Royal New Zealand Air Force

greenie

New Member
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:rolleyesThe purpose of an Air strike arm for NZ was always maritime strike and to enable the army and navy to train for their roles in war(a capability they are losing). The maritime strike capacity was, as it always has been, to ensure the protection of NZ's coastal, maritime approaches and the overall maritime region from enemy activity, mainly mine laying and commerce raiding.

I remember talking to a SWO on Te Mana one day (I could be wrong so if someone could comfirm) about the A4 , the ANZAC radar could pick up the A4 signature at 2.5 miles ,when down in the weeds compared to the F/A18 at 10 miles.Just imagine what the RN would be like today if the Argies had our A4s, I suspect thats why the sale has always been blocked, there just to darn good!!! Contary to the rumors.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
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I remember talking to a SWO on Te Mana one day (I could be wrong so if someone could comfirm) about the A4 , the ANZAC radar could pick up the A4 signature at 2.5 miles ,when down in the weeds compared to the F/A18 at 10 miles.Just imagine what the RN would be like today if the Argies had our A4s, I suspect thats why the sale has always been blocked, there just to darn good!!! Contary to the rumors.
I think a lot of that was the various avionics upgrades, which is why I think that bleeding edge aircraft for NZ was not totally necessary, aside from cost, but more importantly the sheer skill of the pilots. You could not replicate the pilot skill no matter to whom we sold the aircraft to.
As to why the sale was blocked, my expectation is that it was politics; notice that the sale issue suddenly became 'unblocked' after Condi's visit when NZ agreed to the US sale of nuclear energy tech to India, and their was movement on free trade, albeit via the P4 deal.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Woah, I go off line for a few days and it's like WW3 has erupted on some of these NZ threads (been checking out the bloggesphere digesting the current nz political corruption scandals, boy oh boy just when one thought things couldn't get any worse for the govt they must be digging a hole, so deep that it will be able to reach china soon...), but hey back onto the topic.

NZ's ACF. Some random thoughts.

From what I have read from two other sources over the last couple of years (but this is unverified) words to the effect that the Govt has realised disbanding the ACF in 2001 was a mistake in terms of recruiting and retention (mistake as in disaster). Like I say, unverified, and who said it, cannot say (nor even sure if this is true). Can anyone shed light on this claim?

However from what I understand from (reading accounts of) former RNZAF personnel from various sources, the ACF's maritime strike training was rated very highly (as evidenced by 2 Sqn's training contracts with the RAN). Very interesting to a civvee like me considering 2 Sqn was primarily an OCU.

I've since read that the previous govt had acknowledged that 75 Sqn was on standby in either Australia or Singapore in the event of the East Timor intervention tensions escalating with Indonesia at the time.

Now if it were true that an A-4 was detectable by an ANZAC radar at 2.5 miles, the crew wouldn't have time to let out an expeletive before they were hit! I'm also amazed at the contempt shown by some former RNZAF personnel for the likes of the Frigates e.g. sitting duck targets etc. So assuming this isn't a biased opinion, one would conclude that NZ shouldn't be relying soley on Frigates for its defence or offence, having additional capabilities such as maritime strike aircraft would be wise insurance.

Nice post bowex, totally agree with your sentiments, and Stuart, I understand and agree that maritime strike is important to NZ's coastal defence as evidenced by history etc. As well as the importance of regional defence contributions.

Speaking theoretically, although state of the art latest generation aircraft would be nice for NZ, I'm of the view that that isn't necessarily the case i.e. NZ is not likely to be using such aircraft as part of some grand coalition in the latest overseas war zone (as well as the unaffordability), but as evidenced by the upgraded A-4's they certainly were a useful contribution in an ANZAC or FPDA force dealing with situations in SE Asia (sure, the A-4's were not in the same league as the RAAF F/A-18's by any stretch, but could operate well in that maritime strike role).

I've previously said that I don't see the re-estabishment of an ACF as being a high priority, but maybe I didn't explain at the time that would be the case if defence expenditure remained at 1% of GDP, for at 1%, the upgrades to the other RNZAF (and NZDF) assets were vital (as they tended to be over looked). But as I've said and others too, NZ cannot sustain defence at 1% of GDP in terms of building up personnel and capabilities - the NZDF is just too stretched and personnel are being worn out from too many deployments. Hopefully a National or Labour defence white paper might be able to justify an increase in expediture, expand personnel numbers and if we got back to 2% of GDP, perhaps in consultation with our allies, I believe there could be case to be made of re-establishing an ACF of sorts, assuming the geo-political situation is SE Asia could justify doing so and with public buy in as a bonus but not an absolute.

