Venezuela vs Netherlands

[Eggy]

Aside from the military comparisons (which are imo still in favour of the Dutch for now) there is probably the lack of political will to do anything about it. I'm sure the Christian parties won't hesitate to support operations when push comes to shove but I don't know about the labour party.

The dutch are a bunch of appeasers. Just look at how many caveats they put on their troops in Afghanistan, even worse then the Germans.

Again you prove you have no clue what you're talking about. I see in your profile that you're from Australia which makes your ignorance even worse.

 

[swerve]

I do not know about france and the UK because they do have alot of colonial territory's worldwide but as you both already explained for example the Flaklands did not have the protection made by this North Atlantic Treaty.
Perhaps the Netherlands got some special treatment or special set of rules because it was one of the founders of NATO, UN and EU.

So here iam reading your post and reading this treaty this is really confusing.
Can you guys check this out and explain this?

Article 6 -
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

"The Algerian Departments of France" no longer applies, as there are no longer any Algerian Departments of France. Otherwise, that's it. No special rules for any country.

This is the official text from the NATO site, which I provided a link to above.

 

[Beatmaster]

Oke

Then it seems that iam misunderstand the hole thing for that iam sorry.

So this means practicly that the Netherlands Antilles and the dutch goverment is not protected by this treaty or any treaty at all. when it comes to these islands.
In that case it seems to be a copy of the situation like the falklands as you both already said.


Anyway what are you both think about this situation when it actually happens?
I mean what would be a smart thing for the dutch to handle this?
And in your opinion do you think that someone will jump in when it all comes to this?
Because i maintain the believe that the dutch have some pretty good relations with other country's so would there be anyone that acctually going to help? Not with talks but with tanks i mean?


But there is one thing i really like to know because iam visiting this site many times before i did register at the forum and i read so mutch and every time i find you and Kato giving solid feedback where do you get this knowlegd from?

Greetz

 

[Jecito]

Again you prove you have no clue what you're talking about. I see in your profile that you're from Australia which makes your ignorance even worse.[/QUOTE]

Please read this article which explains the caveats and quotes the dutch commander,

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/06/asia/web-0406afghan.php

But rather than advancing for reconnaissance or to attack, the Dutch soldiers pulled back to a safer village. "We're not here to fight the Taliban," said the Dutch commander, Colonel Hans van Griensven, at a recent staff meeting.

The same army that wouldn't fight the Bosnian militia, won't fight the Taliban is somehow going to fight Venezuela???

Yesterday it was reported that Russia may give Venezuela nuclear 'energy' assistance, as well as a $1 billion dollar loan to buy more Russian weapons. Looks like Hugo is going down the North Korea/Iran nuclear path wonder how that changes the equation.

 

[Eggy]

Please read this article which explains the caveats and quotes the dutch commander,

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/06/asia/web-0406afghan.php

But rather than advancing for reconnaissance or to attack, the Dutch soldiers pulled back to a safer village. "We're not here to fight the Taliban," said the Dutch commander, Colonel Hans van Griensven, at a recent staff meeting.

The same army that wouldn't fight the Bosnian militia, won't fight the Taliban is somehow going to fight Venezuela???

Yesterday it was reported that Russia may give Venezuela nuclear 'energy' assistance, as well as a $1 billion dollar loan to buy more Russian weapons. Looks like Hugo is going down the North Korea/Iran nuclear path wonder how that changes the equation.

So you pull one line out of context and base your opinion on that? Wow just wow. Maybe you heard about the battle of Chora? Might be worth a read.

 

[regstrup]

In fact, at the time NATO military and political staff, led by the USA, was actively conspiring in taking away the dual-key decision power from Boutros-Ghali, Akashi and Van Kappen, in order to be able to unilaterally, pre-emptively bomb Bosnian Serb positions.

Or prehaps NATO was just feed up with Boutros-Ghali, Akashi and Van Kappen not taking the nessesary decisions to protect the civilians and NATO's soldiers under the blue helmet from the attacks and harrasments from the Bosnian Serbs.

It could be argued that such strife from certain NATO members was actively preventing any decisive action from being taken in the time after the Pale bombardments.

Yes, it could be argued that, but it is still just an arguement and not nessesarely the truth as you se it.

