Pakistan Army News and Discussions

[kay_man]

http://www.geo.tv/9-28-2008/25842.htm
1 billion dollar Upgrades for army helo's and aircraft.

Does this mean no more F-16 upgrade ?
Or is this in addition to that?

and how much of 1.01 bn $ will pakistan be getting. This is a very short news report and very vague.

 

[radiosilence]

Does this mean no more F-16 upgrade ?
Or is this in addition to that?

and how much of 1.01 bn $ will pakistan be getting. This is a very short news report and very vague.

This deal is separate from the F-16 upgrade.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of AH-1F Cobra helicopter refurbishment as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $115 million.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of refurbishment and maintenance of eight AH-1F Cobra Helicopters.......

link

 

[falconlover81]

Question related to Oerlikon's in Pak Army

Guys its a question pertaining to the number of Oerlikon's present in service with
the pakistan army air defence because i have read conflicting reports about its number with the pak army one report states that pakistan ordered 21 oerlikon's
from switzerland and on the other hand wikipedia states we have about 200
oerlikon's in service with the pak army.senior members can throw some light on the issue and help me by clearing the confusion.Thanks

 

[tatra]

Guys its a question pertaining to the number of Oerlikon's present in service with
the pakistan army air defence because i have read conflicting reports about its number with the pak army one report states that pakistan ordered 21 oerlikon's
from switzerland and on the other hand wikipedia states we have about 200
oerlikon's in service with the pak army.senior members can throw some light on the issue and help me by clearing the confusion.Thanks

The chinese produce a cloned version of the Oerlikon GDFs it imported, called Type 90: maybe that can help explain the discrepancy: 21 from Switzerland and another 180 (cheaper ones, no doubt, if not because cheaper production then because of friendship prices) from china?

China imported a small number of the OerlikonGDF twin-35mm AAA and the associated Skyguard air defence radar system from Switzerland in the 1980s. Later the weapon was produced in China locally under license as the Type 90.

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/antiaircraft/type90towed35mm.asp

 

[mysterious]

Interesting news & rather surprising one (developing at this stage) as local Pakistani media are reporting that France has just announced that it will be providing Pakistan with Tiger Attack Helicopters and other military equipment to help in its efforts to crush the Taliban militias in the country's North-West.

The disclosure was apparently made by French defence officials who held meetings with Pakistan's president and prime-minister as part of a French delegation to improve bilateral ties.

Now, according to ArmyTechnology website, the Tiger carries Hellfire-II missiles and M299 'smart' launchers in addition to its main gun, 68mm rockets and Mistral missiles.

It is as yet unclear as to which 'version' of the helicopter Pakistan has or will settle for since current customers, including France, Germany, Spain, Australia, etc have all different versions on order.

This should definitely provide a boost to Pakistan's counter-insurgency ops as combined with the Cobras in Pakistan Army's service, the air-arm should be able to deliver some serious punch.

 

[ghanz]

26 Pakistani Security Personnel dead in a helicopter crash in tribal are of Orakzai. It was a MI-17 helicopter. R.I.P
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Deadly military crash in Pakistan

 

[Falstaff]

Interesting news & rather surprising one (developing at this stage) as local Pakistani media are reporting that France has just announced that it will be providing Pakistan with Tiger Attack Helicopters and other military equipment to help in its efforts to crush the Taliban militias in the country's North-West.

The disclosure was apparently made by French defence officials who held meetings with Pakistan's president and prime-minister as part of a French delegation to improve bilateral ties.

I was very surprised by this too. Now today I read this on defensenews

No Tiger Helos in Potential French Sale To Pakistan
By USMAN ANSARI, ISLAMABAD

France is preparing a comprehensive defense package to help Pakistan in its counterterrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, according to a spokesman at the French defense section at Paris' embassy here.

The spokesman said that the deal would include weapons and training.

"Nothing has been agreed, but a lot of things have been discussed. The main issue is to help Pakistan in the area of counterterrorism," he said.

He gave no further details but denied reports that a deal had been reached to sell the Franco-German Tiger helicopter to Islamabad.

The spokesman said the deal might be concluded when French President Nicholas Sarkozy visits sometime after Sept. 21.

France is already working to remedy a shortage of helicopters that has hindered the Pakistan Army during its counterterrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province. The French have returned Pakistan's Puma transport and utility helicopters to full operational status. They are also providing the armed variant of the AS550 Fennec light helicopter, which will join the unarmed Ecureuil variant that in service with Pakistan Army Aviation.

But France may not be keen to sell the Tiger gunship, said defense analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium.