In the meantime, a change of Govt (or change of Labour leader, ahem Mr Goff) should at the very least get those Aermacchis operational again in a training capacity for the Navy and Army (and to help with RNZAF recruiting). Other options could follow on in due course.

NZ has no CAP capability, something that has become important post 9/11 (and 9/11 won't be the last time that airliners are used as flying missiles). Although the A-4's were not primarily tasked for air-to-air, the RNZAF certainly practised those skills.

It's been said that once the ACF was disbanded it would be hard to re-establish it. I don't believe that, it's amazing what a little bit of extra money can do to get around that. There still exists some institutional knowledge and this can be built up with help from our allies.

Arming the P-3's with stand off weapons and new long range torpedoes is another solution, but in some situations sending in a one man fighter-bombers to deal with a threat would be a better strategy than risking a high-medium altitude, slow moving P-3 (with very limited self-defence capabilities).

NZ should also consider allowing the Singaporians to base some of their fighter-bomber aircraft in NZ. (Perhaps this could be done in partnership with the Australians eg NZ would be useful for low-level mountainous training, whereas Australia has the advantage of wider open spaces etc). Now apart from the political advantages, the public would get to understand better the defence partnership that NZ has with the FPDA eg we train to fight in SE Asia, the Singaporians also train to fight in NZ skies should we ever be at risk from coastal raiders and the like etc. In other words it would be a practical concept for the public to get in behind to support etc (and I would have said get the RAAF in perhaps, but I remember reading in these forums the Aussies saying a couple of years ago that it is most unlikely the RAAF could expand here. Singapore is the obvious choice due to their lack of air space and the fact that NZ-Singapore has a close trade and defence relationship (like Australia does too).
 

greenie

New Member
I have never agreed with the need to replace the A4, value for money they are a wonderful platform,all they needed was the RNZAF to add an air to air refulling to several C130s and then they would have some extra legs.
The F16 was a great deal ,but I felt this particular aircraft was not the right choice for NZ,for example, the F16 was designed for the USAF and its tankers, not the US navy system as used downunder.
At the very least get 14 sqn up and flying, I understand the are all at "turn key" status until they run out of "life " spares.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
I have never agreed with the need to replace the A4, value for money they are a wonderful platform,all they needed was the RNZAF to add an air to air refulling to several C130s and then they would have some extra legs.
They needed replacement, they were worn out.

The F16 was a great deal ,but I felt this particular aircraft was not the right choice for NZ,for example, the F16 was designed for the USAF and its tankers, not the US navy system as used downunder.
I am not sure it would have mattered, but then we didn't have much of a choice either.


At the very least get 14 sqn up and flying, I understand the are all at "turn key" status until they run out of "life " spares.
Problem is that the US has ok'ed the sale, so unless it is further delayed untill after the National white paper, assuming they win and assuming the white paper recommends their retention..lot of assumptions and 'if's'.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
I've previously said that I don't see the re-estabishment of an ACF as being a high priority, but maybe I didn't explain at the time that would be the case if defence expenditure remained at 1% of GDP, for at 1%, the upgrades to the other RNZAF (and NZDF) assets were vital (as they tended to be over looked). But as I've said and others too, NZ cannot sustain defence at 1% of GDP in terms of building up personnel and capabilities - the NZDF is just too stretched and personnel are being worn out from too many deployments. Hopefully a National or Labour defence white paper might be able to justify an increase in expediture, expand personnel numbers and if we got back to 2% of GDP, perhaps in consultation with our allies, I believe there could be case to be made of re-establishing an ACF of sorts, assuming the geo-political situation is SE Asia could justify doing so and with public buy in as a bonus but not an absolute.
For the love all that is holy, don't mention 'consultation with allies'
1.) We are all grown up and can make our own choices, there is nothing to consult about.

2.) Its gives gives ammunition to the anti-military types, they see something like that they will froth at the mouth and scream foreign control of Aoatearoa etc. Don't give them ammunition.