But enough of the OT

 

[Beatmaster]

@Jecito :lul

There is one part you are right about, that is the Dutch forces are indeed not there to fight they are there to "win hearts and minds" and they try to maintain a safe zone for the local civilians, and to train the local police/forces so that they eventually can protect them selfs and keep law and order.
But because the taliban is attacking the dutchforces and other forces almost every hour with Roadbombs, gunfights, Sniper Attacks and even large scale attacks the dutch are forced to return fire and destroy the enemy.
As long the taliban keeps hidden the dutch forces will not engage them.
Note: The situation above only apply's to normal conditions, because almost every day the troops are put into battle to Search and Destroy Taliban troops and positions.
Also Reconnaissance missions by Air and Land forces are conducted at a regular basis.
So it seems that the Dutch forces in Uruzgan see enough battle. And doing a great job.
Anyway special for you a quote from the NRC news paper: (This is the link its in Dutch so use a translator)

Rotterdam, April 12. Dutch soldiers in Afghanistan have so far deployed 648 times weapons against suspected Taliban fighters. It is likely many hundreds of Afghans lost their lives

This is evident from a survey that the Ministry of Defense at the request of this newspaper has released. The intensity of fighting in Uruzgan has surprised Defense. Outgoing commander of the armed forces Dick Berlin says: "We did not know that we so often and so much would have to fight."

The first Dutch units arrived in the spring of 2006 in Uruzgan. Until last month, with ground forces 327 times since then unloaded shots were Apache combat helicopters in action 136 times and threw F16-hunting aircraft bombs off 185 times.

And this link will tell you all about the dutch battles in Afganistan there are even video's for you just in case you cannot read Click here

Anyway i hope that you finally get it and stop with your stupid posts.:nutkick
But as others said before enough about this because its a Venezuela VS Netherlands topic.

 

[John Sansom]

Swerve is dead on. Let's hope Hugo Chavez is aware that the basic NATO operating creed is, "An attack on one is an attack on all". I'm sure, however, that, if he hasn't read Swerve's post, his new Russsian buddies will suggest that he do so. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have some meaningful Netherland fleet units stopping by for a courtesy call or two (with a couple hanging about offshore at periscope depth). And let's not forget that President Chavez is not really at the top of the popularity standings in his own country. Further more, he's not quite the jolly and insulting buffoon he likes to pretend to be. He has a head on his shoulders...and it works.

 

[Grand Danois]

The probable reason why ABC is mentioned in the signature of the Netherlands is because the Dutch Foreign minister signed as a representative of the Kingdom of the Netherlands - which includes the ABC.

The definition of geographical jurisdiction as per Article 6 (north of the Tropic of Cancer) stands unless additional protocols have been signed, which I am not aware of.

Piccie: http://www.nato.int/pictures/database/large/b00098.jpg

Opening for signature 4-4-1949; Washington
Signature for Kingdom of the Netherlands 4-4-1949

- Kingdom of the Netherlands party
for the Netherlands 12-8-1949
for Netherlands Antilles
for Aruba

That being said, in case Chavez tries military action, European countries and the US will be stumbling over each other to get there to bash him militarily.

And Jecito - cut the defamation of Dutch courage and troops with out of context and selective material. Anyone who follows the fighting in Afghanistan knows that the Dutch are in the thick of it and their fighting prowess and capability is well regarded.

 

[kato]

I'm just reading up on the Exercice Caraïbe 2008 back in early March.

http://www.faantilles.com/011actu.dossiers/actu.2008/080303ExerciceCar2008/Dossier presse.pdf (en Francais)

In my opinion that scenario was in a limited way also a scoping exercise for a EU military buildup on the ABC islands (mission in exercise: secure the island Marie Galante with local resistance built up by an external influencing power and local non-state actors).

Now, imagine the same thing with a Dutch-French-British amphibious group with proper escort setting sail from Europe instead of an adhoc locally formed flotilla of five ships, with say six marine battalions instead of two and more punch than just some transport aircraft. Would likely be more than enough to scare Chavez back into forgetting about the ABC islands if he ever got such ideas.

In this regard remember: the last time the Netherlands transferred F-16s to Curacao they did these 7,000 km in a single, air-refueled flight with an accompanying KDC-10.

 

[harryriedl]

I'm just reading up on the Exercice Caraïbe 2008 back in early March.

http://www.faantilles.com/011actu.dossiers/actu.2008/080303ExerciceCar2008/Dossier presse.pdf (en Francais)

In my opinion that scenario was in a limited way also a scoping exercise for a EU military buildup on the ABC islands (mission in exercise: secure the island Marie Galante with local resistance built up by an external influencing power and local non-state actors).

Now, imagine the same thing with a Dutch-French-British amphibious group with proper escort setting sail from Europe instead of an adhoc locally formed flotilla of five ships, with say six marine battalions instead of two and more punch than just some transport aircraft. Would likely be more than enough to scare Chavez back into forgetting about the ABC islands if he ever got such ideas.