Khan said the Pakistan Army needs extra gunships "immediately," but he noted that the most obvious source, Washington, is unable to meet the need. Pakistan had hoped to acquire the AH-64 Apache, but no funds are available for the purchase.

Additional AH-1F Cobras are also unlikely to materialize soon because, he said, "it takes close to 24 to 36 months to refurbish a stored AH-1 S/F and make it fully combat-operational."

However, a spokesman for the defense section in the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said Pakistan had previously declined an offer of further refurbished Cobras.

"Through Foreign Military Financing (FMF), the U.S. provided 12 refurbished AH-1Fs to Pakistan in 2007. Pakistan used U.S. grants to pay for the refurbishments. Also through FMF, the U.S. offered to refurbish an additional eight Pakistan Army AH-1F Cobras; however, Pakistan decided not to pursue this course of action," he said.

Khan said the only other U.S. option also comes with a considerable time delay.

"The U.S. has indicated that they are willing and able to release close to 14 AH-1W Super Cobras immediately, but first Pakistan Army pilots and technicians would need to be trained. Therefore, the Pakistan Army would be looking at another 10 to 12 months before it wears Pakistani colors," he said.

Khan said Pakistan's needs would best be met by the South African AH-2 Rooivalk.

"It is hard-hitting, rugged, needs little support, the Pakistan Army is familiar with the Puma platform [upon which it is based] and has expertise with it, and it suits Pakistan's industrial base to a large degree."

But he said the Rooivalk program is now all but at a premature end, and Islamabad lacks the finances to revive and purchase it from the South Africans.

I will confess honestly that I'm not a close follower of Pakistan Army news- I'm quite surprised that there are so many options on the table.
Perhaps one of the senior members could shed some light on this, esp. what the chances are we'll see the mentioned contenders in service. What is the POW of the Pakistani armed forces on this?

It is really a somewhat weird thought for me, imagining the Tiger that was built to ambush soviet tanks in the dense woods and rolling hills of Germany fly counterterrorism in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan. What a small world this is today

 

[SABRE]

I was very surprised by this too. Now today I read this on defensenews



I will confess honestly that I'm not a close follower of Pakistan Army news- I'm quite surprised that there are so many options on the table.
Perhaps one of the senior members could shed some light on this, esp. what the chances are we'll see the mentioned contenders in service. What is the POW of the Pakistani armed forces on this?

It is really a somewhat weird thought for me, imagining the Tiger that was built to ambush soviet tanks in the dense woods and rolling hills of Germany fly counterterrorism in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan. What a small world this is today

There are two options available to Pakistan. i) Tiger and ii) AW-129 as per my knowledge. I haven't seen significant moves towards either by PA though until now when reports emerged of Tiger being sold to Pakistan.

We cannot comment much on 'Tiger' reports because nothing official has been stated on this. The ISPR neither has affirmed the reports nor rejected it. On the other hand the Pakistan Armed Forces procurement strategy is to purchase things behind the curtain. Deals are not officially announced until the agreement has been sorted out and is ready to be signed.

Tigers can be used for counter terrorist missions but the purchase, if it is to take place, is primarily to fill the Pakistan Army's own conventional needs. Some where down the road PA would also require to retire its Cobras.

 

[kay_man]

There are two options available to Pakistan. i) Tiger and ii) AW-129 as per my knowledge. I haven't seen significant moves towards either by PA though until now when reports emerged of Tiger being sold to Pakistan.

We cannot comment much on 'Tiger' reports because nothing official has been stated on this. The ISPR neither has affirmed the reports nor rejected it. On the other hand the Pakistan Armed Forces procurement strategy is to purchase things behind the curtain. Deals are not officially announced until the agreement has been sorted out and is ready to be signed.

Tigers can be used for counter terrorist missions but the purchase, if it is to take place, is primarily to fill the Pakistan Army's own conventional needs. Some where down the road PA would also require to retire its Cobras.

yes but NATO has given the green flag for sale of tiger to pakistan.....which i also remember India furiously opposed.
so if Pakistan can muster some funds there should not be much obstacles in the deal.
SABRE how many gun ships would pakistan require / need to in order to replace older cobras and add muscle ?
if the deal goes though how many pieces will it order?

 

[SABRE]

yes but NATO has given the green flag for sale of tiger to pakistan.....which i also remember India furiously opposed.
so if Pakistan can muster some funds there should not be much obstacles in the deal.
SABRE how many gun ships would pakistan require / need to in order to replace older cobras and add muscle ?
if the deal goes though how many pieces will it order?

If you want my straight forward answer then "I have no idea, yet."