NZ should also consider allowing the Singaporians to base some of their fighter-bomber aircraft in NZ. (Perhaps this could be done in partnership with the Australians eg NZ would be useful for low-level mountainous training, whereas Australia has the advantage of wider open spaces etc). Now apart from the political advantages, the public would get to understand better the defence partnership that NZ has with the FPDA eg we train to fight in SE Asia, the Singaporians also train to fight in NZ skies should we ever be at risk from coastal raiders and the like etc. In other words it would be a practical concept for the public to get in behind to support etc (and I would have said get the RAAF in perhaps, but I remember reading in these forums the Aussies saying a couple of years ago that it is most unlikely the RAAF could expand here. Singapore is the obvious choice due to their lack of air space and the fact that NZ-Singapore has a close trade and defence relationship (like Australia does too).
But would they want to? their artillery already trains here and they seem happy with existing arraignments. Moreover it looks like bludging.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
For the love all that is holy, don't mention 'consultation with allies'
1.) We are all grown up and can make our own choices, there is nothing to consult about.

2.) Its gives gives ammunition to the anti-military types, they see something like that they will froth at the mouth and scream foreign control of Aoatearoa etc. Don't give them ammunition.




But would they want to? their artillery already trains here and they seem happy with existing arraignments. Moreover it looks like bludging.
Singapore already do aircraft training in australia, plus Australia is not all flat open spaces, we do have several large mountain ranges. ;)
 

KH-12

Member
Well, after you have been around them few times its gets a bit boring ;)..both of them.
Yes they are really just rounded hills are'nt they, mountains are steep and precipitous :shudder

Is'nt the biggest problem with the ACF sale the fact that the proposed purchaser has neither a contract for services nor the money to pay for the A/C and in the current financial climate it might be abit difficult to get said $110M, I'm available to help fly the Macchis's if they are short of pilots :D
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I may be too sceptical for my own good but to me the ACF sale appears to be more smoke and mirrors stuff (remember the govt announced they "sold" the ACF just prior to the last general election)!

Gee, then again if the RAN can buy the ACF instead well that's something out of left feild and seems a better outcome to me than a sale to a private contractor, but I wonder how likely that would ever be as the RAN would need the various support crew and systems etc (it's not just the aircraft) and where would they get them from? Spare parts for the A-4's might also be a problem too?

If I were the incoming National Govt, I'd reinstate the Aermacchi's (and maybe look at getting a few of the best of the A-4's back up to operational status for the Aermacchi pilots to progress onto, initially as an advanced anti-shipping training platform with the RNZN (and RAN?), and then see what other second hand aircraft could be sought in due course if the proposed defence white paper somehow thought that a proper ACF was worth pursuing. Some of the A-4's have life left in them but some I hear are worn out. Then again maybe the A-4 idea isn't the best, perhaps leave that until further options are investigated).

As for 'consulting with our allies', Stuart again you are correct, the mention of the word is a wet dream to those handful of anti-establishment protesting types (eager to impress one another and vent their anger), but it's no longer the 1980's where public opinion was manipulated by them to support the "bigger" cause, even nowadays we have the media questioning ministers on whether we are "allies" with a small or capital "A". So I say bxggxr to those protestors, we shouldn't be scared of offending them, the tide has turned and the public in general have been supportive of the NZDF over the last 10 years or so and aren't generally anti-american at all (just anti-american foreign policy at odd times)! The last informal polls taken back in 2005 had the majority of those polled welcoming USN ships back to NZ (well mostly if there were no nukes on board, which they don't have anyway, so no problem)!
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I may be too sceptical for my own good but to me the ACF sale appears to be more smoke and mirrors stuff (remember the govt announced they "sold" the ACF just prior to the last general election)!

Gee, then again if the RAN can buy the ACF instead well that's something out of left feild and seems a better outcome to me than a sale to a private contractor, but I wonder how likely that would ever be as the RAN would need the various support crew and systems etc (it's not just the aircraft) and where would they get them from? Spare parts for the A-4's might also be a problem too?