In this regard remember: the last time the Netherlands transferred F-16s to Curacao they did these 7,000 km in a single, air-refueled flight with an accompanying KDC-10.

in a joint ops Dutch,French,UK who would have overall control and largest proportion of warships because that's the always the issue with joint ops the issue of control and who has it

 

[StevoJH]

in a joint ops Dutch,French,UK who would have overall control and largest proportion of warships because that's the always the issue with joint ops the issue of control and who has it

Netherlands own the Islands but the UK followed by the French would have the largest contingents.

 

[Grand Danois]

None of the above - it would be run using existing command structures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SHAPE-Structure.jpg

 

[kato]

I think a NRF contingent or a EU BG would be more applicable than NATO SHAPE. The SHAPE HQs are busy with Iraq and Afghanistan anyway. Or at least CC-LAND Heidelberg is.

As for "overall command", such a question likely wouldn't come up.

Let's look at this in some real numbers, outside NATO structure:

The likely mobilized units would be:
- 1st Marine Btl @ Doorn, NL (layer 2)
- 2nd Marine Btl @ Doorn, NL (layer 2)
- 3rd NL Marine Btl @ Aruba (layer 0)
- 33e RIMa @ Fort-de-France, Martinique (layer 1)
- 41e RIMa @ Pointe-a-Pitre, Guadeloupe (layer 1)

3rd NL Marine Btl is in place already.
33e and 41e RIMa would use local transport to directly deploy to Curacao within 3-4 days.
1st and 2nd Marine Btl would sail from Europe.

6th Battalion on standby would of course by 9e RIMa @ Cayenne, Guyane.

The 2 battalions would require one of the Rotterdam LPDs, plus additional transport for the second btl. Could e.g. be strategic, second-wave transport or by "borrowing" one of the Bays - in exchange for NL not calling up 3rd Commando Bde under NATO. Escort with two LCF, perhaps one or two French frigates/destroyers in addition to that, but that's just for "convenience of joint travel". Add a SSN for good measure, if one is available.

At the same time, route several packages of 4-6 fighters each with a KDC-10 or KC-135 to Saint Martin, Hato AFB, BA365 and BA367, say oh... two squadrons to each of these four bases in two waves.

Should be within deployable form for both countries, with say a 14 day immediate call up, and full deployment of forces to theater after 30 days?

(at which point of course additional assets would become available to the Netherlands, see e.g. the MSSC 30-day call-up for sealift)

 

[Grand Danois]

EUBGs like the MARFORs are subject to NATO JHQ/JFHQs like Northwood/Lisbon/Naples - thus the active NATO command structure is overlapping/available to EU and transferred to EU command. A deployed force would inherit this structure.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...TakesCommandOfEuRapidResponseBattleGroups.htm

Who is in command of the NRF MARFOR right now? - The Dutch.

Netherlands Marfor is working up to full operational capability status, which it is to achieve in July.

The one-star battle staff is to assume command in January 2009 of the amphibious task force/landing force assigned to NRF 12. Strike Force NATO headquarters in Norfolk, Va., will take on the two-star role of maritime component commander.

Both LPDs of the Dutch navy, a hydrographic survey ship, a fleet-replenishment ship and a medical surgery team, will also be on standby as part of NRF 12, as will 12 Lockheed Martin F-16AMs of the Royal Netherlands Air Force. The embarked amphibious forces will be British and Norwegian.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...ews/DTISEASTAFF.xml&headline=Floating Command

Political control may be EU - operational command structure NATO.

Btw, note a NATO command with this jurisdiction (which is also stated for the mission statement of Brunssum JHQ, irrc)

European navies are developing seaborne battle staffs at one- and even two-star levels, which are capable of planning and running combined/joint (multinational and multi-service) global expeditionary operations from the sea. The staffs can do this independently, but are set up to be interoperable within international command and control structures, like those of NATO, the European Union or a coalition force.

A one-star level is led by an officer of the commodore or brigadier general rank directing up to 10,000 personnel. A two-star level involves a rear admiral or major general leading up to 20,000 personnel.

 

[harryriedl]

thanks GD and Kato so the dutch would have overall control as they make up the majority of the land force backed up mostly with French vessels to make up escorts.

Is it unlikely that both the Dutch LPD would be avalible for sea lift so the NL wouldn't have to borrow sea lift

 

[kato]

Above was just to point out that it's doable for the Netherlands, with French help, especially as forward-deployed units go.

Full-scale? Expect 11 AMB to deploy to Saint Martin, the full 3rd RN Cdo Bde and 9e BLBMa to set sails in addition to that, and a NRF around 1 GE/NL Corps riding in MSSC ships on their heels.

 

[citizen578]

Firstly, i disagree quite strongly with the sentiment that Dutch forces are somehow weak or incapable of fighting. The Netherlands is a country with a long history of ferocity and strength, and having worked with the Dutch forces, i know this has not changed.
They have some of the best-trained sailors/soldiers/airmen in the world, as well as enjoying some of the most advanced technology, and have a wealth of combat experience. It would be a massive injustice to our allies and long-time friends to brand them as anything but highly competent.