 

[falconlover81]

Guys since we are discussing Pakistan's requirement here we should not forget
that there has been a series of high profile meetings between Pakistan and the US first General Kiyani goes to the US and highlights Pakistan's needs especially for a gunship helicopter then US diplomats come and discuss Pakistan's need in terms of weapons required for WOT now something's cooking guys i think we have to be realistic here Rooivalk is not an option anymore Tiger is expensive and Pakistan dosent want used helos so that leaves us with the Apache 30 of these machines could prove lethal which is exactly Pakistan's requirement right now its just a matter of when as far as i am concerned senior members could elaborate this a little more.......

 

[ghanz]

Why does Pakistani army has such a high causality rate in the war against Taliban then Nato and American forces in Afghanistan? Is Pakistani army under equipped or not well trained for these kind of missions?

 

[mysterious]

Why does Pakistani army has such a high causality rate in the war against Taliban then Nato and American forces in Afghanistan? Is Pakistani army under equipped or not well trained for these kind of missions?

Please clarify if you are talking about KIA rate or general Casualty rate - also provide figures to back up your claim.

Most personnel killed at the hands of the Taliban in Pakistan continue to be the ill-equipped Police force, Border Guards [FC, Khasadars, Scouts, etc]. The Army itself has had lesser casualties but the figures are still somewhat higher than U.S and NATO because unlike these two, Pakistan Army is taking the Taliban head-on by launching an all out campaign to destroy them. NATO & U.S continue to play hide 'n' seek with Taliban in Afghanistan so as to avoid higher casualties because it sours the public mood back home that is already highly against the war.

Lets also not forget the allegations - which seem highly credible to me - that the Italian contingent of the NATO force paid bribes to Taliban forces to avoid being attacked.

 

[ghanz]

Thank you for the reply. I was talking about KIA, and my source is bbc and dawn news as every week there are news of Pakistan Soldiers dieing in action.

I was watching a documentary on Pakistan Military and they showed different weapons of the army. Soldiers weren't happy with G3 has its heavier gun, around 4 kg and its accuracy decrease's when on fully automatic. If it is true, is Pakistani army looking into changing there main gun?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7XBFCajBuc&feature=PlayList&p=50C176FD97FAA4A9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28"]YouTube - We Are Soldiers - Pakistan Military - Episode 1 Part 3[/ame]
they talk about the gun around 3 min

 

[aaaditya]

i thought that the pakistani army also used the steyr-aug,assault rifle,what is the status of it?and its role in the pakistani armed forces?

its a pretty capable gun,i believe it was one of the earlier bull pup designs,iam sure it would be comparably lighter than the hk-g3,which i feel is comparable to the indian army fn-fal in terms of weight and capability.

 

[kay_man]

i thought that the pakistani army also used the steyr-aug,assault rifle,what is the status of it?and its role in the pakistani armed forces?

its a pretty capable gun,i believe it was one of the earlier bull pup designs,iam sure it would be comparably lighter than the hk-g3,which i feel is comparable to the indian army fn-fal in terms of weight and capability.

only the special forces use that.....cool looking gun though.

 

[ghanz]

Blackwater aka Xe operating in Pakistan. It has been reported in Pakistani Newspapers, but found this report on Al-Jazeera. If they are operating, DID Pakistani official give them permission and why is ISI not doing what they are doing in Pakistan.
Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - US firm 'runs covert Pakistan ops'

 

[SURB]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bullet Proof Helmet[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Description[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Keeping in view the high degree of threat by terrorists, the Advanced Composites Research Center at Air Weapons Complex has carried out extensive research on bullet-proof materials. Using indigenous technology, AWC has developed lightweight composite Bullet-proof Helmets that provide exceptional battlefield protection. At the same time, the unique design features facilitate body and head movement while aiming, crawling and running.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Design[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Specific layers of biaxial woven kevlar fabric have been integrated in polymeric resin. The fabric/resin has been cured in a specific (PASGAT)mould under high temperature and pressure for specific time duration. After de-molding, trimming and painting, webbing is attached to the Helmet.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Test Firing [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Helmet was fired at from a distance of 5m by 9mm caliber sub-machine gun ammunition at ballistic test facilities of Air Weapons Complex and Inspectorate of Armaments, Rawalpindi, in accordance with NIJ standard 0101.01. The Helmet stopped the bullet effectively. The average trauma effect was found to be within limits. The Helmet was also tested under wet conditions. The wet tests [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Features[/FONT][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Protection Level III A (against 9mm ammunition) [/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Design PASGAT design[/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]0 Material Kevlar[/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Resin Material Polymeric[/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Color Optional[/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Webbing Cotton[/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ballistic Visor Optional[/FONT][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Weight 1.5 Kg [/FONT][/FONT]