If I were the incoming National Govt, I'd reinstate the Aermacchi's (and maybe look at getting a few of the best of the A-4's back up to operational status for the Aermacchi pilots to progress onto, initially as an advanced anti-shipping training platform with the RNZN (and RAN?), and then see what other second hand aircraft could be sought in due course if the proposed defence white paper somehow thought that a proper ACF was worth pursuing. Some of the A-4's have life left in them but some I hear are worn out. Then again maybe the A-4 idea isn't the best, perhaps leave that until further options are investigated).

As for 'consulting with our allies', Stuart again you are correct, the mention of the word is a wet dream to those handful of anti-establishment protesting types (eager to impress one another and vent their anger), but it's no longer the 1980's where public opinion was manipulated by them to support the "bigger" cause, even nowadays we have the media questioning ministers on whether we are "allies" with a small or capital "A". So I say bxggxr to those protestors, we shouldn't be scared of offending them, the tide has turned and the public in general have been supportive of the NZDF over the last 10 years or so and aren't generally anti-american at all (just anti-american foreign policy at odd times)! The last informal polls taken back in 2005 had the majority of those polled welcoming USN ships back to NZ (well mostly if there were no nukes on board, which they don't have anyway, so no problem)!
If you wanted to rebuild the combat force and were willing to spend the money to get modern equipment, the best idea would probably be to enlarge the australian JSF order by adding the RNZAF order to it, keep pilots current either by exchange to the RAAF F-18 units or by reactivating the A4's. Once the JSF arrive training could be carried out through a joint program.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
Yes they are really just rounded hills are'nt they, mountains are steep and precipitous :shudder

Is'nt the biggest problem with the ACF sale the fact that the proposed purchaser has neither a contract for services nor the money to pay for the A/C and in the current financial climate it might be abit difficult to get said $110M, I'm available to help fly the Macchis's if they are short of pilots :D
I rather hope that they haven't got the money..then the option exists to get the Macchis's flying again.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
I may be too sceptical for my own good but to me the ACF sale appears to be more smoke and mirrors stuff (remember the govt announced they "sold" the ACF just prior to the last general election)!

Gee, then again if the RAN can buy the ACF instead well that's something out of left feild and seems a better outcome to me than a sale to a private contractor, but I wonder how likely that would ever be as the RAN would need the various support crew and systems etc (it's not just the aircraft) and where would they get them from? Spare parts for the A-4's might also be a problem too?
If the Australians want them back (some of them were the strike group from the old Melbourne), good luck with them! I think they would be better off with something newer and preferably compatible with existing supply chains.

If I were the incoming National Govt, I'd reinstate the Aermacchi's (and maybe look at getting a few of the best of the A-4's back up to operational status for the Aermacchi pilots to progress onto, initially as an advanced anti-shipping training platform with the RNZN (and RAN?), and then see what other second hand aircraft could be sought in due course if the proposed defence white paper somehow thought that a proper ACF was worth pursuing. Some of the A-4's have life left in them but some I hear are worn out. Then again maybe the A-4 idea isn't the best, perhaps leave that until further options are investigated).
If it was recommended to get back into the fast jet business, I would imagine that given the amount of time it would take once the decision is made, ignoring the political aspects of it, we would be better to look at a new platform as the A4 will be well past any serious use by the time the new pilots are ready to move up to an operational squadron. As to what we would get, perhaps Gripen NG, that would be ready by then I think, and would have a full service life ahead of it and have some growth potential. Granted its not a 5th generation, but it would suit our needs.



As for 'consulting with our allies', Stuart again you are correct, the mention of the word is a wet dream to those handful of anti-establishment protesting types (eager to impress one another and vent their anger), but it's no longer the 1980's where public opinion was manipulated by them to support the "bigger" cause, even nowadays we have the media questioning ministers on whether we are "allies" with a small or capital "A". So I say bxggxr to those protestors, we shouldn't be scared of offending them,
Things are somewhat different, but you might notice that those types tend to hold to those beliefs and happen to in senior positions in the civil service and in PR firms, and the public still knows next to nothing about defence matters and can be easily led.


the tide has turned and the public in general have been supportive of the NZDF over the last 10 years or so and aren't generally anti-american at all (just anti-american foreign policy at odd times)! The last informal polls taken back in 2005 had the majority of those polled welcoming USN ships back to NZ (well mostly if there were no nukes on board, which they don't have anyway, so no problem)!
This is true, there is more public support for defence, however the public will still only vote for those things that are seen in the national interest and 'consulting with allies', capital 'A' or small 'a', will not be seen as in the national interest, after all its no ones business but our own, so why should any nation have any input into our sovereign decisions?.
Its also wise to remember that the current support is based on a consensus created by the left of the spectrum, to change that it would not be wise to use such language that led to the change from the prior consensus to the existing consensus in the first place if one wishes to change it, especially when there is no rational merit to that language! As I said above, we are all grown up and can make our own choices, there is nothing to consult about.

