think along the lines "OMg T-84. Ukraine = win." or "OmG T-95 (or Black Eagle. Russia = win." When really these tanks are in no way indicative of the general situation. If we want to asses the capabilities of the Ukrainian Army then we should look at the types in service, look at what (if any) large scale military exercises have taken place, what kind of funds are devoted to maintenance, and modernization, and the actual troop deployments. I would be quite interested in that kind of analysis, but this thread isn't producing anything along those lines

 

[eckherl]

True. More T-64 then T-80. In fact given the numbers we have, ~2000 T-64, ~1000 T-72, and ~300 T-80, the T-80 are the ones not likely to be tearing through future battles. But given that the manufacturing and maintenance facilities in Ukraine are more available for the T-64 and T-80 types, the T-64 is likely to be the Ukranian MBT for the next decade or so at least.

EDIT: I guess my point is that showing off flashy prototypes that are essentially not in serial production is not a sign of a good military. It seems like many people think along the lines "OMg T-84. Ukraine = win." or "OmG T-95 (or Black Eagle. Russia = win." When really these tanks are in no way indicative of the general situation. If we want to asses the capabilities of the Ukrainian Army then we should look at the types in service, look at what (if any) large scale military exercises have taken place, what kind of funds are devoted to maintenance, and modernization, and the actual troop deployments. I would be quite interested in that kind of analysis, but this thread isn't producing anything along those lines

I actually agree with the Russians when it comes to dedicating armor into a battle, a tank is just a tool, if you do not have everything else in place during a battle it will most likely become a worthless piece of junk. Georgian armor hade some impressive armor upgrades and we see how well that panned out, as a recent example.

The amount of T-64 BM and T-84 upgrades and purchases have been rather dismal, I think Ukraine has only a few hundred Bulants (T-64) that have been upgraded with a around twenty T-84 Oplot purchases. Ukrainian armored and mechanized ground forces are in sad shape due to economy issue`s, and that will not change anytime soon, the same holds true for Russia.

 

[Feanor]

From what I know (my knowledge is rather limited) there is ~31 Bulats. Well the only ORBAT I found was on wikipedia. I'll list them off.

Armored
1st - T-64, T-64BM (31 of them), Tunguska, Kiev MD
17th - T-64B, Kiev MD

Mechanized
24th - with BMP-2 and T-64, Carpathian MD
28th - BMP-2, Odessa MD
30th - high readyness formations (all contract) members served in peacekeeping missions, BMP-2, Carpathian MD
51st - BMP-2 and an unknown tanks (50th independent tank btln) requires 400 reservists to get up to strength - Carpathian MD
72nd - T-64, Kiev MD
92nd - took part in OIF and varous peacekeeping missions, Kiev MD
93rd - BMP-2, Tunguska, T-64B, BRM-1, Igla MANPADS, MT-LB(not sure 100%, based on a photo), Kiev MD
128th - BTR-70, BMP-2, Carpathian MD
300th - Carpathian MD

A note on Ukranian Brigades. Most are of division strength, consisting of 3 mechanized regiments and 1 armored regiment(or vice versa for armored units), and simply being renamed into brigades. And another note, T-64 and T-64B are different in the list I posted. Finally the BMP-1 is in service with several brigades, but I haven't been able to pinpoint them.

Airborne
1st Airborne Division - Odessa MD
25th Airborne Brigade - BMD-1, BMD-2, Il-76, An-70, ZU-32-2
45th Airmobile Brigade
27th Mechanized Brigade (yes it's actually part of the 1st airmobile, even though it's a mechanized unit)
91st Artillery Regiment
95th Airmobile Brigade (independent of the 1st Airborne) - deployments to Iraq, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Carpathian MD
79th Independent Airmobile Regiment - Mi-8, Mi-24, Odessa MD
80th Independent Airmobile Regiment - BTR-80, Iraq deployments, Carpathian MD
EDIT: I'll try to find more info when I have time.