Bullet Proof Jacket

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Description[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Keeping in view the high degree of threat posed by terrorists, the Advanced Composites Research Center at Air Weapons Complex has carried out extensive research on bullet-proof materials. Using indigenous technology, AWC has developed lightweight composite Bullet-proof Jackets that provide exceptional battlefield protection. At the same time, the unique design features facilitate body and head movement while aiming, crawling and running.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Design[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Specific layers of biaxial woven kevlar fabric have been stitched in diamond pattern. The trauma pack is an integral part of the ballistic insert. The assembly is stitched in water/moisture-resistant black plastic to maintain its ballistic properties. This effectively stops the 9mm bullet. The Jacket can stop the 7.62mm bullet after insertion of front and back laminated ceramic plate. The outer cover is made of washable 100% cotton camouflage twill.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Test Firing [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Jacket was fired at from a distance of 5m by 9mm and 7.62mm caliber ammunition at ballistic test facilities of Air Weapons Complex and Inspectorate of Armaments, Rawalpindi, in accordance with NIJ standard 0101.01. The Jacket stopped both types of bullets effectively with nominal trauma effect.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Features[/FONT][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]High tensile strength/modules[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]High toughness[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Light weight[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Excellent retention of [/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]High thermal stability[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Self extinguishing[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cut resistant[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Good chemical resistance[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Good things would come up in the near future Like Indian Sathi[/FONT]

well sorry for a pretty late input, once i got a chance to talk about the current Bullet proof jackets and Helmets pak army using in swat war with a serving brigadier, he added to my knowledge by saying that the current type practically doesn't stop 7.62mm Ak-47 rounds ...maximum resistance offered if any is just for a single bullet ...the ceramic plate shatters with one shot and all what is required is another bullet to kill the soldiers.
Regarding helmets he said they aren't as effective too and quoting him exactly "i have seen soldiers dying when hit with a straight projectile whether it's 7.62 or anything else....for angled projectile there is some resistance there might be some resistance."
well i don't know what type bullet proof vest and helmets pakistan army is using in swat and waziristan war ....if he is right this might be one of the causes of higher casualties in war against terror on the pakistani side ghanz was mentioning previously.
Please don't mind my late input keep on discussing the matters as they are sequenced.

 

[SURB]

26 Pakistani Security Personnel dead in a helicopter crash in tribal are of Orakzai. It was a MI-17 helicopter. R.I.P
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Deadly military crash in Pakistan

Yeah these talibans (as they are called) are getting pretty effective AA guns and weapons....although it was said officialy announced that it was some technical problem....heli got out out of control and crashed, but latter they commited helicopter been hit by militants.
well that zone around Peshawar is really dangerous , the person about which i mentioned in my previous post in this thread also got hit in a Bell412 helicopter near Peshawar ....luckily he escaped unharmed....the bullets hit heli's wing and it was landed later safely......luckily with no casualties and injuries of personnel on board( therefore newer mentioned anywhere on the media).
My hopes are with pak army ........they must defeat these militants once for all.
some other accidents (before army started the operation) which were mentioned are here,
http://warbirdsofindia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=187
and army losses in waziristan operation,
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/26/pak-army-faces-stiff-resistance-in-waziristan.htm

 

[mysterious]

Yeah these talibans (as they are called) are getting pretty effective AA guns and weapons....although it was said officialy announced that it was some technical problem....heli got out out of control and crashed, but latter they commited helicopter been hit by militants.
well that zone around Peshawar is really dangerous , the person about which i mentioned in my previous post in this thread also got hit in a Bell412 helicopter near Peshawar ....luckily he escaped unharmed....the bullets hit heli's wing and it was landed later safely......luckily with no casualties and injuries of personnel on board( therefore newer mentioned anywhere on the media).
My hopes are with pak army ........they must defeat these militants once for all.
some other accidents (before army started the operation) which were mentioned are here,
Warbirds of India • View topic - PAF Accidents 2008
and army losses in waziristan operation,
Pak army faces stiff resistance in Waziristan: Rediff.com India News

User 'surb', please refrain from using jingoistic Indian media sources relating to information on Pakistan Army and its operation-related issues.

Compared to NATO/ISAF & American forces across the border in Afghanistan, the Pakistan Army has fared much well and has managed to capture and hold ground by routing Taliban militias authoritatively.

On a related note, the current focus of the American 'surge' in Afghanistan is to make Pakistan Army do most of the fighting by driving militants across the border in to Pakistan from Afghanistan. This a great strategy for masking U.S/ISAF failures and putting them in Pakistan's basket.