If a National government white paper does recommend the re-establishment of an airstrike capability it must be a recommendation that is based on sound reasoning and logic and must avoid all the stupidity that led to its scrapping in the first place, that is to say no rational or logical reasons presented to keep it.
Of course, National has said its does not intend to reinstate the strike arm and I have no doubt that who ever is appointed to the job of writing the white paper will be considered 'Sound', and will produce exactly what is required (nothing to scare the horses).
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Rebuilding an air to surface combat capability has been under discussion within National’s policy board under the direction of Wayne Mapp. It was lead by some in the party membership who are ex defence and who wanted it up front and centre in the future white paper discussion document and pushed it through one of the regional conference policy remit rounds and up to its policy board earlier this year ( It wasn’t Northern region so I couldn’t go – bugger – I would of loved to have given my views - in Northern defence takes very much a backseat to transport and infrastructure as remit issues). But, from what I have been told by a good Tory mate down the island a couple of months ago that it was basically a “marker” from the pro-defence faction within the membership reminding the parliamentary wing of the party not to stray too far from its traditional defence posture during the white paper process and not go soft and all labour lite. I understand that the terminology of ‘rebuild an air to surface combat capability’ was used in preference to rebuild an ‘air combat capability’ as it would widen the platform capability options and cryptically not scare off the emotive types. One of the points they tried to stress was that anti-ship, interdiction and CAS capabilities are fundamental capability requirements for New Zealand’s situation whether we like it or not. That it would be more pragmatic and cheaper to have a single platform that could do anti-ship, interdiction and CAS as well as been able to easily inter-operate with regional partners, rather than separately purchasing these specialist capabilities and things that would take time to develop institutional knowledge from scratch. The guys pushing it through the conference (one of which had fairly sizable office at 9 Stout Street once upon a time) evidently didn’t think much of harpoons on Orion’s as an anti-shipping solution, that a deployed squadron of attack helicopters is very difficult to support and would be more expensive and take longer to develop from scratch than a squadron of fixed wing combat aircraft, and that the Macchi’s avionics would need to be upgraded (+radar/IFF) to provide realistic simulated anti-ship conditions and would only be useful if NZ was to return to an ACF capability as a transition to rebuild pilot skills. According to my mate they were deliberate in not pointing out to the MP’s present that “we should do this or do that, buy this or buy that”, but just gave a straight forward rational viewpoint and let the meaning of “rebuild an air to surface combat capability” to work itself through the white paper .
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
If you wanted to rebuild the combat force and were willing to spend the money to get modern equipment, the best idea would probably be to enlarge the australian JSF order by adding the RNZAF order to it, keep pilots current either by exchange to the RAAF F-18 units or by reactivating the A4's. Once the JSF arrive training could be carried out through a joint program.
Hypothetically, I'd say this would be the most "sensible and practical" way to go about reinstating a "first class" ACF.

Say NZ orders 8 or 10 or 12 JSF's at approx NZ$1.2-$1.5B and these aircraft form the air combat force. Conduct JSF training and conversion in Australia via a contract, and NZ itself wouldn't need to have additional JSF's for training etc. Perhaps higher level maintenance is also carried out in Australia as a cost saving measure (on personnel, spares, tool sets etc).

Whilst the RNZAF top brass may not be entirley comfortable with this idea, the reality is NZ can't afford to go it alone with the costs and complexities of this level of leading edge sophisticated technology, so with that in mind, perhaps there wouldn't be any other option.

Back to earth now. The trouble is however, NZ Governments can't justify the expense of having the top of the line strike aircraft (eg the A-4 was the RNZAF's third choice when the Canberra replacement was whittled down to three types back in the late 1960's - the F-4 & Mirage were the first two choices after the then Govt ruled out the RNZAF following in step with Australia and procurring the F-111). Although that was then and this is now, I believe the same logic would still apply, because to justify the JSF, NZ would need to be certain that investing so heavily in the JSF would be absolutely vital to NZ's interests which would include defence of Australia, for Australia to fall would result in NZ being under direct threat also. But with no imminent threat of invasion of Australia by anyone (certainly not Malaysia for goodness sake, and surely not Indonesia) in the foreseeable future, this makes justification for the JSF really difficult over here in NZ.