 

[Stimpy75]

Agreed, they are supposed to get a small order of 10 of them with more to follow, armor protection is quite impressive along the hull sides.

Ukraine also ordered 10 BTR-4 from Morozov.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_1144.html?PHPSESSID=d23abe6c1c3c2edba1b7a25cc8ec4fc7

 

[Feanor]

You know come to think of it, it's strange. Ukraine doesn't have any T-72's or T-80's in active service (nevermind T-84). Yet they're selling T-72's from their army stocks abroad. Now I understand taking the T-72 out of service, the production and maintenance for them is concentrated in Russia. But it looks like the T-80's they had aren't in service either. How come?

 

[eckherl]

You know come to think of it, it's strange. Ukraine doesn't have any T-72's or T-80's in active service (nevermind T-84). Yet they're selling T-72's from their army stocks abroad. Now I understand taking the T-72 out of service, the production and maintenance for them is concentrated in Russia. But it looks like the T-80's they had aren't in service either. How come?

Lack of money I would suspect as being some of the reasons, but why they went for T-64s over T-80`s during their initial upgrade phase is quite interesting.

 

[Feanor]

http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/049057052048124056048055054.html

Apparently Ukraine is set to modernize a second T-64 btln to the BM "Bulat" standard. Also serial production of the T-84 is supposed to begin, but no numbers or dates are given. I'm thinking that it's more of a continuation of the previous T-64 modernization, rather then a new program.

I'm curious does anyone here know whether a T-64 baseline (not T-64B) can be brought up to the BM standard? The Ukranian Army employs a mix of T-64 and T-64B.

 

[eckherl]

http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/049057052048124056048055054.html

Apparently Ukraine is set to modernize a second T-64 btln to the BM "Bulat" standard. Also serial production of the T-84 is supposed to begin, but no numbers or dates are given. I'm thinking that it's more of a continuation of the previous T-64 modernization, rather then a new program.

I'm curious does anyone here know whether a T-64 baseline (not T-64B) can be brought up to the BM standard? The Ukranian Army employs a mix of T-64 and T-64B.

Should not be a major issue, the difference between T - 64 A and T - 64 B is that the B model has a uparmored hull and ballistic computer matched up to a laser range finder (LRF).

Here is a upgrade shot that are floating around inregards to T-84, let me just say that to see it in this configuration tells me that they are worried about western advanced KE projectiles. Modern T series turrets just keep getting bigger and bigger.

 

[Feanor]

I thought they had a different main gun? (2A46-1 vs 2A46-2) As well as a different stabilizer (2E26 vs 2E26M) and a different loader (6ETs10M vs 6ETs40).

I believe that the BM upgrade replaces the FCS so that difference would hardly matter. However a different main gun might affest barrel-fired ATGMs (just a guess, I don't really know).

 

[Tavarisch]

Since we're talking about the T-series, does anyone here know how many BM-42Ms and BM-48s are in ACTUAL service? Just asking.

 

[Feanor]

Just a little update, those BTR-4s that were earlier rumored to get purchased (4 years earlier) are finally materializing. Ukraine has just accepted the BTR-4E as having passed state trials. However when and in what quantities it will be purchased remains unclear. The MoD states that they will purchase 10 of them in 2012, and they will enter service with the 13th AirMobile btln, part of the AirMobile forces. As it stands Ukraine owns two prototypes of the BTR-4.

bmpd -

An upgraded BTR-4M variant is planned, with increased mine-protection and other features, but it's still a ways off. Given production difficulties with the Iraqi order, and the desire of Kazakhstan to assemble their batch of 100 BTR-4s in Kazakhstan, I'm left to wonder how realistic it is for Ukraine to acquire the type in any significant quantities. The promise to purchase 10 of them this year hardly inspires confidence, granted, it is rather last minute. It will be interesting to see how many they can produce and buy in 2013.