I highly doubt that Chavez is stupid enough to attack the Dutch West Indies, as he knows what the consequences would be (especially with the US IV Fleet breathing down his neck).

The great lesson of the Falklands for Latin-American politicians was ''never act, just talk - lots''. Galtieri made the major mistake of drawing the military wrath of the United Kingdom, whilst the entire purpose of these 'claims' is to stir nationalism and justify self-serving isolationism. You can see it right across South America, from Ushaia to Caracas. Chavez know that he is more powerful by shouting and gensturing (literally, as the case may be!) than by sending his peacock forces into the Caribbean.

How is it NOT different from the Falklands?
1) The gigantic strategic advantage which Argentina enjoyed is not present in the Southern Caribbean. Not only are Dutch forces far more consolidated than a handful of bootnecks on an oversized sheep-pen, but they enjoy a multitude of friendly bases, most notably those of the UK, US, and France. Which brings me to my next point...
2) The non-involvement of NATO partners, as in '82, is almost an impossibility for the partnership. As someone posted above, an attack on one member state is an attack on the alliance. This being in addition to the fact the the DWI's are well within NATO's area of operations, and are classed as part of EU territory. Before you know it, the Venezuelen coast would be stalked by the dark shilouettes of NATO warships. There are sufficient NATO vessels already in theatre on counter-narc ops to peturb any kind of ambitions Chavez might have.
3) The US is just gagging for an excuse to attack Venezuela. The reactivation of the IV Fleet, the increased activity of the USCG & USN in the region, the constant air coverage from MP aircraft and AWACS, the US sponsored (failed) coups, the spying missions and accusations of attempted assassination...
the writing is on the wall.

Su30's, Kilo subs, and whatever else they plan on buying won't make any difference, because Venezuelen forces are going nowhere except the odd parade through Caracas.

 

[swerve]

2) The non-involvement of NATO partners, as in '82, is almost an impossibility for the partnership. As someone posted above, an attack on one member state is an attack on the alliance. This being in addition to the fact the the DWI's are well within NATO's area of operations, and are classed as part of EU territory.

Sorry, but although I agree that the Netherlands would be aided by its allies, most of the above is false.

The NATO treaty clearly excludes the Netherlands Antilles. This has already been discussed in this thread, at length, & links posted to the treaty. Read the treaty, & look at a map. They're out of area.

The Netherlands Antilles are not EU territory. The EU website lists all the special areas, both those within the EU but with a special status, & the territories linked to EU members but which are outside the EU (Greenland, for example - but that's covered by NATO). The Netherlands Antilles are in the latter category, along with the British West Indies, the Falklands, Diego Garcia, etc. Outside the EU. Again, this has been discussed already, & links provided.

 

[Ananda]

Hi all,
I'm new here and this is my first posting. Have been visit this forum for quite some time, and quite amaze with the know how of defense related matters from some members.

If i may ask some opinions, how do the nato track record actually have related in defending members colonies. I know some argument and discussion already arise on whether the dutch colonies in Caribbean are included in nato's charter, but it's seems the nato members are reluctant to show their willingness to go to armed conflict for other members colonies.

Besides the Falkland witch UK has to fight alone, do remember that the Dutch in the 60's (thus already nato's member) has experienced losing colonies to armed conflict (although not full scale yet). The colony that i'm mentioned was West Papua and the opposite force was my own country Indonesia.

The dutch in that time I believe was much more ready on protecting far colonies compare to present situation (they still have their carrier and more capable navy and army at least for the 60's standard).
Dutch always have capable armed forces, but again at present time capable for defending motherland and not the colonies.

Thus in my opinion, potential armed challenge from Venezuela is always plausible, considering at the time of west papua conflict most of Indonesian Submarines and fighters jets still new and untested (in fact half of the submarines crews were Russians).
Thus it is not entirely laughable for Venezuela with new equipments and untested military (same condition with Indonesian at that time) can put or force some armed challenge.

Besides, when looking to Chavez always remind me of our late President Soekarno at that time. Full of nasionalistic bravado that try to cover the real problem in the country.
It's just Soekarno get away for that conflict (with West Papua as prize), he got hit hard when he tried to do the same thing with the UK (for Malaysia and Singapore). Again back to my basic questions, in all the experience we have when facing Nato's members in defending the colonies, it always with that particular member and not with overall nato's alliance (for UK, only helped got from Aussies and NZ, in our case).

Well that's just my thought and opinion, sorry for the english (since it's not my language). Cheers all.