(On the other hand, with the geo-political situation changing in S/SE Asia, I have some questions which I will pose on another thread after I post this eg perhaps on the Aus-NZ relations thread etc).

After going from optimistic to pessimistic, I'll go back to optimisic again (after Stuart's following quote) ....

If a National government white paper does recommend the re-establishment of an airstrike capability it must be a recommendation that is based on sound reasoning and logic and must avoid all the stupidity that led to its scrapping in the first place, that is to say no rational or logical reasons presented to keep it.
Of course, National has said its does not intend to reinstate the strike arm and I have no doubt that who ever is appointed to the job of writing the white paper will be considered 'Sound', and will produce exactly what is required (nothing to scare the horses).
A National Defence Whitepaper is vital to dispel the foundations of Labour's defence policy, the Defence Beyond 2000 inquiry from what 10 years ago now. But I think one has to be realistic that expecting the Whitepaper to recommend restoring a full-on ACF capability isn't something that should be assumed, as you say Stuart in your last sentance above, you may very well be right.

Personally I would expect restoring the Macchi's for advanced training should happen regardless of a Whitepaper or not (under National or under Labour under Goff, if the Labour centre right ever manage to regain control) and also for recruitment and retention reasons - even the armourers don't have much career progression etc.

But I feel there is an ironical twist in Labour's scrapping of the ACF. The reason it was scrapped was political not for any other real defence or foreign policy reasons. There is no reason why an incoming National Govt should have to maintain the status quo, the concept of balanced forces is still valid even since 2001 (and perhaps in a more practical sense since 9/11 etc).

So the irony is, NZ cannot easily go it alone in re-establishing an ACF of some sort. It needs help from its best friend, its greatest trading partner and thus its most trusted pacific partner (especially with the partnership to stabilise the s.w. pacific etc), our good cousins across the ditch.

National's Whitepaper should seriously look at a partnership with Australia to reinvigorate the Macchis (it's also about upskilling the depleted support crews not just pilots etc) and develop further framework options towards re-establishing an ACF. Now that wouldn't necessarily have to be the JSF (which politically would be a hard sell in NZ), Australia would most likely be happy with anything that could contribute to regional security, that may be second hand F-16's (plenty out there), possible even second hand RAF Jaguars, possibly even ex-USN A-6's etc. However the most practical aircraft, perhaps the Grippen, or perhaps could be used F-18's (ex-USN?) or better still new Super Hornets. The beauty of the F-18 (or SH) again is training, conversion and logistics support with the RAAF, and even better still as mused about here a couple of years ago, the RNZAF may be able to acquire the RAAF low houred SH's once their JSF's come online. Remember Australia (Govt) wouldn't expect NZ to afford the JSF, but the SH or F-18 or F-16 or Grippen etc would be good enough.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The USAF were leasing like new cream puff ex-Pakistan aircraft, not newly build or used USAF aircraft. The lease was for 28 aircraft, $110 million over ten years, along with an option to buy for another $110 million. A very reduced fire sale price, after buying, the RNZAF could have them for an average of a bit more than $6 million per aircraft. At the same time the Lockheed were selling new F-16s for over $50 million each. After the sale of the century was cancelled, the USAF took them out of storage, and are still using the aircraft.

One can not even buy new trainer aircraft for that price today. While they might not have been first rate fighter aircraft, their avonics weren't any worst than the Skyhawks, and their parts would have been much more available.
 

moahunter

Banned Member
Whilst the RNZAF top brass may not be entirley comfortable with this idea, the reality is NZ can't afford to go it alone with the costs and complexities of this level of leading edge sophisticated technology, so with that in mind, perhaps there wouldn't be any other option.
Which is essentially my view. If combat strike aircraft were the way to go- NZ would be better off financially by paying the RAAF to do it, as they have the full infrastructure. But instead of that, NZ should find a niche role that will benefit both Australia and NZ. Like for example, a world class UAV program (sink a couple of billion into that, and something useful would come out if ANZUS is restarted and the US helps - more useful than a few extra JSF's for the Australians to call on). In the future, such a program may even be capable of providing sufficient maritime strike to take out the odd fishing trawler, but in the meantime, would be useful on any potential battlefield to both Australian and NZ forces. Just an example, but my point is NZ should try to compliment the Australian forces, and if possible expand them in some way, not try to be a shrunk down weakling brother.
 
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tongan_yam

New Member
Hi everyone, first post here, but have been lurking awhile now and have read all the posts relating to NZ Defense.

@ Moa I have to chime in here and ask that you take an educated understanding of the word sovereign. How does complementing another states defense force promote and enforce the defense of our sovereign territory?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The USAF were leasing like new cream puff ex-Pakistan aircraft, not newly build or used USAF aircraft. The lease was for 28 aircraft, $110 million over ten years, along with an option to buy for another $110 million. A very reduced fire sale price, after buying, the RNZAF could have them for an average of a bit more than $6 million per aircraft. At the same time the Lockheed were selling new F-16s for over $50 million each. After the sale of the century was cancelled, the USAF took them out of storage, and are still using the aircraft.

One can not even buy new trainer aircraft for that price today. While they might not have been first rate fighter aircraft, their avonics weren't any worst than the Skyhawks, and their parts would have been much more available.
The 10 year all up cost for the purchase of the F-16's including support, MLU, ECM and end of lease purchase was NZ$1.064 Billion at the 0.52 FOREX rate. Obviously if the deal had gone through it would have been much more favourable for NZ in that the mean FOREX rate USD-NZD from 99-08 has been around the 0.65 mark. Thus with the strengthening of the kiwi dollar over the period a few hundred million would have been shaved off the total 10 year outlay.

The F-16's (Block 15 OCU) with the MLU and the ECM in the hands of RNZAF pilots would have been an extremely capable unit. Still would be in my view for some time in the future. Though people are right there are no longer "fresh" Vipers lying around AMARC, I would have no problem with any NZ Govt leasing 12-16 reasonable half-lifers that have gone through a MLU as an operational tranisition through next decade if the deal was okay on the numbers side. In my view if it were decided in a future defence white paper that an air strike capability was to return, I think a lot of thought would have to be given to where we are now and where we need to be to operate air strike post 2020. We are going to need to have a big brother to hold our hand while getting up to speed in rebuilding such a capibility. That is while talk of buying used Gripen's, new Hawks, used F-18's ex RAAF, even new A-50's from Korea and all the other possibilities while good, will not stack up to the utility, cost effectiveness, value for money, bang for buck and sheer political smarts of a F-16 lease deal over the short to medium term. The US was a remarkably good big brother in the past to this country, especially its defence force. It's not just the platform its the additionals such as the training package, programme development and significantly the generosity, that makes the real difference. That is where a platform such as the F-16 procured/leased has the advantage over the short to medium term if we chose to develop air strike again.
 

moahunter

Banned Member
@ Moa I have to chime in here and ask that you take an educated understanding of the word sovereign. How does complementing another states defense force promote and enforce the defense of our sovereign territory?
Sovereign is the ability to make decisions, decide whether or not to participate in any given situation.

The last time New Zealand's sovereignty was at risk was in WWII. There was a real threat that the Japanese could advance and take it away (as they had to many pacific nations). To protect its sovereignty (and for other political reasons primarily historical with respect to England), New Zealand aligned with the Allies. New Zealand played an important role, not by bringing all its troops back only to fight in the pacific, but rather by tying itself closely to its allies, and helping them in the best means that was thought at the time to be possible.

In the same way today, if New Zealand wants to exercise it's sovereignty to defend itself in an effective manner, it should rejoin ANZUS and enhance its forces in a specialized manner to be able to effectively assist the US and Australia, not just in its territory, but also other territories (which will also enable capabilities to be enhanced through real battlefield experience rather than notional). The most effective way to do that is by channeling funds into creating a few useful world class capabilities, rather than lots of mediocre ones. New Zealand then will be respected - in any given world crises, New Zealands sovereign decision whether or not to take part with the Australians or Americans (or anyone else), will have impact, because New Zealand would then have the capability to contribute something useful / world class, instead of something pathetic.
 
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